America Won the Vietnam War ! - Yes you heard right.

originally posted by: EvilSadamClone

Militarily we could not be beat. We took a few bloody noses, yes, but overall we won just about all military engagements of the war.

Where we lost was the stupid political games, and the influence of the media.

i would gladly burst your delusion bubble with you saying US military cant be beat ..

it was beaten again and again and again with low tech army in Korea and in Vietnam. Even with the superiority of weapon and airpower the US lost the war , NOT BECAUSE POLITICAL REASONS BUT BECAUSE THEY CANNOT GAIN ADVANTAGE ON BATTLEGROUND..

Look at american soldiers , they are accostumed to fight under artilery umbrella and air cover.. without them they are not capable of fire & maneuver like their grandfathers did in WW-2.

Look at the PSTD cases in World War 2 , You see less PSTD cases from WW2 veterans , in spite of they fighting an equal and sometimes better enemies (German and Japanese are better in some category than USA).

Look at PSTD cases in Vietnam , they got like PSTD from constant terror of NVA/VC ambushing and overruning them, also they got PSTD from killing innocent civilians with abandon.

Look at the PSDT cases from Iraqi Veteran , they got PSTD because some taliban shot at them and a few IED blast ?????

They got weaker mentally and morally.. You just have to see the blatant warcrimes done by the US marines in iraq and afghanistan , where they killed live prisoners (on video) and urinate on dead enemy combatant. Today, these american soldiers reflect the current american society, Evil and Coward..

a reply to: milomilo

Look at the PSTD cases in World War 2 , You see less PSTD cases from WW2 veterans

Or even none at all, given that the condition wasn't recognised until the 1970's. Anyone in WW2 suffering from this was simply labelled shell-shocked or, much worse, classed as LMF, which stood for lack of moral fibre. Your post is complete nonsense because no such direct comparison is even possible due to this and other factors that prevent meaningful analysis.

Your conclusion is deeply flawed, but is in reality, I suspect, no more than trawling for a reaction anyway.

yes back then it was called shell shocked.. whatever the term, this so called pstd existed in every combat veteran since the beginning of man.

thus another reason why all,veteran who experiencced combat and killing should be forbidden to own or use any weapon outside the military. people who already killed other human beings can crack and easily murder someone else.

Verdun, known as 'Von Falkenheins mincing machine', I can quite see why the french were not too happy when WW2 started.

a reply to: milomilo

Yes, which is why there are no PTSD case reports from WW2 to use as a comparison with modern cases. The whole outlook and attitude was different then so the comparable reports you'd need don't exist. Which is what I said the first time.

a reply to: esecallum

One of the dumbest posts I have seen here, or anywhere. Period.

Wow.

originally posted by: milomilo

originally posted by: EvilSadamClone

Militarily we could not be beat. We took a few bloody noses, yes, but overall we won just about all military engagements of the war.

Where we lost was the stupid political games, and the influence of the media.

i would gladly burst your delusion bubble with you saying US military cant be beat ..

it was beaten again and again and again with low tech army in Korea and in Vietnam. Even with the superiority of weapon and airpower the US lost the war , NOT BECAUSE POLITICAL REASONS BUT BECAUSE THEY CANNOT GAIN ADVANTAGE ON BATTLEGROUND..

Look at american soldiers , they are accostumed to fight under artilery umbrella and air cover.. without them they are not capable of fire & maneuver like their grandfathers did in WW-2.

Look at the PSTD cases in World War 2 , You see less PSTD cases from WW2 veterans , in spite of they fighting an equal and sometimes better enemies (German and Japanese are better in some category than USA).

Look at PSTD cases in Vietnam , they got like PSTD from constant terror of NVA/VC ambushing and overruning them, also they got PSTD from killing innocent civilians with abandon.

Look at the PSDT cases from Iraqi Veteran , they got PSTD because some taliban shot at them and a few IED blast ?????

