Why can’t Creationists teach an alternative? Are the ‘free thinkers’ - atheists scared of som

reply to post by Welfhard


As LIFE as my Witness, I am telling you the Truth.

To be accused of talking Crap is very sad, especially when I am telling the Truth!

I have nothing at all to gain by telling you these things, but have instead everything to loose...

But at the end of the Day I do know the Truth....

This is sufficient as followers are Not what I desire...

Perhaps you should research NDE's and Death Experiences when and if you get the chance.

You may find a mixture of crap and truth, but I am sure you will work it out.

I am also involved in R&D with Interactive Interfaces with the Mind.

In time I will be opening a Post on this subject, and shall reveal all.

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

For goodness sake man! Does no one around here read signatures? Do I really need to repeat mine in my post.

If you proclaim absolute truth, you are wrong!

Quod Gratis asseritur, Gratis negatur... Think about it.

I'm not going to take your claims on faith because I am no fool.

Perhaps you should research NDE's and Death Experiences when and if you get the chance.

Oh you mean those trippy experiences some people have as their brains shut down, lobe by lobe? The one's with the recreatable sensations and experiences in lab conditions. Yea, that's well worth investigation - which is why skeptics have investigated them and have found them wanting.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Deaf Alien


I am not sure if you understood me or not...

but anyway you raise an interesting question...

And you still come to the question of wether or not God was created.

The problem today is, that How do you define what God or god is ???

Everyone has a different interpretation ???

I personally Don't see a god, as a person (human) in sugar candy mountain, waving a magic wand, punishing bad little ones, or offering a lolly scramble to the good little brain washed ones do you ???

But I do see "Consciousness" or "Awareness" or "The LIFE" as being the root underlying The All, that has Created what we experience, no matter what our interpretation or beliefs may be...

There exists whether we like it or Not, Laws of Physics for example, and something produced this structure of laws.... Or you and I would be unable to even exist let alone debate this subject....

reply to post by Welfhard


You can make all the fun you like, regarding this, but One fact remains...

You can't escape finding out for yourself..

I don't say this with malice, but with understanding, beyond your own at this stage, knowing that one day, perhaps very soon, you shall know what I know of death so called, and hopefully you will come to know more than myself...

Isn't it funny how people fear death so much, when in fact there is Nothing at all to fear ???

Are people really frightened of Nothing ???

Such strange behaviour indeed ....

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


I might have not understood your question.

But you said

Isn't it funny that some are terrified of the possibility, that they had to be Created, because they could Not Create themselves.

Who are terrified? Can you give me some examples? Is this your opinion?

Yes, everyone has a different definition of what "God" is.

However,

But I do see "Consciousness" or "Awareness" or "The LIFE" as being the root underlying The All, that has Created what we experience, no matter what our interpretation or beliefs may be...

Why does it have to be that we are created? Why does it have to be ONLY ONE GOD?

Why can't we all be eternal beings? Why can't it be that we all together or unified be this "one God"?

Yes, we all create our experiences, but isn't it possible that we were never created ourselves?

There exists whether we like it or Not, Laws of Physics for example, and something produced this structure of laws.... Or you and I would be unable to even exist let alone debate this subject.

Mathematics and laws of physics exist in and of themselves. We only discover them.

Stephen Hawking once said, "what breathe fire in the equations?" Indeed.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Why can't we all be eternal beings?

.....

OK, so I'm no fundi, you were confused....

And now I am?


Quite a balanced question above, (from an Atheist???)


Please clarify/enLIGHTen OT....


I agree, we are all eternal beings, well kinda...we had a beginning, but no ending....


I think?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

OK, so I'm no fundi, you were confused.... And now I am?

What??? Now Im confused

Quite a balanced question above, (from an Atheist???)

I am not an atheist but then again maybe I am. Don't pay any attention to my sig. It's something my very good friend always say.

I agree, we are all eternal beings, well kinda...we had a beginning, but no ending....

Okay, to be more clear, we did not have a beginning.

