84-year old Woman Smashed Into the Ground By Cops

Originally posted by Wertdagf
DONT WORRY GUYS!!! Shes isnt gonna remeber it anyway. Stop crying.

If my 83 yrld grandmother wants to pick up a knife and walk around a public place then by all means gun her down. Just because people are crazy does not give them and exucse to weild a weapon.

According to your logic, if I beat you hard enough that you forgot it happened; it is ok?

Really? Wielding the knife? It looked like she just had it in her hand. I mean what happens if someone in Walmart buys a steak knife set? Do we tackle them too?

There was a time in this country when people wore holstered guns as daily acoutrements. Some states still allow this like Arizona for instance. Most people do carry weapons. Why was this blown out of proportion by the people and the police? Personally, I dream of a day when we can go through a drive-thru get coffee, liquor, guns and cigarettes and have a chance to use them all before I get home.

Rcwj75, in almost all threads I usually have the same opinion as you. I do consider you a friend. In this one I do not however agree with you. Did you read my earlier post about why people don't get involved? Here is a summary:

A good point has come up in the last 5 pages of the discusion. The question is; why didn't anyone else help the woman? It is my opinion that people do not help for two reasons. The reasons are:

1. People are afraid of law suits.
2. Everyone also believes that the police will find some crime to charge them with.

Basically, on every front you look, civil and criminal people believe that if they are a 'Good Samaritan' they will be in trouble. It is true many states now have 'Good Samaritan' laws but they are mainly there to protect people with medical training. Doctors, R.N.'s, EMT's are excused from any liability when they help someone outside of their duty. The same is not true for individuals or the general public: they are liable. People are afraid to help on a civil level.

The criminal side of the house scares the public as well. The public is of the opinion if they help they could be:

1. Charged with interfering.
2. Cops will associate them with a crime/crimes the person they innocently help may be guilty of or involved in doing.
3. The public is also afraid of angering the cops so that they become walking targets for the police.
4. Generally accused of anything. For example, the person helped had 500.00 dollars cash and now doesn't. If an EMT or another cop took it the person who is the civilian becomes an attractive fall guy.

People are afraid of being accused of something criminal. People are afraid of being liable civily. Therefore, it is my opinion people don't help for the above mentioned reasons. Cops rarely think of this because they act with impunity on/off duty.

Edit: Spelling and html tags corrected (I hope).



[edit on 14-8-2009 by GTORick]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by LoneGunMan

 

If you were there you would probably would have gotten yourself cut by the old lady or worse, killed.

Now, don't start claiming that you are some sort of superhero and you could have gotten the knife without some sort of altercation with the old lady, because you should know that people with Alzheimer can become very violent very quickly.

Did you see the video?!? She could barely move, all you had to do was walk fast backwards and lead her away from the people. Even the regular ole people had no problem staying away from her.

She could have been led around that parking lot until enough manpower was there to disarm her non-violently.

It is all too easy. Why would anyone let her get in reach for her to do harm?

You move back distract, and repeat until someone gets behind her and could just as easily wrapped they're arms around her and taken the knife. so many other options too.

This was about ego and cops being used to having people obey or else. When it gets worse you may understand.

I have been reluctant to post in response to this story because reading the insane thoughts of some others disturbs me a little.
But I give up, it's too good an opportunity to pass up.

This is an old woman.

I could have removed this "threat" with a cup of tea and a biscuit.

That is the problem with American Policing, they treat all people like they are the next terrorist incident just waiting to happen. There's not common sense, just training to be "a hero" in everything they do.

They've forgotten that a Police Officer needs to be more than the first finger of the law. They need to be social workers, teachers, medical staff, babysitters, carers...
They all seem to think they are G.I. Joe!

Yes she had a knife, but she clearly isn't stable.
If a kid was walking around that car park with a knife, would they have acted in the same way? (it actually wouldn't surprise me if some dumb cop did use that move on a child under the same situation, they seem so completely detached from reality and reason!)

The fact is this was an old woman. Whatever move is "legal", you have to have some common sense and realize that the threat is minor and the situation could have been handled with a bit more intelligence and less "act now think later".