They got weaker mentally and morally.. You just have to see the blatant warcrimes done by the US marines in iraq and afghanistan , where they killed live prisoners (on video) and urinate on dead enemy combatant. Today, these american soldiers reflect the current american society, Evil and Coward..

--
Ummm, NO.

You don't know what your talking about. Stop being ignorant.

American Soldiers are used to fighting under an Umbrella of Artillery and Air Cover? That's true for all nations capable of that, INCLUDING YOUR PRECIOUS RUSSIA.

I'm telling you, not as a Member of ATS with conjecture and speculation, but as an Active Duty Soldier in a BCT, Your wrong in YOUR Assumptions.

What a wonderful picture you painted yourself to be on here at ATS land, your double standards SCREAM for attention on US bashing.

Keep it to yourself, the same rhetoric about vietnam is tiresome an lame, next please.

originally posted by: Arnie123

originally posted by: milomilo

originally posted by: EvilSadamClone

Militarily we could not be beat. We took a few bloody noses, yes, but overall we won just about all military engagements of the war.

Where we lost was the stupid political games, and the influence of the media.

i would gladly burst your delusion bubble with you saying US military cant be beat ..

it was beaten again and again and again with low tech army in Korea and in Vietnam. Even with the superiority of weapon and airpower the US lost the war , NOT BECAUSE POLITICAL REASONS BUT BECAUSE THEY CANNOT GAIN ADVANTAGE ON BATTLEGROUND..

Look at american soldiers , they are accostumed to fight under artilery umbrella and air cover.. without them they are not capable of fire & maneuver like their grandfathers did in WW-2.

Look at the PSTD cases in World War 2 , You see less PSTD cases from WW2 veterans , in spite of they fighting an equal and sometimes better enemies (German and Japanese are better in some category than USA).

Look at PSTD cases in Vietnam , they got like PSTD from constant terror of NVA/VC ambushing and overruning them, also they got PSTD from killing innocent civilians with abandon.

Look at the PSDT cases from Iraqi Veteran , they got PSTD because some taliban shot at them and a few IED blast ?????

They got weaker mentally and morally.. You just have to see the blatant warcrimes done by the US marines in iraq and afghanistan , where they killed live prisoners (on video) and urinate on dead enemy combatant. Today, these american soldiers reflect the current american society, Evil and Coward..

--
Ummm, NO.

You don't know what your talking about. Stop being ignorant.

American Soldiers are used to fighting under an Umbrella of Artillery and Air Cover? That's true for all nations capable of that, INCLUDING YOUR PRECIOUS RUSSIA.

I'm telling you, not as a Member of ATS with conjecture and speculation, but as an Active Duty Soldier in a BCT, Your wrong in YOUR Assumptions.

What a wonderful picture you painted yourself to be on here at ATS land, your double standards SCREAM for attention on US bashing.

Keep it to yourself, the same rhetoric about vietnam is tiresome an lame, next please.

i think you are the one that dont know your own history. read on the account from german prisoners that they think american are wasteful and dependent on their artilery , and they are not good infantry. The germans concede that the best infantry is British infantry, then Russians.. The Amis are good in their overwhelming artilery and air..

please stop pretending what you are not , based on your avatar you most likely an ignorant teenager who played xbox allday and think call of duty and counterstrike is a realistic potrayal of combat.

try to lose some weight and join the armed forces and stop playing HALO..

>>
In Vietnam we killed 6000000 Vietnamese
>>

What?

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed
>>
In Vietnam we killed 6000000 Vietnamese
>>

What?

it is his score playing space invaders in vietnam..

milomilo,



You need to think about what you are posting here on this board and any others. War is dirty business..very dirty..no matter who is fighting it.

You are obviously avoiding the conduct of those we have often fought against...and the terrible things they have done to combatants and even civilians. I will remind you of the conduct of those in Iraq today and what they are doing to the civilians in the areas they are overtaking. Same thing in Africa.

I will also remind you of a political awareness..called "Democide."

