Help me out about Creation.....

is it just me or the thread lost its direction....the main point is that if the creator was me i wouldnt make my creations eat one another to live i would just choose another way round...like for exmple there is only need for water bla bla

i mean come on...many say god creating things able to choose etc etc...but beleive me there nothing to choose here....who got paws..teeth...venom....you get hungry...you kill and you eat

well if you were the creater,
then you would be all directions of time,
you would create things that are ready before you see them,
because time is just a thing to make yourself enjoy it.

well, if you are the truth,
you know that to be free as truth
you would have to have a place in you
that is still truth, but also not truth,
and cancels out the worst of what could be everything

why ?
because you have to be free, and to be free,
truth has to be everything, including what it's isn't
without leaving the truth.

that's why you made a small place in your being
where pain is allowed to come over you,
because there you will belief what isn't true,
cancel out worse
and you will carry the cross for your own glory

how do carry that cross ?
by not knowing it, because otherwise you coulnd't carry it,
the pain and struggle makes logic evolve.
that's why honesty gives us the believes to belief
in the right time, and let pain come upon us when it is needed.

that's why god created pain to come over himself for only a short time.

still unclear, isn't it ?
i know people want long answers,
so dont read this, just overlook it,
logic and god, they are one.



[edit on 1-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

im afraid yes..still unclear to me sry..


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5cb1aad1a223.jpg[/atsimg]

well, i don't know if you want it to be clear,
truth hurts us, it did to me every day.

i will tell you this,
you own to yourself
your own times
to be ready to understand our pain.

always remember, that god is just a name,
for truth
truth and logic are the same names.


a hint:
if truth is not free, it is subjected to a higher truth,
in the end absolute truth is free,
that's why it is alive.
we live in that paradox to return god/truth his glory of being everything,
including what he isn't, or he can't be free.

i know, its chinese
sorry, but need makes you understand,
truth is honest, be honest always, and you will grow,
boomerang effect,
always. that is the gospel.



[edit on 1-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by heineken
Many say without doubt that God is Love, he is only made of Love....now from what I can see ..a product reflects the ingredients and after watching several documentaries which shows God's product in motion unfortunately I can see very little of his Main Ingredient...Love..

I find it odd at times that unbelievers seek to tell Believers who and what 1) God is and 2) what the Scriptures really mean.

Your first mistake here, which then taints your whole argument, is that "God is Love, he is only made of Love...."

You, and so many others, define "love" based on what it means today.

"Man, dude did you see that new movie yet? It was awesome, I LOVED it"

"I really LOVE these new shoes!"

"Hey, I LOVE what you have done with the place!"

In english we have one word to express "love" yet within the Biblical languages we have several words to express it thus leading to a better understanding of it.

When Scripture declares that God is love it does not mean that God is "made of love" like some fluffy pie in the sky. Rather it means that God is the basis of Love but because God is first and foremost a HOLY God His Love is then a Holy Love. It then follows that His Judgments are then HOLY as is His Grace, His Words, His Sovereignty and also His Wrath.

Our love is NOT Holy but rather our love is self seeking because WE are selfish and full of pride.

So do not seek to label God with what you or I see as "love" because our love is far from being agape love.

Lastly, since a few documentaries have shown you the flaws in the supposed creation of God would a few documentaries of people overcoming difficulties because of God prove to you that God is then perfect???

Of course not. Why? Because your presuppositions have already been set that there is no God. You would attribute the success of those people to them alone.

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
I find it odd at times that unbelievers seek to tell Believers who and what 1) God is and 2) what the Scriptures really mean.

Yet I strangely enough find it odd that there are so many interpretations of the same scriptures.
All of which claim to be the one truth.

Your first mistake here, which then taints your whole argument, is that "God is Love, he is only made of Love...."

You, and so many others, define "love" based on what it means today.

"Man, dude did you see that new movie yet? It was awesome, I LOVED it"

"I really LOVE these new shoes!"

"Hey, I LOVE what you have done with the place!"

In english we have one word to express "love" yet within the Biblical languages we have several words to express it thus leading to a better understanding of it.

And yet when it suits their purposes, each and every splinter of christianity will use modern definitions at will to try to enforce their viewpoints.

When Scripture declares that God is love it does not mean that God is "made of love" like some fluffy pie in the sky. Rather it means that God is the basis of Love but because God is first and foremost a HOLY God His Love is then a Holy Love. It then follows that His Judgments are then HOLY as is His Grace, His Words, His Sovereignty and also His Wrath.

Opinions are purely individual. I would prefer to interpret as fluffy pie. I like fluffy and I LOVE pie...

Our love is NOT Holy but rather our love is self seeking because WE are selfish and full of pride.

Are you all-knowing ? How do you dare judge me/others if you are not.

So do not seek to label God with what you or I see as "love" because our love is far from being agape love.

I will promise not to label. If you do the same...

Lastly, since a few documentaries have shown you the flaws in the supposed creation of God would a few documentaries of people overcoming difficulties because of God prove to you that God is then perfect???