IMO, this is just another example of everything wrong with modern policing. Every incident to them is a potential terrorist incident in which they get to play hero.

It's sad, and it's pathetic, that policing in your country has sunk so low as to not be able to discriminate between a true threat and an old lady who's lost her marbles.

Originally posted by GTORick
Personally, I dream of a day when we can go through a drive-thru get coffee, liquor, guns and cigarettes and have a chance to use them all before I get home.

Thank you for the laugh! I love it...use them all before I get home.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Your welcome LGM. I love humor. Did you see the LEO cartoon I posted earlier? It is funny and this one: www.youtube.com... by the same guy is good too....almost touching on our topic here.

I am going to U2U you later.

Not surprised!

Coincidently, I used to be neighbors with the female LEO that disarms the elder lady.

Unfortunately, I had the displeasure of dealing with her over a minor thing that the management of the property did not feel the need to intervene. But for what ever reason it bothered her enough that she felt the need to intervene. I'm not sure if its appropriate to explain here or not so I won't unless someone informs me its ok to. Even though it was a extremely minor situation, I'm just not sure its ok to explain the situation that occurred.

Needless to say, I felt/still feel she is a out of control, I actually contacted the Whitehall police to file a formal complaint. Being we were neighbors at the time and I knew I wouldn't be moving from there for at least six months I was advised; not to possibly make my situation worse and not file a complaint.

Not sure if this changes some of the opinions here, but for me, knowing her, she gets off on pushing people around and making sure everyone knows she is the boss.

reply to post by Stillresearchn911


I don't see why you can't tell your story here since it goes to the root of the matter: the character of the officer involved. Character is always an important factor when deciding why a situation occurred.

So she is on some sort of power trip?

Fact remains that negotiators are becoming a rare breed these days. And 87 year old women are not very strong. Of course however, female cops are notorious for wanting to impress their male rivals. They get enough flak as it is, so in the female officer's head, it is just standard procedure to take anyone down like that - regardless of age or physical condition. Me? I would not have female officers in the force at all - but that's me. To expect a 140 or 150 lb female officer to be able to duke it out with a 250 lb male is simply ludicrous. Guns get unsheathed way too easily these days.

Originally posted by eNumbra
I'm aware there are ways to disarm a person without slamming them to the ground. The problem is, if someone is brandishing a knife (blade is obviously pointing outward) and you go to disarm by grabbing around the weapon arm you will more than likely be getting slashed.

The only reason there is a percieved problem here is that it happened to an elderly woman.

you've obviously never taken any form of self defense. I've been o several places.. within the first 2 weeks, pretty much all of them showed: sidestep outside, one hand grabs wrist, one pushes on and locks elbow, and viola, neutralized person. if they struggle, walk forward and they naturally go to ground in a controlled manner.

heck, one of the guest instructors was even a cop.

for the rest of the nancyboys out there who are dojo heros, try getting slammed on an unpadded floor once or twice, ie the pavement.. the trauma factor goes up dramatically.

reply to post by rcwj75

the only dangerous people with a knife are professional knife fighters

That is not what I said, learn to read. I said it's not hard for 2 trained police, to disarm someone with a knife, unless they were professional, and by professional I mean well trained. Anyone with a knife can be dangerous, but if you've been trained to deal with that type of situation you can bring it to an end very quickly when your dealing with an untrained person and you can do it without hurting anyone. And if you disagree with that then you know nothing about knife fighting, you just think you do. God you US cops really do love yourselves don't ya?

WOW...can you be anymore inexperianced with knife incidents?

Have you ever met me? No you haven't and you have no idea of what training I have done or what situations I've been in so stfu. btw it's spelled inexperienced, not inexperianced.

Bottom line most of you have never and will never deal with what cops deal with...EVER! Talking about it from your computer desk and actually being on scene are two different things.

Again you have no idea who these people are so stop acting like you know everything about everyone. btw, it's attitudes like yours that makes people hate cops, make no mistake there. People like you are a disgrace to everyone who wears the uniform.

