something evolutionists can not explain

Originally posted by Misfit
You rrrrrreally want to learn a bit about thermostats before claiming that one again.

I know how a thermostat works, thank you.

If you don't think a thermostat 'feels', would you please explain why you think it doesn't?

That would probably involve a definition of 'feeling', something overdue in this thread.

Go on, then... Gosh, maybe this conversation will get interesting after all.

Edited to eliminate the redundancy of probability.

[edit on 21/8/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by Misfit
You rrrrrreally want to learn a bit about thermostats before claiming that one again.

I know how a thermostat works, thank you.

If you don't think a thermostat 'feels', would you please explain why you think it doesn't?

That would probably involve a definition of 'feeling', something overdue in this thread.

Go on, then... Gosh, maybe this conversation will get interesting after all.

Edited to eliminate the redundancy of probability.

[edit on 21/8/09 by Astyanax]

if i snap my thermomitor, will it "feel" the pain? perhaps we should form civil rights groups for your precious thermomitors

reply to post by Spiritfilled

So that's the kind of thing you think is funny, eh? I wonder who else is laughing.

A thermometer (please note the spelling, it isn't really that hard) is not a thermostat.

But yes, a thermometer 'feels' heat in the sense that it reacts to it. Unlike a thermostat, however, there is no feedback function unless you count the human interpretation of the readout. A thermostat, by comparison, is autonomous and therefore furnishes a better example of what we are talking about.

What is so special and different about consciousness? You keep talking about it all the time, but you don't seem to be able to explain what it is, why matter cannot - in your clearly wrong opinion - attain it, or even why it's important.

Are you conscious? What does that mean, exactly?

You're in way over your head here, pal. Amazing that you don't even seem to know it.

[edit on 22/8/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

So that's the kind of thing you think is funny, eh? I wonder who else is laughing.

A thermometer (please note the spelling, it isn't really that hard) is not a thermostat.

But yes, a thermometer 'feels' heat in the sense that it reacts to it. Unlike a thermostat, however, there is no feedback function unless you count the human interpretation of the readout. A thermostat, by comparison, is autonomous and therefore furnishes a better example of what we are talking about.

What is so special and different about consciousness? You keep talking about it all the time, but you don't seem to be able to explain what it is, why matter cannot, in your clearly wrong opinion, attain it (you're clearly wrong there), or even why it's important. Are you conscious? What does that mean, exactly?

You're in way over your head here, pal. Amazing that you don't even seem to know it.

consciousness = awareness/ability to feel.

a thermometer reacts chemically, but is not aware.
a computer calculates, but has no awareness that it is doing so
water boils into steam, but is not aware of this.

it would all be pure unfeeling unknowing motion and reaction without spirit.
spirit is what gives humans and animals their awareness.

Do people actually realise they are feeding a troll here?

I mean obviously the OP is a nutjob. How else can you explain 7 pages and only 2 flags

Stop feeding him, he's getting fat

Ive only got one more thing to say to you OP...and I think its some up everyones thoughts about this pathetic excuse for a thread

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a7c80c4668eb.jpg[/atsimg]

Goodbye

reply to post by Spiritfilled

Now we're rolling.

consciousness = awareness/ability to feel.

Awareness is a synonym for consciousness, so that doesn't get us anywhere. Define 'feeling'.

And explain how it relates to consciousness.

Spirit is a meaningless word. If you think it has a meaning - apart from (a) a metaphorical one and (b) a synonym for a volatile liquid substance - define the meaning.

Please don't post dictionary definitions. I already own a dictionary - in fact, several. Let's have a proper explanation of what you mean by these terms.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


you just cant admit defeat

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

you just cant admit defeat

No, no......

Your thread hasnt achieved anything....if you want to know how to right a good thread check out Internos, jkrog or Schrodingers dogs threads....they are well written

Yours is garbage

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

you just cant admit defeat

No, no......

Your thread hasnt achieved anything....if you want to know how to right a good thread check out Internos, jkrog or Schrodingers dogs threads....they are well written

Yours is garbage

UH so we are not comprised of matter?

seems self evident that combined matter can produce a conscious entity.

USUALLY... Some cases, not so much

reply to post by Astyanax


"feeling" is the ability to notice something and "feel/perceive" a sensation (pain, pleasure, etc) which will differ according to the type of stimulus.

awareness cannot be defined with words, except you know you have it. you are aware that you exist, whereas a computer, rock, or tree is not aware of this.

reply to post by mental modulator


so the molecules magically gain the power to feel things, and be aware of themselves?

....


matter is DEAD and UNCONSCIOUS, and will always be! no matter how cool an arrangement of molecules you make THEY ARE WITHOUT LIFE!

reply to post by Spiritfilled


Feeling is most often defined as the perception of touch (otherwise it's talking about emotion).


Here's a question for you OP, if the brain is not the source of consciousness, why is it that consciousness can be altered directly by altering the brain. If it's not the brain, then why is it that drugs lead to and altered state of mind, brain damage can change peoples capacities and personalities drastically.

And how is it that 1 consciousness can be divided into 2 independent consciousnesses in one body with split brain patients - one arm is literally given a will of it's own that can be characterised as even having a personality unique from the other.

The spirit hypothesis doesn't add up.

reply to post by Welfhard


[Edit]
with regards to the definition of feeling, i'm talking about emotional feeling, AND feeling "sensations" such as touch. both of them are perceived by our consciousness, wheras a computer cannot feel emotion or percieve touch (it can record and respond to touch, but it will not be consciously aware of the fact that it was touched since it has no spirit.
[edit/]

the spirit commands the body by means of using the brain as a "control panel" of sorts, from whence it issues its commands.
damaging the brain is like damaging the control panel. the spirit cannot use it as effectively, and the body function is impaired.

double personality people are possessed by demons, weird as that may sound.




