America Won the Vietnam War ! - Yes you heard right.

reply to post by drwizardphd


Apparently, there are a number of things beyond you.

If I was as narrow minded, I'd only be able to see one photon at a time. Once in a while, you really need to look around.

At the time, we were looking at a formidable Soviet Army staring us down in Europe. This had been brewing and building for decades.

The Russians with Soviet forces were fully prepared to swarm across the Fulda Gap, overwhelm the Allied forces on line, and RUSH to various objectives, hopefully before nuclear weapons were unbridled.

The Russians looked at what we were doing in Vietnam, and soberly came to the correct conclusion.

If the Americans would fight that hard, expend that many men, at such a cost, FOR A COUNTRY THEY REALLY DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT, then how much harder would the US fight against the Russians and Soviet forces if they began crossing into free Europe.

Plus, the Americans now had millions of men with actual combat experience. Men who had fought, had heard the cries of battle, and knew what it took to win the battles.

Now the US had hundreds of thousands of hardened, battle experienced NCO's.

It's one thing to war-game.

It's completely different when you have actual battle experience. With enhanced weapons systems, improved, proven logistics systems, and the ability to transport these men around a battlefield.

Take the blinders off. This isn't a game of checkers. It's more akin to three-dimensional chess.

The whole world can go by while you're looking in the wrong direction.

Right now? Right now, with the chains cut, in a total war, the US has more experience and more battle hardened men than any nation on earth. With major, MAJOR weapons developments, tuned and refined in actual combat.

We pulled out of Vietnam as the insurrection was defeated and the South Vietnamese military were stable.

BUT, they were NOT able to withstand an outright invasion three years after the US pulled all military forces out.

Besides, we now enjoy the benefits of many Vietnamese scientists, doctors, and technicians who have migrated to the US.

No telling how many lives they've saved.

Oh. That thermobaric explosive we developed? Guess who the chief scientists was?





[edit on 25-8-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
reply to post by esecallum

 

its statments like this from idiots like you that realy makes the rest of the world hate americans, ( and Im sure most well informed and intelligent americans are cringeing with embarrasment reading what you wrote)

Its statements like that from spineless people like you who make America look weak and invites terrorism.

You need to have some backbone.stand up staright.

be tall and proud.


stop being an apologist.you you liberal

you should go to irak and Afganistan and be a man instead of cowering and making us look weak.

we have f22 bombers .we have a plentiful supply of nukes...

we have the best army..

we have courage and we are not afraid...

we will previl.

we will triumph...we always win.

always.

do you hear me?

Hahaha, this is comedy gold. I haven't read anything this funny since I got a letter from my....no wait, I've NEVER read anything this funny.
That last post of yours, escallum, was brilliant. Thank you for making my day and realising how much of a professional comedian and troll you really are!


Oh, just one note:Always is a long time. Remember that

[edit on 25-8-2009 by aorAki]

dooper-
If the Americans would fight that hard, expend that many men, at such a cost, FOR A COUNTRY THEY REALLY DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT, then how much harder would the US fight against the Russians and Soviet forces if they began crossing into free Europe.

You think that's why the US fought in Vietnam? The US was in Vietnam because the US has a habit of being in a geopolitical fortress surrounded by allies with little chance of a war on its own soil. The US government fabricated a reason that was to be the catalyst for American counter-invasion of Vietnam, all for the reasoning of throwing American soldiers into a plausibly winnable war. It was not so much about intimidating the USSR as it was to make Vietnam into an American proxy (just like Guam and South Korea).

Besides, the USSR already knew of American capabilities ever since the US came overseas during WWII. The US just had the resources which were not in use, so they simply gave themselves a reason to use them in Vietnam, a war that had nothing to do with the US in the first place.

Its statements like that from spineless people like you who make America look weak and invites terrorism.

It's people like you that make me wish that there were more terrorists in the US than the US government likes to claim. Maybe if the US homeland was actually in a position to suffer from real terrorism or warfare you might actually know what fear is and you would stop polluting everyone else with your BSPR

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Friend, you're about as wrong as a person can be.

If you would take the trouble to break open a history book - yes a secular, normal, history book now and then, you wouldn't make statements that just make you look completely ignorant.

The US didn't invade Vietnam. I know you'd LIKE to believe it, but the US did NOT invade Vietnam.

Read about the French involvement there, and how the US came into being there.

Learn about the division between the North and South, how the governments came about, on and on.

I grow so weary of dumbass, unknowing, ignorant, and just completely WRONG statements on so many topics, that it's like so many people never spent a day in school.

No wonder the world if full of misinformed retards.

Facts don't mean squat!

Just any fabrication of the moment will do.

If only I could be as uninformed . . . I could move my money from pocket to pocket and get rich fast!