And FYI most people do have to deal with this stuff because the cops are always eating donuts and issuing speeding fines, in most case the fight is over within seconds of the knife being deployed and the cops only show up to investigate, a real cop would know that.

reply to post by MegaCurious


It was either 50 stitches for the officer or 50 for the old lady. Since the old lady was the one attacking a police officer with a knife, I'd rather see the old lady with the stitches. I can hardly believe there are so many hand-to-hand combat experts at ATS. I don't think you guys know what you are talking about.

There is tons of police brutality and even more police rudeness in the USA, but this is neither. I'd rather ATS focus on the recent string of celebrities who have been arrested for "wandering around" and "trying to get from point A to point B at an airport". Both are not crimes, much unlike wielding a knife at an officer.

Originally posted by truthquest
reply to post by MegaCurious

 

It was either 50 stitches for the officer or 50 for the old lady. Since the old lady was the one attacking a police officer with a knife, I'd rather see the old lady with the stitches. I can hardly believe there are so many hand-to-hand combat experts at ATS. I don't think you guys know what you are talking about.

There is tons of police brutality and even more police rudeness in the USA, but this is neither. I'd rather ATS focus on the recent string of celebrities who have been arrested for "wandering around" and "trying to get from point A to point B at an airport". Both are not crimes, much unlike wielding a knife at an officer.

at absolutely no point did the woman in the video, that is the subject of this thread, pose any threat whatsoever to the officer or the people involved

she was a woman in her 80s who had Alzheimer's and walked with a cane

if she is considered a threat in anyone's mind then they are obviously a very feeble and insecure person

a person in a wheelchair could escape danger from this woman

once the officer had grabbed the woman the threat was over, there was no need for the throw to the ground

the woman was old 1st of all, on top of that, she appeared to weigh no more then 140 pounds, and thats not some boxer, its a old alzheimer lady, that meant there was probably barely any muscle

anyone grabbing her arm would immediately disarm her


bottom line this cop was wrong

anyone who doesnt see that is blind and or a police officer and or someone with a agenda or something to gain from arguing this case

and to me we dont need anyone that pathetic on ats



and on top of all of that

its argued who should get the 50 stitches

the old woman who has no clue what is going on (the old woman with alzheimers)

or

the person whos career is to serve and protect, paid by we the people to serve and protect we the people

in my opinion its part of their job to go into risky situations and handle them appropriately

anyone who thinks this was the appropriate reaction is extremely out of touch with reality and nothing more then a troll seeking attention


and unfortunately it seems there isnt a single thread here on ats anymore that isnt plagued by troll like opinions

Originally posted by Dramey
at absolutely no point did the woman in the video, that is the subject of this thread, pose any threat whatsoever to the officer or the people involved

So in your opinion a woman walking toward you with a stake knife is not a threat. Your opinion is wrong.

she was a woman in her 80s who had Alzheimer's and walked with a cane

Irrelevant. Its not really much harder to use a knife than a gun.

if she is considered a threat in anyone's mind then they are obviously a very feeble and insecure person

Anyone with a knife is a threat because they are really easy to use.

a person in a wheelchair could escape danger from this woman

The police officer's job was to neutralize the threat, not escape it.

once the officer had grabbed the woman the threat was over, there was no need for the throw to the ground

Until the knife was no longer in the control of the woman then the threat was not over.

the woman was old 1st of all, on top of that, she appeared to weigh no more then 140 pounds, and thats not some boxer, its a old alzheimer lady, that meant there was probably barely any muscle

anyone grabbing her arm would immediately disarm her

You are completely guessing. What do you know about hand-to-hand combat? Was the officer properly trained to disarm a knife? If not, its not her fault but rather the police agencies fault for improper training.

bottom line this cop was wrong

anyone who doesnt see that is blind and or a police officer and or someone with a agenda or something to gain from arguing this case

and to me we dont need anyone that pathetic on ats

Actually it is name-calling that is pathetic. And who is doing the name-calling?