Death by ones own government.

en.wikipedia.org...

here from this wiki article by R. J. Rummel..watch closely what he states about war verses peace...

His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.

I am not diminishing what has happened in war..but also showing that peace is also often not what it is advertised to be.
That it too is also and often not the product advertised.
262 million people is a lot of people slaughtered during peacetime.

Once one is aware of this pattern going on...it puts a very different spin on the blame game you are want to post on sites like this one.

It also puts a very different spin on what phonies try to pass for enlightenment and education today...including the education paid for and financed by our own governments. Also what passes for news and information ..the media.




I will also remind you of what the US military is capable if the gloves are removed and they are allowed to fight unlimited..even conventionally unlimited.

The Highway of Death coming out of Kuwait City going back to Bagdad in the first Gulf War is textbook of this. For when the higher ups found out the extent of what happened and so rapidly...they had to put a stop to it. It would have been political suicide had then not put a stop to it.
The American fighting man is the most efficient killing machine ever turned loose on this earth...ever. The only thing which separates him from most nations is their leadership. And our leadership is now often failing the American fighting man as evidenced by what happened in Benghazi.

You do not need to be a genius to connect the dots here..only know a bit of history.


Now for the historical record....

Vietnam was a planned engineered loss for the purpose of putting Vietnam and it's resources into storage and competitors out. The resource here is Oil.

As the war transpired...oil companies entered Vietnam and drilled oil wells..on and offshore and capped them off.

A new oil refinery was built in the area called the U Meng forest before the war wound down. The other refinery is in Hanoi, Vietnam and has been there since before WW2.

Once the oil was found and capped off ..the war was wound down. The country was allowed to fall into the hands of the communists. This because the communists are to dumb to run anything at a profit...but they are excellent for keeping the oil in the ground and competitors out. In short the country goes into storage and the oil off the marketplace and not driving down prices.

The nation is brought into the 20th century technology under taxpayer expense while the war is going on ...and when this is completed..the war is wound down.


For those of you who cannot connect the dots or know enough history ..this is exactly what is happening in Iraq...also what is happening in Egypt, in Libya, and planned for Syria. For there has been oil both on shore and off shore of these nations..even offshore....Israel. Iraq was brought into 21st century technology in the important areas and the war timely wound down..just like in Vietnam.

These nations have been weakened under the guise of war and conflict..and allowed..even sponsored by western armaments to overthrow their governments...and put in a radical Islamic government. This ..just like Vietnam...insures that competitors remain out...and the oil off the market because they are to stupid and incompetent to get the oil out at a profit. These nations will be put into economic storage..and the resources off the marketplace. When it is time to get the oil and resources out of the ground ..a pro profit government will be put in to place. Just as was done in Nicaragua.

Oil and natural gas has been found all along and off shore of Mexico and Central America..down into South America...off the coast of Equador , Peru...etc etc. These are also nations in which we are going to see more political instability. The militaries of today follow oil because the economics follow oil. It is a resource war...but not as most people are conditioned to think.

The other thing you pro or anti war people need to realize is that the olde dictum of war is that...

"The victors get the spoils"

This means new territories..new resources. This did not happen after Gulf War 1 and 2. This means you are fighting someone else's war, someone else's profits, someone else's gain. Someone not wanting to be seen or known.

Many were predicting a fall of gas prices after gulf war one and two. It did not happen. IN fact gasoline prices went up in many areas of America. This is a dead give away of what was really happening...no matter what leadership and the news media was telling you.

Once you know the pattern of what happened in Vietnam...it was easily predictable in Iraq..same with Libya, Egypt and now Syria. Someone is using the USA and the Western nations...Nato..to fight their resource war.
We are being used and misused by a power greater than the US Government.
We are and have been fighting someone else's war since before WW1. Our wars of today are nothing to boast about.
We are being had..by our own government...which has been stolen and bought out by a higher power.

Our problem as an American people is our leadership and our ignorance in not knowing enough about world events to see them and the phonies coming...particularly among our leadership...both political parties...not just one.