[edit on 22-8-2009 by Spiritfilled]

reply to post by Spiritfilled

double personality people are possessed by demons, weird as that may sound.

NOPE! Not even close.

I'm not talking about dual or multiple personality people because that is fractured mind. Split brain on the other hand is when the brain's two hemispheres are divided. The functions of the brain are all localised with, for example, the motor cortex on the right hemisphere controlling the left side of the body.

To use the control analogy, the functions are grouped by each side of the control panel. Split brain patients will have split control panels yet all the functions will be intact. So there is no reason why a spirit wouldn't control to halves of one control panel - given the structure of the brain, it has to anyway.

The problem arises when one arm suddenly has a will and consciousness not in accordance with the other and can even conflict.

There is no reason that that would happen if consciousness was a spiritual thing because the functions are intact on the control panel. Perhaps the spirit itself becomes divided into two separate agencies.


What the spirit model also doesn't reconcile is how consciousness and personality could possible be altered by brain damage if the brain is just a tool for perception and bodily control.

with regards to the definition of feeling, i'm talking about emotional feeling, AND feeling "sensations" such as touch. both of them are perceived by our consciousness, wheras a computer cannot feel emotion or percieve touch (it can record and respond to touch, but it will not be consciously aware of the fact that it was touched since it has no spirit.

You think a computer is not aware of things? My PC can inform me of the state of it's components, temperature of CPU, content of a DVD, etc. The computer has to sense these things (which in itself require an awareness) to then be able to inform me.

Plus a computer is a very very poor analogy to a human brain. Where a computer may have upwards of 4 processors, we have thousands working in parallel.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


brain damage will inhibit a person from being able to live normal, i don't deny that. the persons spirit cannot effectively command the body if the brain is wired wrong so that the signals go to the wrong area of the body.

have you ever seen a tub that has the hot and cold reversed? you try to get cold water, but hot comes out when you turn the knob. likewise, when the brain is wired backwards, the guy's spirit essence can want his left hand to move, but his right hand twitches instead, because the wiring is wrong. the wrong neurons are wired to the wrong body parts.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by Spiritfilled

 

with regards to the definition of feeling, i'm talking about emotional feeling, AND feeling "sensations" such as touch. both of them are perceived by our consciousness, wheras a computer cannot feel emotion or percieve touch (it can record and respond to touch, but it will not be consciously aware of the fact that it was touched since it has no spirit.

You think a computer is not aware of things? My PC can inform me of the state of it's components, temperature of CPU, content of a DVD, etc. The computer has to sense these things (which in itself require an awareness) to then be able to inform me.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

it records the state of its component in binary code and then displays the visual cues to the monitor that it was programmed to displat, but it is not consciously aware of what its components are like. no, it does not "feel" that its ram is 3gb, its simply sends out electricity, and records the amount of electricity that comes back. it is not conscious of its cpu overheating, as we are of our arm being pinched.
but i'm off to bed now, so i won't reply for 7 or so hours.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Spiritfilled]

reply to post by Spiritfilled

brain damage will inhibit a person from being able to live normal, i don't deny that. the persons spirit cannot effectively command the body if the brain is wired wrong so that the signals go to the wrong area of the body.

We aren't talking about simply being handicapped here, we are talking alterations to mind, personality and consciousness.

it records the state of its component in binary code and then displays the visual cues to the monitor that it was programmed to displat, but it is not consciously aware of what its components are like. no, it does not "feel" that its ram is 3gb, its simply sends out electricity, and records the amount of electricity that comes back.

You say "feel" but to take a recording of an external or internal state of something and then process that information is feeling, and it's thinking too.

it is not conscious of its cpu overheating, as we are of our arm being pinched.

Well when your arm is pinched, a reflex kicks in, and unconscious movement - in fact most of what we do in terms of behaviour we are unconscious of.

So you keep using "feel" and "consciousness" like it has some other definition.

More and more frequently, human beings tend to place a separation between the physics of our universe and the spirituality of it.
There is no difference. Only different sides of the same coin.
Yes, according to our definition, inanimate objects are not conscious.
No more so than the individual cells which make up our bodies.
It is however, abundantly apparent that the collective of cells, creates us, which is in fact aware, and conscious.
The universe is no different.
Simply because one does not understand the associations between what we call consciousness, and that which may be a different type of consciousness, one might assume that nothing else exist that we do not know of.
That is an extremely illogical and arrogant standpoint.

Matter, individually, may not be conscious from our point of view, but collectives of said matter surely are capable of it. The parts do not define the whole, and the whole does not define the parts.
We are something more than what we can even understand at this point.
So more or less, everyone is simultaneously correct and incorrect.
It all depends on viewpoint.

Once again, I must insist, that you make some relevant contribution, instead of reiterating and altering previous statements. Despite the fact that the terminology of "troll" has been used, I see someone who is actually very limited in their scope, and could use a bit of spiritual awakening, to broaden their reference.
I will assist you with that, if you are willing to be open minded.
If you are going to bray like an ass, then this point is immaterial, and you may as well carry on and continue to make yourself appear ignorant of anything other than yourself.
Anthropocentric, describes your character to a T.
Prove me Wrong Spiritfilled and contribute something original.

Spiritfilled you must have must have missed this. Please explain this one. Is this the belief you you have so much faith in.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ. know you know, you must turn to God and repent. be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

CHRISTIANITY
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever, if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood & telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul, that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake, to eat from a magical tree,... yeah makes perfect sense.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by acrux]