something evolutionists can not explain

evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

evolutionist cannot get around this simple point. we are conscious of our surroundings, and can feel joy and pain. we are aware of our existance.

even with the most advanced technology, the world will not be able to create a computer that can fell pain and pleasure, nor be aware of its own existance. It may be programmed to act human in every way, however it will never be anything other than a clever assembly of lifeless atoms.

if we humans are made of matter only, as the evolutionists suppose, then we would not be able to feel anything, any pain or pleasure, or be aware of our existance.

the fact is, that we as humans have a nonmaterial part of us called a spirit. all animals that are conscious have a spirit as well. This enables us to feel pain and pleasure, and be self aware.

we are more than just a complex arrangement of matter. a human is a merger of spirit controlling matter.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

know you know, you must turn to God and repent.

be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

Simply because the soul exists, does not mean it comes from God. There are any number of different theories that could explain this phenomina.

For the record I don't believe in Evolution, at least not that textbook example. I also don 't believe in any sort of monotheistic God, including Jesus.

IMO Earth is sort of a testing ground in a series of progressive tests. There are multiple different realities and dimensions where beings exist, this seems to be the bridge between the "matter" and "light" dimensions.

Let's not forget that evolutionists and creationists are not the only ones who can be right in this. As far as I am concerned we will never know the answer as we are limited by the vehicle which is the human body.

It can only do so much.

~Keeper

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

Are you psychic or something? How could you ever know this?

even with the most advanced technology, the world will not be able to create a computer that can fell pain and pleasure, nor be aware of its own existence. It may be programmed to act human in every way, however it will never be anything other than a clever assembly of lifeless atoms.

Can you prove to me that you're conscious? It's harder than you think.

if we humans are made of matter only, as the evolutionists suppose, then we would not be able to feel anything, any pain or pleasure, or be aware of our existence.

That's just an assumption.

the fact is, that we as humans have a nonmaterial part of us called a spirit. all animals that are conscious have a spirit as well. This enables us to feel pain and pleasure, and be self aware.

Prove it. Show me a spirit.

evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

Perhaps, but if you think about it, isn't a "Christ" figure something of an evolved being? A cross between an enlightened man and a deity designed to do a certain job? That's evolution. Change over time that adapts to new environments.

know you know, you must turn to God and repent.

Fortunately for me, I don't need to repent, since I've never sinned. Since theoretically I could only have lived my life according to the way "God" created it and controls it, how could I have sinned? Free will? I don't think so. What kind of free will does anyone have if they're presented with a deck of cards that are already stacked?

There's your freedom and forgiveness. When you finally realize that it's impossible to sin if you exist, because it HAS TO BE all part of the overall plan. So you get to go to Heaven, if you want. You can thank me later.

How do you know that you are conscious?

How sure are you that you are not just a very complicated and sophisticated set of rules and subroutines reacting to stimuli - gathering knowledge (data) and acting on instinct?

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

MATTER IS NOT CONSCIOUS, NOR CAN IT BECOME CONSCIOUS

evolutionist cannot get around this simple point. we are conscious of our surroundings, and can feel joy and pain. we are aware of our existance.

*raises hand*

Um... yeah... ok... I'm an evolutionist, and you're wrong. Or, more to the point, you have a lack of understanding of the theory of evolution. Evolution deals with systems, not consciousness, even in the case of biological systems as I assume you are concerned with here. It isn't that we cannot get around it, it is quite simply that consciousness is a separate matter entirely. Also, I would like to ask if you are an advanced AI or some sort of energy being? You appear to be conscious, and I am guessing based on your prose style and emphasis on certain subjects that you are capable of feeling, so by your own logic, you must either not be made of matter, or your logic is flawed. Perhaps what you meant to say was that we do not yet understand what causes consciousness, nor how to reproduce it except through biological reproduction? Please elucidate further, if you would, as I find your post to be most perplexing and I would like to think that as a rational thinking being, who is posting on a site where "deny ignorance" is the byword, that you would prefer clarity to obfuscation.

Thank you,
-PsychoHazard

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionists have never been able to get around this one simple point (actually there are countless points they cannot get around, but that is beyond the scope of this thread) the fact is...

Should we start talking about the things creationists can't "get around"?

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolutionist cannot get around this simple point. we are conscious of our surroundings, and can feel joy and pain. we are aware of our existance.

even with the most advanced technology, the world will not be able to create a computer that can fell pain and pleasure, nor be aware of its own existance. It may be programmed to act human in every way, however it will never be anything other than a clever assembly of lifeless atoms.

And what exactly do you think you are? Take a tissue sample. Skin cells, liver cells, brain cells, kidney cells, you pick. Start looking at them closer and you'll see they're made up of these little things science calls "molecules". Look just a bit closer at these molecules, and you'll see that they're made up of even smaller things we call "atoms" (not Adams). Look even closer still at these atoms, and you'll see that they're made up of even smaller things we call protons and electrons.