and on top of all of that

its argued who should get the 50 stitches

the old woman who has no clue what is going on (the old woman with alzheimers)

or

the person whos career is to serve and protect, paid by we the people to serve and protect we the people

in my opinion its part of their job to go into risky situations and handle them appropriately

And again, throwing an knife-wielding attacker on the ground seems really appropriate to me.

anyone who thinks this was the appropriate reaction is extremely out of touch with reality and nothing more then a troll seeking attention


and unfortunately it seems there isnt a single thread here on ats anymore that isnt plagued by troll like opinions

So your thinking is that because I believe a frail crazy 84 year old woman coming at me with a steak knife is a threat to me, that I'm out of touch with reality. Using a knife requires very little muscle power and so I strongly disagree, and I think its quite the opposite. I also know that crazy old "frail" people can actually manage quite a lot of strength when they are worked up from personal experience.

Again, its stupid for this story to make the front page when at least two other cases of obvious police misconduct (unlike this one) have made it to the mainstream press. This conversation is now over, as I'm not interested in having a conversation with someone incapable of civilized discussion.

yes you are so correct please forgive me for being so uncivilized

i cant believe im so uncivilized that i can feel that throwing a 84 year old, knife wielding woman, with Alzheimer's, and a cane to the ground is barbaric

i must be a Neanderthal for my ways of thinking, god help me

youre right its not the cops fault she wasnt trained properly

its our fault for paying someone who isnt trained properly

its our fault for allowing someone to be in the position that female cop was in for not being trained properly

you speak of hand to hand combat, do you just study and teach it or have you ever actually used it?

a knife with little force will do nothing but superficial wounds

but im just uncivilized because i think a gung-ho cop who we pay to be in these situations should deal with superficial wounds as part of her job instead of having a 84 year old Alzheimer's patient who has no clue what world she is in suffer head trauma

and again who said anyone needed wounds? the cop pulled up, we see that on video, less then 25 seconds later the woman was on the ground

what ever happened to patience and compassion
you dont find it unnerving that a cop could be that out of touch with reality that she sees nothing wrong with having 0 information and throwing some old woman to the ground

that cop pulling up has no information other then what the 911 operator gave her

how does that cop know the woman wasnt being attacked and is now holding the knife because she feels endangered?

the cop knows nothing, all she sees is a cane, a mentally disturbed fragile old woman and a kitchen knife and within 25 seconds of arrival shes causing head trauma

yea you're right that was the way to handle things in this pathetic place that we once used to be able to call a great nation

and again yea youre right its stupid for this story to make the news

we're all much better off just staying asleep and oblivious to the world around us and everything that is happening to our follow man

i am sorry you are wrong and i would fight that idea to the death

the elderly deserve respect= bottom line
police need better training= bottom line

stories like this absolutely prove that fact=bottom line

and if i had my choice i would go into civil war right now to rid this country of the crap that call themselves people that allows things like this and much worse to take place in this police state that we used to once call the greatest country in the world


again in real life person to person, no one would have the guts to say this cop did the right thing and the elderly person deserved to have what happened to her happen

only in this anonymous message board do trolls have the guts to make claims that elderly woman deserve this type of thing

my one hope is that this happens to the grandparents of the people who think the cop did the right thing

then lets see where you stand

no one ever wants to stand up for other people when they are being wronged, but always wonder why no one stands for them when they are wronged

and again bottom line the police need better training, and better rules and regulations if the only way they can handle a 84 year old with a knife is by throwing her to the ground

again i say this

the woman was 84 years old how accurate could she possibly be with throwing a knife?
how much power could she actually put behind that throw?
was there a single person in that video that seemed to be unable to simply walk away from the cane-dependent "attacker"?

no there was NO ONE in danger and i will stand by that to the death

the only one in any danger was the old lady the moment that cop car pulled up

and 25 seconds later she lay in a pool of her own blood

but yea youre right im just uncivilized for thinking thats wrong
and if civilized means thinking that situation is right, then i wish the death of civilization because obviously civilization is nothing but ignorance

They of course will take the cops word over a citizen. Even with an incident being video tapped they deny everything and it stays in court for months sometimes years without a conviction.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I have been reluctant to post in response to this story because reading the insane thoughts of some others disturbs me a little.
But I give up, it's too good an opportunity to pass up.

