84-year old Woman Smashed Into the Ground By Cops

Originally posted by starsyren
... She definitely used too much force given the situation ...

You got it right.
Too much force was used.

- The level of response must match the threat, not exceed it.
- Force becomes excessive when it exceeds that needed to assure one’s own safety


Cops looks like cowboys today.
They are so bad ass with teenagers/oldies and innocent ppl.

Absolutely disgusting.

Officers are trained to assess the situation, and then react, correct?

A barricade using the cruiser to block this lady in would have been sufficient, and provided for an attempt to talk the woman down, it would seem.

You can see the blatant dysfunction of a society in how they treat their elderly and their animals.

I think we just got a good dose on how America treats its elderly. If this were an isolated incident, then I could look the other way. However, this is becoming the norm.

Do I even need to address how we treat animals in this country? Mass produced, commercialized, slaughtered in mass for your personal convenience. It would be hilarious to see this same thing happen to the human race by another species. Of course...then it would be a tragedy. Then it would be evil. Then we would have to unite to destroy the Grand Threat that seeks to impose its will against the human race.

Unfortunately, we don't need an outside threat to inflict this sort of damage. We're doing it to ourselves.

reply to post by MegaCurious


I usually side with the police when it comes to these types of things, but this is blatant over use of force.

The cops messed up. and messed up bad...

ridiculous...i wouldnt doubt both those cops are rookies to-boot...


wonder what the reprocussion will be? there should be at least some sort of fine or suspension in pay...a lesson must be learned from this...

What the hell has happened to you people?! JHC, it doesn't matter if she's old, disabled, is having an 'episode' or what-not. She is a DANGER TO SOCIETY. The situation needs to be handled, at the discretion of the officer, to ensure that no harm comes to anyone, INCLUDING the officer.
YOU try to make a better decision in the circumstances given, with NO TIME for wieghing if-then options.

You know what, sometimes things happen unexpectedly, and people don't have the luxury of being able to sit back and think about if-then consequences.

DAMN IT! I AGREE that our society is going to hell, and that we have A LOT to bitch about, but JHC, there are those times when you just can't complain about what is done in a specific circumstance. I feel that this is one of those instances.

And don't give me that CRAP about 'What if it was you're grandma?'. Because I would STILL side with the actions of the officer!

Originally posted by eNumbra
Have you ever even held a police baton?

Yes and a baton would not be necessary either.

How many people here are LEOs? How many people here have ever been in a situation with a disoriented person of any age and sex with a weapon in hand? You don't know how you will react until the situation arises.

Having worked on locked down Alzheimers units I can tell you that some of these people can be very violent but they're so frail and easily re-directed that it only takes a moment to distract them or talk them out of relinquishing their weapon.

Again, there is no context for the video, all we have is a disoriented Alzheimer with a knife.

What I saw was 2 women with a shopping cart walk right past this elderly woman (on the side that she held the knife) and they were completely unconcerned. They glanced at her and her knife and kept walking...slowly, not running in panic. Apparently even generic Wal-Mart shoppers have more sense than the cops did in this situation.

Where is her family? Does she even have family?

A woman who identified herself as the victims family member is clearly seen on the video. She's trying to help her loved one and the cops are shooing her away.

What's with the knife? Is she looking for someone? Is she going to hurt them? Herself?

With dementia/Alzheimers she may have thought she was holding a spatula or a blanket. Delusions and hallucinations are common. The cops saw a citizen with a weapon. They didn't see a confused old woman who wasn't threatening anyone.

Do you understand how many questions there are when an LEO arrives on any scene?

Do you understand that they need to try to answer those questions before they wrestle someone to the ground? I don't get combat pay or hazardous duty pay but I'm frequently put in dangerous situations armed with nothing more than common sense. That one "tool" has served me well for 30 years. I manage to disarm people all the time without throwing them to the ground or causing bloodshed.

The force applied in this situation appears more than necessary because of the blood, and everyone's assumption than an 84 year old is brittle and helpless. Don't go putting words in my mouth here, I'm not saying she could have taken the officer, I'm saying you don't assume anything in any situation especially when weapons are involved.

While I agree that the elderly and dementia patients can be surprisingly strong, they usually are pretty frail and throwing them to the ground is never an option.