Of course not. Why? Because your presuppositions have already been set that there is no God. You would attribute the success of those people to them alone.

Again you make bold statements based on assumption. A BELIEF in anything can most certainly help the ones who believe it. However a belief is not reality until it becomes a provable fact.
Individual belief is in fact a good thing. Externally enforced belief is mind control. Be satisfied in your own heart and trust that others will come to see the rightness of your view. Stop lecturing on how all are wrong but you.

Originally posted by EdCase512

Again you make bold statements based on assumption. A BELIEF in anything can most certainly help the ones who believe it. However a belief is not reality until it becomes a provable fact.
Individual belief is in fact a good thing. Externally enforced belief is mind control. Be satisfied in your own heart and trust that others will come to see the rightness of your view. Stop lecturing on how all are wrong but you.

So, a "belief is not reality until it becomes provable fact"? Do you believe that to be true?

To claim that I am wrong for judging others have you not judged me? Your statement is self refuting.

You then tell (lecture) me on how I should "Be satisfied in your own heart and trust that others will come to see the rightness of your view." And then immediately tell me to "Stop lecturing on how all are wrong but you"

Didn't you just state that people will come to see the rightness of my view?

You need to make up your mind, perhaps slow down and think before you reply. Stop the contradictions. Or am I wrong?

Thank you for at least taking the time to reply.

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

So, a "belief is not reality until it becomes provable fact"? Do you believe that to be true?

To claim that I am wrong for judging others have you not judged me? Your statement is self refuting.

You then tell (lecture) me on how I should "Be satisfied in your own heart and trust that others will come to see the rightness of your view." And then immediately tell me to "Stop lecturing on how all are wrong but you"

Didn't you just state that people will come to see the rightness of my view?

You need to make up your mind, perhaps slow down and think before you reply. Stop the contradictions. Or am I wrong?

Thank you for at least taking the time to reply.

I do not claim to know the truth. You do.
Belief is subjective, non-tangible and unprovable without factual undisputed proof.
Lecture ? no. Advise ? yes, for if you believe you know the truth then surely you believe others shall find it ?

Make up my mind ?
Horrific thought. A mind made up is a mind closed. I look at every point of view and with every new one I encounter MY view alters in some way..be it big or small.

You see contradiction because you choose to. I see otherwise.

Originally posted by EdCase512

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

So, a "belief is not reality until it becomes provable fact"? Do you believe that to be true?

To claim that I am wrong for judging others have you not judged me? Your statement is self refuting.

You then tell (lecture) me on how I should "Be satisfied in your own heart and trust that others will come to see the rightness of your view." And then immediately tell me to "Stop lecturing on how all are wrong but you"

Didn't you just state that people will come to see the rightness of my view?

You need to make up your mind, perhaps slow down and think before you reply. Stop the contradictions. Or am I wrong?

Thank you for at least taking the time to reply.

I do not claim to know the truth. You do.
Belief is subjective, non-tangible and unprovable without factual undisputed proof.
Lecture ? no. Advise ? yes, for if you believe you know the truth then surely you believe others shall find it ?

Make up my mind ?
Horrific thought. A mind made up is a mind closed. I look at every point of view and with every new one I encounter MY view alters in some way..be it big or small.

You see contradiction because you choose to. I see otherwise.

Edcase......I like you and my replies are here to hopefully help you, although you may not see them that way.

Many of your comments, while colorful, make no sense. They are illogical. For example you first state that you "do not claim to know the truth" and you then continue on to tell me about things that require "truth" and "proof" which means, at first reading, that you are claiming you do in fact know what is right or truthful thus contradiction between the two statements.

If "belief is subjective" can I then believe you're wrong and if I then state that, you would then agree with me, correct? If not then you're stating that my belief is incorrect which would then mean belief is not subjective.

Now you can believe as you desire but that belief must be based on logic and reason if not then it falls into skepticism but no skeptic is ever skeptical of skepticism......hence his or her world view fails.

Take care

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


well, that you search is clear,
but you say the other contradicts,
when you do too,

why ?

god is love, not because of words, but because of logic,
and i know you understand logic.

god has to be everything to be free,
it means he is one,

what is one loves himself, always
it means it understand himself to be good in every way,
it is not romantic, it is understanding
god doesn't love pain, he allows it as good

what is one doesn't give any other rule to himself,
then searching to be one, when you are still not

what is one, doesn't need anything other from you
then forgiveness and understanding, because
it brings you closer to the oneness he and we are.

what is one is righteousness because it is one

what is one doesn't take away from one,
because as one it is free

what is one, speaks love
what is growing towards one, speaks care,
and love not perfect

what is one, knows that before it is one,
you know nothing, and scriptures are a help,
they are not more holy then a person

god's law is not some sentences,
it is who he is is,
one.
the blessing of the torah.
no witnesses to accuse you.