WARNING: heavy philosophical question here

If we had a beginning, then why did God wait an infinite amount of time to create us?

reply to post by Deaf Alien


DA, deep question....

are you assuming eternity has a PAST? waiting?


Could TIME be a matrix? and reality be eternity....?

Got to step out to think this through.....


UCANDOIT!

OT XFUNDI!

reply to post by OldThinker

are you assuming eternity has a PAST? waiting?

But you said we had a beginning. Correct?

Could TIME be a matrix? and reality be eternity

Wow, you are getting it!

Got to step out to think this through

I don't blame you

reply to post by Deaf Alien



yes WE had a beginning....why? becuase we are IN time....at least initially.

OT's glad he's getting it....could you tell my wife that?

reply to post by Deaf Alien


What I was getting at is that people can't accept, they have been created by something else, Yet they (humankind) did Not Create themselves...

It is my understanding of The Life or Consciousness (Singular). All that are of Consciousness, Not Flesh are like droplets of a single entity.

You can liken it to the Droplets of an Ocean or Lake.

The Droplets are hidden the Sea or Lake.

The Conscious state, we refer to as "I" is a "partition" of the One Consciousness or LIFE.

So Consciousness is Immortal, while the experience (the flesh in the universe) is mortal..

So what I am saying is that Your Consciousness or Awareness is Immortal.

Many fear this concept, and pretend that only the flesh exists, but this is Self Deception of the greatest kind !

But all find out in the end, that Consciousness or Awareness called The LIFE is already Immortal.

How the hell, do you bury Consciousness, when it is Not part of the Universe, but instead is of a Parallel World ???

No One can change this Fact by either pretending or believing this is Not the case....

Perhaps those who can't accept, their Consciousness or Awareness, fear Immortality, and try to prove to the bitter end, and try to convince themselves, that when they die they escape reality, by not being Aware any longer...

I guess they find their answer in the end....

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

You can make all the fun you like, regarding this, but One Conjecture remains...

You can't escape finding out for yourself..

Yup.

Isn't it funny how people fear death so much, when in fact there is Nothing at all to fear ???

Not at all. People fear death, not because they choose to but rather it's a deeply imprinted instinct from the R-Complex which resounds as strongly in most of us as love and caring for our children.

I'm not actually making fun, here. I say this, 1) show me some evidence to verify what you claim to have happened to you actually did and is not some delusion. And 2) I'm not at all unfamiliar with NED's and OBE's. I have actually had an OBE. But what is clear is that a very self-apparent explanation that science offers.

The reality we experience is just a perception as you are aware. When our sensing and perceiving faculties are faulty, reality appears to take a bizarre shift dependant on the faults going on. Then apply the Observer-Expectancy Effect to that apparent reality shift and what do you get???
People claiming to have met their God (of countless religions) and deceased family members.

Yea, I'm remaining skeptical on this one.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by OldThinker

yes WE had a beginning....why? becuase we are IN time....at least initially.

In WHAT time? Why not one hour ago? Why not yesterday? Tomorrow? Millions of years ago? Etc, Etc.

OT's glad he's getting it....could you tell my wife that?

On the matter of morals.

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


in that case welcome to being an atheist!

an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the theist god, the abrahamic one, i am that i am. To quote a notable evolutionist 'you agree, you're just saying it wrong!'

Sure something #like# god might exist, we might be part of a super complex system of logic which in itself is selfaware and #could# be called 'god' but that's like saying a screwdriver might have a large flat surface attached to a handle for pusing into the ground - call a spade a spade and be done with it!

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

The Conscious state, we refer to as "I" is a "partition" of the One Consciousness or LIFE.

But consciousness isn't a state - it's a thing of degree. Some creatures are more conscious than others. And all that have some degree of consciousness have a brain.

The bigger the brain (compared to the size of the organism) the more conscious it is capable of being (as a general rule). And we aren't always so conscious either. Consider an infant or a sleeping person. Our brains have to develop first an then aren't even capable of being very conscious for long. Fatigue is the brain struggling to maintain that level - a feeling I'm having right now in fact.