And guess what, the electrons in your brain cells are the same electrons that make up the atoms, which make up the molecules, that make up your coffee table. You, Spiritfilled, are nothing more than a clever assembly of particles. Whether those particles are lifeless however, can't be proven by either side of the dogmatic fence.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
if we humans are made of matter only, as the evolutionists suppose, then we would not be able to feel anything, any pain or pleasure, or be aware of our existance.

These "senses" that you're illogically stuck on, are nothing more than interpretations of data. You prick your finger with a needle. Nerve endings in your fingers sense that a needle has just pricked you, and convey this information, via a series of electrical impulses through your nervous system to your brain. You brain interprets these electrical impulses, and acts accordingly. Since the impulses (think Morse code) indicate a foreign object is penetrating the epidermis, the brain reacts by taking action necessary to stop the event. It interprets these signals as "pain". Because we don't like pain, we pull our finger back, away from the needle.

Now, think of your thermostat in your home. Much like your finger, it senses the ambient air temperature. When it gets too cold, it sends an electrical impulse to your furnace. Your furnace interprets this impulse as an indication that it's too cold. Since your thermostat doesn't like it too cold, the furnace kicks on and warms the place up. Savvy?

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
the fact is, that we as humans have a nonmaterial part of us called a spirit. all animals that are conscious have a spirit as well. This enables us to feel pain and pleasure, and be self aware.

Uh, no, that's the nerve endings that enables you to feel pain and pleasure. An arrangement of protons and electrons of sufficient complexity results in sentience, which allows you to be self aware.

My neighbor is paralyzed, and can't feel anything. He's numb from the jaw down. Now, I'm almost certain he's human, and I'm pretty sure he's conscious. Are you telling me he doesn't have a spirit because he can't feel pain or pleasure?

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
we are more than just a complex arrangement of matter. a human is a merger of spirit controlling matter.

I can't disprove it, in fact I tend to agree with this (not the way you do however, but that's ok), however you can't prove it either. This is an opinion requiring faith.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.

Got a source? Honestly, a little coffee just came out of my nose.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
know you know, you must turn to God and repent.

Or what? Burn for eternity in a lake of fire? Great guy this god of yours. Don't worry about me though, my god is a little more laid back. You better watch your back though, because yours seems a bit spiteful and vindictive.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

Hey, a perfect opportunity for a Baltarism:
God is a force, he's not on anyone's side. Good and evil, we created those.

[edit on 8/19/2009 by Unit541]

As an evolutionist, I don't recall ever being tasked with explaining consciousness. Isn't that a philosophical quest?

Just my 2-cents

Originally posted by Nohup
There's your freedom and forgiveness. When you finally realize that it's impossible to sin if you exist, because it HAS TO BE all part of the overall plan. So you get to go to Heaven, if you want. You can thank me later.

Sorry, couldn't resist! Another Baltarism! Exactly! If God created us, and God is perfect, then we couldn't be anything but perfect. Exactly the way we are, warts and all.

Maybe Baltar was right... Maybe God is the one who should get in his chariot and fly down here, and beg for our forgiveness!

IMO...

Neurons = Matter.

Neurons + Electricity = Consciousness.

Originally posted by Spiritfilled
evolution is part of a great satanic conspiracy to turn the world away from christ.
know you know, you must turn to God and repent.
be saved from this evil world in Jesus name!

Why is it that when science can not fully expain or understand something, it surely must be of God?

More so, of this thread, your last three lines show that you aren't really interested in your topic, but started this thread merely to proselytize to the forum.

reply to post by Spiritfilled


Just an example of how different variations of Christianity teach this differently. Im not religious btw.

The stance of the Catholic church on the matter is that Darwin's theory of evolution is correct in explaining how mankind has gotten to where we are today and that the soul is the spiritual element in our bodies that can interact with God.

Are you trying to say that evolution is incorrect? Or just that consciousness had to be donated by the divine?

Because our brains had to evolve to the point of being able to handle consciousness.. then it wouldn't have been a hard thing to happen with the way nature works.

But, each to their own beliefs.

How do you know that you are conscious?

How sure are you that you are not just a very complicated and sophisticated set of rules and subroutines reacting to stimuli - gathering knowledge (data) and acting on instinct?

I don't know about them but I know im conscious because I can think about that question from a number of different perspectives and then come back with this answer.

The thing I don't get from an evolutionists stand is how to get around the entropy law from thermodynamics, where over time things become more and more unorganized and less sophisticated, and yet evolution would tell you that over time an organized system of atoms and molecules will "adapt" and become more and more organized and complex over time. Evolution completely defies the law of entropy, which applies to any and all systems, so you can't simply categorize evolution in different systems to avoid this arguement.