This is an old woman.

I could have removed this "threat" with a cup of tea and a biscuit.

That is the problem with American Policing, they treat all people like they are the next terrorist incident just waiting to happen. There's not common sense, just training to be "a hero" in everything they do.

They've forgotten that a Police Officer needs to be more than the first finger of the law. They need to be social workers, teachers, medical staff, babysitters, carers...
They all seem to think they are G.I. Joe!

Yes she had a knife, but she clearly isn't stable.
If a kid was walking around that car park with a knife, would they have acted in the same way? (it actually wouldn't surprise me if some dumb cop did use that move on a child under the same situation, they seem so completely detached from reality and reason!)

The fact is this was an old woman. Whatever move is "legal", you have to have some common sense and realize that the threat is minor and the situation could have been handled with a bit more intelligence and less "act now think later".

IMO, this is just another example of everything wrong with modern policing. Every incident to them is a potential terrorist incident in which they get to play hero.

It's sad, and it's pathetic, that policing in your country has sunk so low as to not be able to discriminate between a true threat and an old lady who's lost her marbles.

"A cup of tea and a biscuit" -- that's precious. I don't have a thing to add to your brilliant post, just thought it deserved a bump.

Originally posted by truthquest
reply to post by MegaCurious

 

It was either 50 stitches for the officer or 50 for the old lady. Since the old lady was the one attacking a police officer with a knife, I'd rather see the old lady with the stitches. I can hardly believe there are so many hand-to-hand combat experts at ATS. I don't think you guys know what you are talking about.

There is tons of police brutality and even more police rudeness in the USA, but this is neither. I'd rather ATS focus on the recent string of celebrities who have been arrested for "wandering around" and "trying to get from point A to point B at an airport". Both are not crimes, much unlike wielding a knife at an officer.

Attacking a police officer? You must be joking. I pray you don't work in a nursing home with that kind of mentality; if an oldster got up from the dinner table but in his absentmindedness forgot to lay his dinner knife down, you'd be the type that doles out the punishment to our old folks.

You remind me that hell would freeze over before I ever entrust the care of one of my parents to a hit and miss bunch of uncaring and even diabolical strangers.

long time lurker 1st time post

i think its disgusting that some people, young males by the sound and look of it, see this old lady wandering about, with knife and the 1st thing they do is whip out there phone to film her, probably hoping she would fall over for another hilarious you tube moment.

then screaming and shouting effing and blinding, mofo this and that when it all goes wrong, also the daughter who left her should feel some guilt imho.
steak knife? in a car? with a mentally unstable old woman? yeah thats cool, you stay hear mum and play with the sharp pointy things whilst i pop to the shops, looks like mental illness runs in the family.

reply to post by ukrocks


haha, "play with the sharp pointy things" -- you have a way with words, stick around ok??!

There is a lot of fail in this situation.

That woman's daughter failed her.

The cops training failed her.

I put about 70% of the blame for this incident at the feet of her daughter who left and "old-timers" patient alone out in the parking lot. WTF was she thinking? Probably not real big on thinking things out. She should be charged with some form of elderly abuse, neglect or something.

20% of the blame i put on this officers training.

Cops seem to be trained to "shoot first, ask questions later", and "your life is more important than the public's". This whole attitude is completely backwards. IMO it should be " Ask questions first, only shoot if you absolutely have to" and " The public's life is more important than yours." No one puts a gun to the head of anyone that becomes a cop, they all know the risks.

This officer took all of 3 seconds to decide to take this lady down. This is a product of the training they receive. If the officer had taken a few seconds and a deep breath it would have been readily apparent that this wasn't your standard "knife wielding crazy person" type of situation. I thought cops were supposed to de-escalate situations not constantly escalate them.

10% of the blame i put on the officer. She made a bad call. She is human though so i can forgive this. No one is perfect. Without trying to put words in her mouth, i am pretty sure she is feeling pretty crappy about herself right now. I know i would.