Wise up people...these wars are not what they appear to be.

I do not have any problem about the competency of our military. It is our political leadership which worries me. And much of our political leadership has now infected our military leadership with politically reliable personel..not with military shooters...but cheap politicians. This is one reason our morale in the military has become so low...since WW2. Politicians ...not shooters in military leadership positions.

Hope this helps some of you,
Orangetom

originally posted by: Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
reply to post by Ole Sarge

 

Wasn't the American objective to ultimately stop the NVA from taking South Vietnam? If the south was eventually conquered, then does that not count as a failure for the US?

Signing of peace accords mean little if the battle still rages on. From what I know, the Fall of Saigon was when North Vietnam officially won the war and the US finally retreated.

You better examine your history facts! The US left South Vietnam in 1973 with only the US embassy and it's marine security remaining. Saigon didn't fall until 1975 a good two years after the US military had left. How is this a retreat when one combatant left two years prior?

For some reason, I think this is a joke, but what is not a joke is that there are actually people who think like this; lots and lots, of people - most people.

Milomilo..the incompetent historian who PRAISED the tiny SU25 as a FAR better platform than an A-10. Which according to HIM would be easily shot down by idiots with rifles. Miliomilo who cannot identify individual arms like an SKS nor MILSPEAK worth a DAMN.
And LAST but not least is of THE FIRM belief ANY combat vets should be disarmed...not in HIS country of BOZOLAND (FUNNY he's so modest ,he tells us NOTHING of HIS location or qualification,I suppose he doesn't want to embarrass us I'm sure)but the US of course.


We won the fights our leaders lost the war. Lawyers go figure...


Thanks Orange that jibes with my intell, dovetails NICELY to the drug trade too.

a reply to: cavtrooper7


Wow!! ]cavtrooper7,

I had not thought of it through to the extent you are describing of the Drug Trade. That totally excaped me ..but it too dovetails into history now that I think about it.

The question about the drug trade in the back of my mind..and soul...not knowing much about it..is.....

Is there enough capital in the drug trade to buy up a presidential election..even senators and congressmen..can they too be bought up..is there enough monies in the drug trade to buy up all of this???

Thanks for the expansion of the thought process. I shall have to re evaluate my thought line up to include the drug trade...a very very occult hidden trade.


I should tell you ]cavtrooper7...that my concern for our people in uniform is that under such incompetent hack political PC leadership..our military people will be stuck out on a job half way around the world and find themselves with no support and no way home. I believe our leadership has degenerated that low for political lucre today. That they will sacrifice our people on their altars for lucre...for profit..and not even American profits...but someone else's profits. They are in fact bartering, trading, and selling our very souls and nation for someone else's profit and lucre.

It really torques my jaws cavtrooper7...to the max..just thinking about it!!

Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999
a reply to: cavtrooper7


Wow!! ]cavtrooper7,

I had not thought of it through to the extent you are describing of the Drug Trade. That totally excaped me ..but it too dovetails into history now that I think about it.

The question about the drug trade in the back of my mind..and soul...not knowing much about it..is.....

Is there enough capital in the drug trade to buy up a presidential election..even senators and congressmen..can they too be bought up..is there enough monies in the drug trade to buy up all of this???

Thanks for the expansion of the thought process. I shall have to re evaluate my thought line up to include the drug trade...a very very occult hidden trade.


I should tell you ]cavtrooper7...that my concern for our people in uniform is that under such incompetent hack political PC leadership..our military people will be stuck out on a job half way around the world and find themselves with no support and no way home. I believe our leadership has degenerated that low for political lucre today. That they will sacrifice our people on their altars for lucre...for profit..and not even American profits...but someone else's profits. They are in fact bartering, trading, and selling our very souls and nation for someone else's profit and lucre.

It really torques my jaws cavtrooper7...to the max..just thinking about it!!