My point to all I've said remains what none of you seem to be able to comprehend; you will never be happy with the way LEOs respond. This was a terrible situation that would never have had a happy ending.

I disagree completely. This woman could have easily been disarmed without force or bloodshed. You're right in that I will never be happy with abusive, power-mad cops manhandling old ladies (or anyone).

The officer could have simply swiped away her walker, cane to diffuse the situation. She TRULY seemed to pose No threat whatsoever ... more to herself than anything, anyone else.

As a member above mentioned, I too typically side with the officer in these type situations, in that they don't really always know just what they're about to encounter, get into ... but in this particular case it would appear a clear and case-closed matter of excessive force being used when it was Most obviously unwarranted, not needed.

It'd be a damned shame if the woman actually succumbed to the injuries sustained at the hands of the officer's apparent over reaction(s).

:shk:

reply to post by eNumbra

The only reason there is a percieved problem here is that it happened to an elderly woman.

Wrong. Theres no cop that is going to approach a white mail in his mid 20s in good condition that is going to try and wrestle a knife away from him.

They will pull their guns and order him to drop it. The guy approaches a cop..he gets a 9mm to the skull...justifiably

The lady cop could have easily grabbed the elderly womans arm and simply pried it out of her hand...

If a cop cant see that as the reasonable force to use in this type of situation, they dont deserve to wear a badge.

If the lady had a gun in her hand she should and would have been shot...

This was a steak knife...You dont know what you are talking about...

Originally posted by whitewave
What I saw was 2 women with a shopping cart walk right past this elderly woman (on the side that she held the knife) and they were completely unconcerned. They glanced at her and her knife and kept walking...slowly, not running in panic. Apparently even generic Wal-Mart shoppers have more sense than the cops did in this situation.

So we should let her walk around with a steak knife in her hand because she seems harmless?

A woman who identified herself as the victims family member is clearly seen on the video. She's trying to help her loved one and the cops are shooing her away.

I was talking about when they arrived on the scene, not after resolving the situation.

With dementia/Alzheimers she may have thought she was holding a spatula or a blanket. Delusions and hallucinations are common. The cops saw a citizen with a weapon. They didn't see a confused old woman who wasn't threatening anyone.

Which is where I agree that there should have probably been a little more time to find out what was going on, but the police made a decision. You don't know what was going through the woman's mind and neither did the officers. The safest route was, unfortunately a quick resolution.

Do you understand that they need to try to answer those questions before they wrestle someone to the ground? I don't get combat pay or hazardous duty pay but I'm frequently put in dangerous situations armed with nothing more than common sense. That one "tool" has served me well for 30 years. I manage to disarm people all the time without throwing them to the ground or causing bloodshed.

then maybe you deserve a little hazard bonus here and there. You don't deal with and aren't trained to deal with people who are sometimes looking to injure or kill police officers.

The problem here is that the wrong people were called in for the job.

While I agree that the elderly and dementia patients can be surprisingly strong, they usually are pretty frail and throwing them to the ground is never an option.

You are trained differently than a Police officer.

I disagree completely. This woman could have easily been disarmed without force or bloodshed. You're right in that I will never be happy with abusive, power-mad cops manhandling old ladies (or anyone).

Police are trained to make a quick decision, this often leads to force being the necessary decision. Taking 2 seconds to long to make a decision will lead to someone who seemed harmless doing someone serious harm.


Once again, terrible situation that had no happy ending. An old woman who suffers from a debilitating neurological disease should have never been left alone in the first place.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by eNumbra

 

The only reason there is a percieved problem here is that it happened to an elderly woman.

Wrong. Theres no cop that is going to approach a white mail in his mid 20s in good condition that is going to try and wrestle a knife away from him.

They will pull their guns and order him to drop it. The guy approaches a cop..he gets a 9mm to the skull...justifiably

The lady cop could have easily grabbed the elderly womans arm and simply pried it out of her hand...

Did you watch the video. The part where the officer walks up to the woman and the camera goes all shaky. Do you honestly think there was no attempt to pull the knife before the woman was thrown?