[edit on 3-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

i still say that if i was god i would have thought of a different way for my creations to live..not eating each other for sure

would you break you legs,
if they were going to walk you into hell ?

that's what god is doing,
he breakes his legs
to avoid walking in pure hell of being every potential that can exsist.

reply to post by heineken


Well I'm sorry that this thread diverged, but I would like to stick to your original question if that's okay.

But first, I would like to say I think your question is a a little disingenuous. You could have simply asked why did God make animals eat other animals? Throwing in the I thought God was love part? It sounds more like you're just trying to bash God. Perhaps because you have an agenda.

Now, the reason I say this is because there is an answer to your question.
In fact the answer to your question occurs on the FIRST page of the Bible! Which is why I have my suspicions you see?

Now this is what Christians do when they attack evolution you know? They have no understanding and think they can debunk it. Experts have argued over this book for thousands of years and gotten nowhere on EITHER side.

You think you can convince people it isn't true without having even read the very first page?

Now, perhaps that's not the case. Perhaps your question was legitimate. So, I apologize first and will sincerely answer your question. But I hope you can understand, given the location of the answer to your question, why I would ask such a thing.

But first I want to say, don't flame me if you don't agree with the Bible answer because I'm not giving "my" personal answer first. I'm just stating what the book says and how it is "normally" interpreted.

Now the question. Why did God create animals to eat other animals? Answer. He didn't!

On the very FIRST page of the Bible it tells us God did create the world just like you wanted. The animals lived in peace and didn't kill each other. They didn't need to eat at all and never died, but if they did choose to eat they were vegetarians. Just like a real paradise. No need for food, but it's there if you want it in plant form.

When death entered the world they started eating each other basically because they had to.

Okay, from now on you can flame me because now I'll go into my view now of why this is.

If what the Bible says is true then when sin came into the world we were no longer in God's presence. Without his life sustaining presence basic physics set it. Entropy, which causes breakdown and decay, took over. Death entered the world. God wasn't here to continually pump more energy and life force into a world with a continually increasing population.

At this point animals and man started eating meat for the same reason they would eat meat if God doesn't exist, for energy.

Energy can't be created nor destroyed, only transformed. However, to transform 1 unit of energy it takes more than 1 unit of energy. So, no matter what you do, you will eventually run out one day.

So you must conserve what you have. You must be as efficient as possible with it. And you must compete for it! Eating animals that would die anyway is simply an option over letting their energy go to waste.

It's simply the rules of survival. Scarcity causes competition. Even if you don't want to compete you have to or you will die too soon because something else will take your share. Before producing offspring.

Also since everything is eating each other it also keeps the population down to the best competitors instead of overpopulating and exhausting the food supply and becoming diseased or extinct. If you think the world sucks now, wait until we cure death.

Now, one thing is if the Bible is real, the way it reads, it's also logical to conclude that many of those animals have died out by now because the Bible tells us something about the environment is now different after the flood. It doesn't really say what though. So, we don't even really know for sure what kind of animals they had back then except for a few if it's true.

Now, your second question. How animals pick what to be? Well, if evolution is true then they don't. They're just whatever they are due to genetics and random mutation.

If the Bible is real it's the same thing. You have no choice of what kind of animal you are. The Bible doesn't tell us how the animals all of a sudden become meat eaters.

However, the conclusion that most people come to is that there were always meat eaters and always vegetarians, but the meat eaters just simply didn't eat meat for some reason while in God's presence.

That basically humans always had the proper parts to eat meat, they just didn't until they were given permission by God. The Bible does say that humans were explicitly given permission. If that's true for the animals too or we're just left to assume they adapted I don't know.

But regardless if you believe in evolution or God or both the answer is the same. Animals never get to pick which they are. They just are.

So if you were trying to bash God or prove him wrong by claiming what you've claimed it didn't really work. According to the Bible meat eaters exist pretty much for the same reason evolution says so. If it makes God sound mean, perhaps, but then evolution is also just as cruel.

But from what we know about science we can state two things that are fact. One is that just because something is cruel and unfair doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And two, given the laws of science that we have what God did simply makes the most sense.

If everything was vegetarians we'd most likely run out of veggies because there would be no meat eaters to keep the vegi eating population down. Also, remember they didn't have our farming technology back then.

Now, humans possibly could all be vegi eaters only, but back then we may have starved to death long before we ever invented the farming tech to make that happen.


[edit on 3-9-2009 by tinfoilman]

The way I see it Love is only a byproduct like hate, it's just a part of the whole. To each their own right? some need love some need hate...just look for what you want to find and you will. Nothing is perfect, but the universe we've come to live in is only one dimension. It could be possible the emotion and stuff has an effect on other dimensions, but I don't think you'll know until you try and figure it out.

Who is to say this thing we call love now was always such? why do we think we can be so certain on the subject of very relative things?

OP asks (paraphrased) "why is there loveand evil if God is love and He is everywhere?"

Well, I guess my refute would be that yes God is love. Yes, you can lift a rock and find Him(not literally find a little man or somethin :lol. The point you are missing is Satan. They are like counterparts. Ying and Yangif you will. You can't have one without the other. How does one know what death is if having never lived? Get it?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com