Evolution makes a lot of sense but there are some very fundamental laws that say it can't happen like this. In fact, I've heard some make the claim that our very own DNA is slowly decaying as we speak and, if given enough time, would get to the point where we erode away as a human-being.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by Gdc934]

reply to post by Gdc934


Nope. Because random mutations happen. And there, my friend, is your entropy.



I don't think it's very complicated, but to each their own.

Something no creationist has ever been able to explain:

In every depiction of Adam and Eve, they have belly buttons. Why?

Originally posted by TheAftermath
Something no creationist has ever been able to explain:

In every depiction of Adam and Eve, they have belly buttons. Why?

AAAHHHHH !!! I had never given that thought !!

Thanks

Originally posted by Gdc934
The thing I don't get from an evolutionists stand is how to get around the entropy law from thermodynamics, where over time things become more and more unorganized and less sophisticated, and yet evolution would tell you that over time an organized system of atoms and molecules will "adapt" and become more and more organized and complex over time. Evolution completely defies the law of entropy, which applies to any and all systems, so you can't simply categorize evolution in different systems to avoid this arguement.

Evolution makes a lot of sense but there are some very fundamental laws that say it can't happen like this. In fact, I've heard some make the claim that our very own DNA is slowly decaying as we speak and, if given enough time, would get to the point where we erode away as a human-being.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by Gdc934]

Check out this link for your answer:

www.asa3.org...

Is the Second Law violated by either mutation or natural selection, which are the major actions in neo-Darwinian evolution? No. And if an overall process of evolution is split into many small steps involving mutation followed by selection, each step is permitted by the Second Law, and so is the overall process.
A neo-Darwinian scenario with a one-way ratchet — with harmful mutations producing no major change in a population because organisms with these mutations are eliminated by selection, and neutral mutations able to survive selection, and rare beneficial mutations (facilitated by mechanisms such as gene duplication) preserved by selection — can produce genetic information and increasingly complex organisms. Therefore, it's wrong to claim that natural evolution cannot produce any increase of biological complexity. We can ask scientifically interesting questions about complexity — how much can be produced, how quickly, by what mechanisms, and can it be irreducible — but we should not waste time on unwarranted criticisms that claim the Second Law as justification.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Ha ha, really? If you don't mind, could you please explain to me your version of entropy? Because "random mutations" could not account for the infinite amount of adaptations and advancement a lifeform would have to make in order to develop into something like us. Something would not mutate into something more complex, it would go the other way around, according to entropy.

reply to post by Aggie Man


Nice find. had not read that before posting my personal beliefs. I will look further into this...

Originally posted by Gdc934
The thing I don't get from an evolutionists stand is how to get around the entropy law from thermodynamics, where over time things become more and more unorganized and less sophisticated, and yet evolution would tell you that over time an organized system of atoms and molecules will "adapt" and become more and more organized and complex over time. Evolution completely defies the law of entropy, which applies to any and all systems, so you can't simply categorize evolution in different systems to avoid this arguement.

Evolution makes a lot of sense but there are some very fundamental laws that say it can't happen like this. In fact, I've heard some make the claim that our very own DNA is slowly decaying as we speak and, if given enough time, would get to the point where we erode away as a human-being.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by Gdc934]

So, you're using a scientific "law", decided upon by man, to make an argument against itself?

You said it yourself: science cannot explain everything. The biggest difference between science and religion, is that where science leaves gaps in explanation, religion does not. Instead, it just fills them in with excuses.

Religion was born from fear. Fear of the unknown. There's a lot of things man did not, does not, and will not understand. Not understanding something means you can't control it. So, anything nut understood was attributed to god. It's the universal cure for lack of understanding. Or, have we simply misinterpreted the information our ancestors have left behind for us? Perhaps they have the whole story, we're just not reading it correctly, or haven't looked in the right places.

Whatever the truth, religion has turned out to be the single most effective tool for control and manipulation ever conceptualized. And that, my friends, even the pope couldn't argue away.

Originally posted by Gdc934
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

Ha ha, really? If you don't mind, could you please explain to me your version of entropy? Because "random mutations" could not account for the infinite amount of adaptations and advancement a lifeform would have to make in order to develop into something like us. Something would not mutate into something more complex, it would go the other way around, according to entropy.

I tend to disagree. You're comparing entropy to the ground state. I'm comparing it to the previous state. So yes it may become more complex, but that's due to destruction of the previous form. And, evolutionarily speaking, we are less complex than species which evolved long before us. Look at most insects, they are evolutionarily perfect and have hardly mutated in millions of years.

Again, I think if you believe in creation your mind is kind of stuck there and it's hard to look at things without considering that we "must have been created to become this complex." I think chaos theory allows for the random creation of us, at least once in the universe, once in infinity. Because it happened.

I've seen little evidence to support creationism. And if we were created, the creator is long gone.