It's not some cosmic essence that permeates us all, it's produced within us - within our brains.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

What I was getting at is that people can't accept, they have been created by something else

Okay, some people don't accept that, you got that right. But that is far cry from being terrified.

Yet they (humankind) did Not Create themselves.

Well of course humans did not create themselves. What we are talking about here is our very own beings, our souls, our existence.

It is my understanding of The Life or Consciousness (Singular). All that are of Consciousness, Not Flesh are like droplets of a single entity.

Now see you are defeating your own argument. If it was all ONE consciousness, then we were NEVER created. We were just "separated".

So Consciousness is Immortal, while the experience (the flesh in the universe) is mortal.. So what I am saying is that Your Consciousness or Awareness is Immortal.

Well, of course! I am not talking about human beings. I am talking about our very own beings.

Why do you assert that there must be a single consciousness? One single God?

I guess they find their answer in the end.

Well of course yes. What they are going to find out is that they have always been eternal.

Sorry, I'm not up to my best tonight. Few people are demanding my attention lol.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by OldThinker

 

yes WE had a beginning....why? becuase we are IN time....at least initially.

In WHAT time? .....

not WHAT time....but TIME itself.....

Eternity has NO time, no past, present or future....


i.e. everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] [a]from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8

slain 'before' the foundation/creation of the world....


before...in TIME'S perspective....


but in reality IN eternity

reply to post by Welfhard


How do I prove this to you as it is yourself that is sceptical based on what you don't know.

Don't get me wrong I am NOT against you !

You wrote....

The reality we experience is just a perception as you are aware.

I agree with this.

When our sensing and perceiving faculties are faulty,

How do you know that Awareness or Consciousness which is The LIFE of YOU
is Faulty ???

Can you prove to me you are correct apart from referring to other people in what they interpret as theory or even fact ???

You see All is a matter of Interpretation and Not really factual at all.

Yes I am involved with Scientific R&D but the public at large have a strange interpretation of the Scientific Community, don't they ???

But this is why we refer to Science in having Theories.... But this is perfectly normal and Not negative in any way.

I guess we will never have all knowledge while experiencing what you know in the way of your Universal Environment. The Scientific community has never laid any claim to knowing All and in a million years we will still be learning Hopefully anyway.

reality appears to take a bizarre shift dependant on the faults going on. Then apply the Observer-Expectancy Effect to that apparent reality shift and what do you get???

Now I could be tempted to say you are talking Crap, as I never had time to expect anything at all !

I certainly did Not experience what is propagated by religion or Science for that matter, nor did I experience what you suggest... LOL...

In fact as I have said before, and in other threads, that I now have a Library of perhaps 50,000 Drawings (Geometric) explaining the Construct and Processing System, that produces your so called universe and experience.

So you see the "little" knowledge (involving 50,000 Geometric Drawings of the Technical Side) I do have, is Not a just a fleeting thought.

I also have a full explanation on how All exists...

But that is another story for later.

However there is something behind, what has produced your experience....

[edit on 18-8-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

How do you know that Awareness or Consciousness which is The LIFE of YOU
is Faulty ?

No, you're not listening! Not the "awareness or consciousness" is faulty but the systems that produce this property. This isn't hard to understand. NDEs and DEs both feature the heart stopping or something similar and without oxygen our brains falter.

The Scientific community has never laid any claim to knowing All and in a million years we will still be learning Hopefully anyway.

"Of course science doesn't know everything - if it did it would stop."
- Dara O' Briain.

Now I could be tempted to say you are talking Crap, as I never had time to expect anything at all !

Well fine, not you then. Some people do have NDE's without expectations and don't meet relatives or a god of a particular religion. But the OE effect is a common theme in all the anecdotes about NDE's you hear where people go on about meeting Jesus or whatever.

However there is something behind, what has produced your experience.

Yea and it's a big lump of grey-pink sitting in the centre of your skull. A remarkably compartmentalised to the point that all the thousands of features work both individually and co-operatively so that the whole thing reaches a point of awareness beyond simple detect and react.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Welfhard]