Orangetom

Many military officers become political hacks to advance through the senior grades by being politically correct. They usually do this in lieu of having good military skills. This usually happens during peace time and when war breaks out they either get many people killed until they get fired or they hide in the Pentagon and continue making bad decisions. Many good officers get passed over (not promoted) for things as simple as being the wrong ethnic origin (white) just for PC reasons. The Obama administration is pushing for more minority officers in the military for no good reason. Both Obama and Clinton used the military as a big social experiment not caring what affect it would have on it's fighting ability. SECDEF Hagal is out of his league and has no business in that position. He is a political hack who does what is political advantageous not what matters for the military.

a reply to: buddah6

I agree with your assessment here and remember the stuff done under Bill Clinton and some of it did not make good nonsense nor was it what some of us know to be professional. More like self indulgent than professional.

I also do not agree with the military becoming a " social Experiment."

This is going to show up soon in our military as well as domestic and foreign affairs...the status and readiness of our military. However as you have stated..these PC type people are so deeply entrenched that it will cost many lives and careers before anyone catches it for the phoniness and fraud that it is.

And we are getting ready for something now...as we speak.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

I have spent many years and much blood while in the military and I take it very personal when people do things to it for no good reasons. I have seen the president do things that could only be political just for a few votes. Political things that may effect good discipline and conduct while in combat. This could cost lives just to secure a voting base. I don't care what party he belongs but that is f'king cold. Maybe if he had to put young soldiers in body bags he would think differently. This is the problem with having a "ruling class."

I wouldn't put anything by this administration to have something up their sleeves. I'm glad that my sons and I are finished with our military sevice and my grandchildren are way too young.

buddah6,

As a result of my fathers military service none of us children were born in the continental USA. He did more than 20 years in the US Air Force.

I remember as a very young lad when the Cuban Missile Crisis came about Dad was made to stay at the hanger out of which the engine shop worked. Even as a senior NCO he could not leave....they were cocked and locked...ready to go...and this was Strategic Air Command in those days. He came home only very briefly during that week and only to get a quick hot meal and get his ready bag which he always kept in the downstairs closet.

I never knew fully how cocked and locked we were until years later when I did my four years in the Air Force and spoke to people who were by that time senior NCOs. It was they who told me that it was that close and ready to go..down to the last button in place. My father has never spoken of it to this day. From what I can tell by the tales and stories of those in whom I came into contact..who personally lived those tense weeks...it took leadership to get us and the Russians to carefully back out of that one.

I do not believe we have this caliber of leadership today.

Today I work I a shipyard building Aircraft Carriers and Submarines. I see these young sailors..and of course every year they seem to get younger and younger. It is the same with the Army and Marines around here. Coast Guard too..for we have all the branches here close to Norfolk, Virginia.

It has been a long time since I've worn a uniform..but I still remember. After my time was up..I wanted to stay put and not move about every so many years as happened as a military dependent. I was tired of living out of a bag. But I have never forgotten ..nor the Vietnam War days...nor the conflicts after that.

There have been more conflicts ..sufficient that as one ages...and takes RISKS for ones monies..that you still remember the military and what it was like to get up on alert early in the morning and find ones self on a plane and halfway across the country
with ones tools and gear..to keep things going..far from home.


But we had confidence in our immediate leadership back then..that we would be mostly watched over...that we would not be left behind...or not supported.

I do not get this sense today in a day and time of mostly PC or political expediency.

My fear for America is that our people will be left to lie "In Flanders Fields."

And as a result...Our nation to lie "In Flanders Fields."

For people who know or have put their lives and safety on the line and far away from home know the value of Peace.

I despise PC in the same manner that the military taught me to despise Bravo Sierra.


My Thanks to you for your service to our nation and people as well as that of your sons,

Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

Up front, I want to thank you also for your service as well.

I'm so heart broken by the condition of my country. I'm in my sixties and all of this is new to me. I have never seen everyone at each others throat as we are today. Even in the 1960 riots the country wasn't in such a malaise.