I'm sorry for telling the way I was taught by my government, the objective Canadian government. I was left to find out the details on my own, but they told the basic story of how it started and how it ended

I wouldn't entirely trust any American history books, sorry. I have this amazing ability to view an incident based on all angles and I can come up with my own objective conclusions. It's obvious that any party involved in an incident would twist the facts to make them seem more right than the other, but you will never know the truth unless you see it from the outside from all angles.

It's easy to call somebody a hostile enemy when you secretly attack them first.

Originally posted by esecallum

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
reply to post by esecallum

 

its statments like this from idiots like you that realy makes the rest of the world hate americans, ( and Im sure most well informed and intelligent americans are cringeing with embarrasment reading what you wrote)

Its statements like that from spineless people like you who make America look weak and invites terrorism.

You need to have some backbone.stand up staright.

be tall and proud.


stop being an apologist.you you liberal

you should go to irak and Afganistan and be a man instead of cowering and making us look weak.

we have f22 bombers .we have a plentiful supply of nukes...

we have the best army..

we have courage and we are not afraid...

we will previl.

we will triumph...we always win.

always.

do you hear me?

actually we are reading what you are saying. i find that amusing as well.

horray we can kill the best! that must me we all get free stuff now right?

i have pride in my country (i know you arent talking to me so dont even start on that), but your logic is so flawed...

thats why EVERYONE has said you are wrong.

this isnt a deathmatch on a first person shooter game.

this is life. you dont win by killing. unless its bears, and you were his food.

you usually start more trouble by bullying people around.

all we did was stirred up an ant hill of problems.

and by problems, i means tons of people and places that hate that we did that.

you are obviously military as to your quote. but how does going to fight an illegal war prove that you are a man?

horray we killed over a million iraqis! means we won right? won what exactly? YAY YOU WON MORE ENEMIES!!

CONGRATS!


edit: is there a way to make dumb people stop breathing under obamas plan? thats the only way i will endorse it!

[edit on 8/26/2009 by mahtoosacks]

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
I'm sorry for telling the way I was taught by my government,

And you believe everything your government says?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/433ef1214957.jpg[/atsimg]

haha, funny.

Actually I am a free spirit that belongs to no government, especially not a government that has betrayed me countless times. That does not mean that they twist history around though.

reply to post by SLAYER69

He was "left to get the details on his own."

And folks are confused as to how young people can be so completely ignorant of civics, history, economics, government, and current affairs.

I guess it's because they're "left to get the details on their own."

My God.

reply to post by dooper


I'm not sure if they are pro Russian/Chinese or just plain anti-American. When history gets twisted especially in this case. No wonder we are doomed to repeat it.

Some younger crowds around here seem to have a romanticism with the Soviet Union or China and either have not looked into the real history or they join a conspiracy website and take somebody's opinion as fact.


My favorite is when they join ATS and think they are going to teach us something new that we haven't already heard a thousand times before as if they are the great oracle.



[edit on 27-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

I would agree.

Lately I noted that Beatle "Paul died before the Abbey Road album."

I really thought we settled such topics decades ago, but kids run across these things, think they have a new insight, and it would be funny as hell, but with the depth of their knowledge, it's pathetic.

Vietnam. I have indentions in my shin from a bullet, another indention in my throat from shrapnel, and lots of shrapnel or bullet holes and scars all in between from numerous fire fights - in Vietnam, and some kid from Canada is now going to inform me.

I extended and extended to stay there, until the very last unit left, and I know for a fact that combat troops left in the summer of 1972.

But somehow, according to this young man, in 1975 we "lost" the Vietnam War, and yet we weren't even there.

A self-taught young man at that!

reply to post by dooper


He found some pictures or a video of the embassy helicopter scene and thinks that was our "Defeat" Maybe he hasn't learned about the Christmas bombings? OR The Paris peace accords. ETC...

I think what people should do is actually look at it from all angles and not just say they looked at it from all angles. When people say that Vietnam was an American war tell them to ask the Japanese and French or the Chinese who all came before us. They were actually defeated on the battle field. The US wanted out and the Vietnamese didn't want to talk so Nixon started the non-stop around the clock Christmas Bombings of the North which should have been done in the first place and avoided years of conflict IMO. That brought them back to the negotiating tables.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d806482984b4.jpg[/atsimg]
"Christmas Bombings"

Operation Linebacker II was a U.S. Seventh Air Force and U.S. Navy Task Force 77 aerial bombardment campaign, conducted against targets in North Vietnam during the final period of the American commitment to the Vietnam War. The operation was conducted from 18 December to 29 December 1972 (hence its unofficial nickname - the "Christmas Bombings") and saw the largest heavy bomber strikes launched by the U.S. Air Force since the end of the Second World War. Linebacker II was a resumption of the Operation Linebacker bombings conducted from May to October, with the emphasis of the new campaign shifted to attacks by B-52 Stratofortress bombers rather than tactical fighter aircraft.