You can even hear several of the issuances of the order to drop the knife before the woman was put down. Just like you say, if the guy approached the cop he would have gotten shot. The old woman didn't follow an order to drop the knife so she was restrained.

reply to post by eNumbra



Your responses are too ridiculous to even respond to. I don't know why I keep trying to reason with unreasonable people.

You obviously didn't watch the video because the 2 women walked by BEFORE the situation was "resolved". You also said the instructions to the victim can't be heard and audio was clearly present in the video.

Whitewave out.

This cop is stupid, hate to see what will happen when she confronts a real adversary, she will probily shoot everyone in area.

Originally posted by whitewave
reply to post by eNumbra

 

You obviously didn't watch the video because the 2 women walked by BEFORE the situation was "resolved". You also said the instructions to the victim can't be heard and audio was clearly present in the video.

Yeah, that's my mistake and I apologize for it. When the camera man isn't talking you can hear the officer telling her to put the knife down, once the officer is within grabbing distance of the woman the sound is drowned out.

Listen to the video at 0:28.

My apologies for being distracted by work I have.

Originally posted by whitewave
reply to post by eNumbra

 

I don't know why I keep trying to reason with unreasonable people.

Neither do I quite frankly; honestly I think I may never fit in here if I don't join the All Cops Are Nazi Pig Scum Club.

[edit on 8/13/2009 by eNumbra]

What did you expect? The cop to ask her nicely? Keep dreaming.

Originally posted by eNumbra

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by eNumbra

 

she just went for the takedown of the citizen she was supposed to be PROTECTING.

Ignore all my points all you want but even the video shows the officer pointing to the ground in what is an obvious command to drop the knife.

First of all, I am sorry if I was rather disrespectful in my post. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was creeped out by what you said, I was creeped out by what that cop did to a sickly frail confused senior citizen who needed to be helped not hurt. .

You have a right to your opinion, you may have a close relative in law enforcement, you may even actually know a few good cops. But imo the bad ones have long since outnumbered the good ones.

Originally posted by googolplex
This cop is stupid, hate to see what will happen when she confronts a real adversary, she will probily shoot everyone in area.

This reminds me of the cop that gunned down the guy in his front yard a few years ago who was "brandishing a rake."

Originally posted by Bombeni
First of all, I am sorry if I was rather disrespectful in my post. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was creeped out by what you said, I was creeped out by what that cop did to a sickly frail confused senior citizen who needed to be helped not hurt.

Fair enough, I do agree that she needed help and not a tackle. What I'm trying to do is explain why what happened happened.

You have a right to your opinion, you may have a close relative in law enforcement, you may even actually know a few good cops. But imo the bad ones have long since outnumbered the good ones.

A friend of mine; we talk alot about stuff like this.

And I wouldn't say that the bad ones outnumber the good ones, just that the bad ones make for a terrible reputation and then get protected by the supposed good ones. I know from what I've seen and heard however that alot of time in this field will take it's toll. A good cop may not necessarily become a bad cop, but more than likely he will adopt the "We're cops, you wouldn't understand..." attitude.

All of you people are far too soft.

She was a problem, the situation was handled. YOU do a better job in the same circumstance with adrenaline coursing through your system.

EVERYONE is a critic, yet NOT ONE of the critics have been have faced with a similar circumstance.

Just wait until the SHTF, you will ALL be singing a different tune. I've been there, and don't give me your song-and-dance about how you 'would do things differently'; you'll eventually live-or-die by your instincts. MY instincts have kept me alive thus far, and will do so far beyond your weak minded states.

Originally posted by Ventessa
This damn near made me cry. I just pictured a cop doing that to my granny...I guarantee I'd go to jail for life if I saw that # happen to my granny. If I were the family of that lady, I'd give that crazy b!tch officer hell and take every legal action possible against her. This makes me sick. Yes I saw the knife, yes, I know she didn't follow orders, but she is old, fragile, obviously confused, and needed help. The force used on her was inappropriate.

What seems as scary as what this cop did is the fact that the witnesses didn't get incited to start rioting or something. People seem so dumbed down anymore. If this had happened 15-20 years ago, I think they would have needed an ambulance for the cop too.

reply to post by Harlequin



Do you have any links that she has died or are you just making this up?

If she has died, provide a link please, So I can read up on the article.

TYVM.