"Peace is at hand"

On 22 December, Washington asked Hanoi to return to the talks with the terms offered in October.[55] On 26 December, Hanoi notified Washington that it was willing.

Nixon replied that he wanted the technical discussions to resume on 2 January and that he would halt the bombing if Hanoi agreed.

They did so and Nixon suspended aerial operations north of the 20th parallel on 29 December. He then informed Kissinger to accept the terms offered in October, if that was what it took to get the agreement signed.[57] Senator Henry Jackson (D, Wash.), tried to persuade Nixon to make a televised address in order to explain to the American people that "we bombed them in order to get them back to the table.

Damage to North Vietnam's infrastructure was severe. The Air Force estimated 500 rail interdictions had taken place, 372 pieces of rolling stock and three million gallons of petroleum products were destroyed, and 80 percent of North Vietnam's electrical power production capability had been eliminated. Logistical inputs into North Vietnam were assessed by U.S. intelligence at 160,000 tons per month when the operation began. By January 1973, those imports had dropped to 30,000 tons per month.[71] Although Hanoi claimed that the U.S. had "carpet-bombed hospitals, schools, and residential areas, committing barbarous crimes against our people", the North Vietnamese government itself claimed that only 1,624 civilians had been killed by the bombing.[72]

[58]

[edit on 27-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69[/url]

I for one, do not Sir. I have spent over 40 years in the service of my country. I have seen a few things and done a few things more.

What I object to most strongly, is some chairborne warrior slagging me off because Wiki say this or that about my post, when he, she or it has never even put his, her or it's country's uniform on, let along stood up to be counted!

I have tremendous respect for my friends in 1, 2 & 6 Rifles who have and indeed still do, serve in Afghanistan.

But these 'know it alls' who play 1st person shooters and call it real life need to get a life.

Whoa! Reading the last few pages of posts one thing becomes plainly obvious. America, and Americans, are still hurting over what happened to them in Vietnam and maybe, just maybe, are more than a little embarressed by the outcome? You shouldn't be! Vietnam, just like Afghanistan, was an unwinable war. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

mint, no war is unwinnable.

The Afghanis have been defeated twice.

Alexander and Ghenghis. They both depopulated vast regions of the country, they chased these "uncatchables" until they cornered them, and they destroyed them.

I fought in Vietnam, and I'm not ashamed of a damned thing. We won every battle.

We just weren't permitted to win enough.

We were held on defense, and not allowed any offense.

Vietnam, Afghanistan, any country can be defeated. You kill enough, you do in fact win.

After all, war is two sides killing each other until one side is either unable to kill further, or unwilling to die further.

There's a number of dead required. No one knows the number beforehand, but the loser knows it once it's been reached.

So the faster you kill, the more you kill, the more efficiently you kill, in the greatest numbers, in the greatest concentrations, the quicker it's over.

To hold to nebulous rules of war, and limited action is to forego a cessation of fighting. The longer a war goes on, the more misery, the more total deaths on each side, and the greater the disaster to the country.

Thus, to be more merciful, in war, one must be absolutely ruthless in it's execution right out of the gate.

Thus, any war is winnable.

You just have to kill enough.

reply to post by dooper

After all, war is two sides killing each other until one side is either unable to kill further, or unwilling to die further.

This is basically what I was referring to. I think to many Americans were/are returning home in body bags! Ordinary Americans simply got fed up seeing their sons and daughters being killed for a cause they neither understood or supported. Afghanistan is the same. Here in the UK ordinary people are watching dead soldiers return home to our shores and are wondering is it worth it?
What I find interesting is that those directly in harms way, the soldiers, always say it is worth it and are willing to die for their country, while those family members back home are the ones calling for their government to bring home the troops.
If the general public don't support the war then it is unwinable. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Yes, wars of drawn out attrition tires the populace after time.

That's why if one ever designs to go to war, you hit with everything you have, destroy the enemy, and then come home.

All the Masters of Warfare have known this for millennia, and all of them have stated the same.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by dooper

 

I'm not sure if they are pro Russian/Chinese or just plain anti-American. When history gets twisted especially in this case. No wonder we are doomed to repeat it.

Some younger crowds around here seem to have a romanticism with the Soviet Union or China and either have not looked into the real history or they join a conspiracy website and take somebody's opinion as fact.

My favorite is when they join ATS and think they are going to teach us something new that we haven't already heard a thousand times before as if they are the great oracle.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

I agree slayer, the ussr and communist china have reached mythical status somehow, and people forget what they stood for and what they did.
It has taken till now, with the internet, for all that old communist propoganda, that we used to brush aside, to take hold in the "if its on youtube it must be real" crowd.

Ask just about any person old enough to have actually lived in the ussr or the old communist china, almost none would want for things to go back the way that they were.