I Would Side With the Serpent

reply to post by dzonatas

 

You are rich if you think it is so extremely easy. Many people spend years to learn a language that enables them to read the bibles.

Some spend many more years to trace down the original content and context. To have that given to you at face value is rich.
While this is true, one finds that context emerges naturally, as one reads the text. For a Christian, the study of the Bible becomes a life long exercise. Sure, learning original languages enhances comprehension, but it is not requisite. A self-evident testimony to this fact is the choice of languages that the Bible is written in, and the choice of author to write it. For the most part, the Bible was not written by scholars, but unlearned men. The New Testament language was not the Classical Greek of the philosophers, but the Koine Greek of the merchant.

My point is that the Bible does not require a thorough knowledge of its hidden meanings to grasp its main subject matter. By using the term "face value", I mean reading its plain meaning, in light of each other statement. One pass through, you get a broad picture, next pass through you get a deeper understanding. Historical context, more depth. Learn the original languages, deeper again. But all along, the same core meaning.

There are passages that are structured in a way that the only way to read it is by interpretation it in order to get some idea out of it. To just read it at face value is not an interpretation if what you read is correct scripture. It is not that people don't want to take it literally, it is that some passages are setup so you can't take them literally.

Can you please give some examples, and how you came to conclusions you did, regarding your interpretive method?

Some mistake the "Word" meant "the written words," and even the bible shows that is not true with example where people have taken "Word" to literally mean "written words" and other times where "Word" meant "Jesus" and so on. We know today that Word means a delineation of fundamental ideas that we can identify.

Yes, this is true, but again, either this is pointed out in the text itself, or the statement exists elsewhere, in plain form.

If everybody was born with intrinsic memory so the fundamental ideas are known and that everybody identified them the same, then you could say it is "extremely easy." Instead, like most, I'm sure you had to learn....

There is one other factor, that being referred to in the following passage:

Be sure to reflect upon that when you read Matthew-19:26.

Oh, wait....wasn't it you who brought this verse up

You would not find it a compliment when others start to test your degree of perfection.

Hey, I'll save you the trouble. I'm far from perfect. The Bible on the other hand...

Returning to the OP... None of what you have said leaves any room for any other conclusion to be drawn from Revelation 12, other than that the Serpent's true identity is "the Devil, and Satan", without forcing your own meaning on the words written.

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
Returning to the OP... None of what you have said leaves any room for any other conclusion to be drawn from Revelation 12, other than that the Serpent's true identity is "the Devil, and Satan", without forcing your own meaning on the words written.

Yes, this is true.
But my stance is that "Satan" is the good guy.


Can I ask you something?
I do agree that the Bible demands to be followed to the letter. It is very clear on this. So, given this, I wonder how you bring yourself to justify some of the orders within it, such as burying people alive to found a city, or stoning people to death and killing without pity?

(e.g. Ezekiel 9:5, Exodus 12:29, Leviticus 26:21-22, Deuteronomy 2:34, 28:15 etc.)

Originally posted by DaisyAnne

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
Returning to the OP... None of what you have said leaves any room for any other conclusion to be drawn from Revelation 12, other than that the Serpent's true identity is "the Devil, and Satan", without forcing your own meaning on the words written.

Yes, this is true.
But my stance is that "Satan" is the good guy.

I second that. I did not grow up in a religious country, let alone in a religious family and yet the centuries of god propaganda had made their mark even in the "godless" country I grew up in.

Subconsciously we think that "god" is the good one and "satan" is the bad one.
Any question as to why is this so triggers a violent reaction in the psyche. This programmed response has been carried out with various degrees of cruelty throughout history.

Who are we kidding, how many of us would be able to say this, much less discuss it in 14th century Spain or in most Middle East countries today?


Good to see you back, DaisyAnne.

I just feel the need to inform the TC that he is not very open minded or for lack of a better word, smart. I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but it's the truth. You have such a bad concept of how God works it's ridiculous, and anyone with any in-depth knowledge of the subject would make a mockery of you. I can't point out what exactly it is, because it's everything you've said put together that makes me question you IQ. God does not perceive time like we do. I hate to use a comic as an example but, have you ever seen the Watchmen, or read the graphic novel? The way Dr. Manhatten describes himself is a very good way to describe how a being such as God that exists outside of our dimensional dilemmas would perceive this universe. He perceives time as all one instant event. No past or future, everything that ever happens or will happen or has happened, he sees all as one moment. God created us in the beginning but had no way of knowing beforehand how out of hand we would get. I'm sure he had an idea maybe, but we have free will, and there is NO pre-determined destiny. God does not effect the outcome of our ignorance, it is OUR faults that the world is in such bad shape, and it is OUR responsibility for everything that happens to us, and noone elses! Do some research before posting strong opinions, that's all I'm saying.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by Maj35t1cI2]

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


I don't even know where to begin with you!

First of all, you should have worded that into two separate paragraphs. It was difficult to follow when you switched from blatant insults into what?... A half-assed justification for your blatantly ignorant display?

I see you have been warned recently. I see you have an "angel" for an avatar.
I think you need to take a look in the mirror.
You are making me more firm in my beliefs by the second!

[edit on 3-9-2009 by JayinAR]

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Maj35t1cI2

 

I don't even know where to begin with you!

First of all, you should have worded that into two separate paragraphs. It was difficult to follow when you switched from blatant insults into what?... A half-assed justification for your blatantly ignorant display?

I see you have been warned recently. I see you have an "angel" for an avatar.
I think you need to take a look in the mirror.
You are making me more firm in my beliefs by the second!

[edit on 3-9-2009 by JayinAR]

Uh it's the logo of a very famous hacker actually, and I didn't realize being grammatically correct on an internet forum was a sign of intelligence, so sorry I didn't seperate paragraphs but I made a very good point actually. If you want to remain the way you are then I could care less, I just really wanted to point out your lack of intelligence because I think this site's logo is "deny ignorance." If you give me your email I can tell you exactly what I want to say without being banned, otherwise good day and don't respond to me again unless you want to rack your brain with another one of my "hard to read" posts

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Maj35t1cI2]

I would too. He told more of the truth than God did.

I would too. He told more of the truth than God did.

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


You mention you have the logo of a hacker for your avatar and then ask me for my email?!


Your response indicates that you don't think I have the intelligence to comprehend you?

Did you not read my response? Half of your posting was spent on reiterating an insult over and over. And the rest was some sort of reason for why you just WASTED all of that effort.
There wasn't a single thing in your post that was worth the effort of my consideration!

You are an intellectual lightweight.
Come get my email addy, hacker.

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


Alright, now that I trust you have secured my email address. I'll go ahead and tell you what I think of your initial post in a little more "respectable" manner. (By the way, you won't find anything on my hard-drive. I have no personal info on there.)

It follows... you spent the first three lines of your post insulting me. And then you reiterated my point all along.
You see, god WOULD NECESSARILY be an upper-dimensional being being able to view ALL OUTCOMES of EVERY DECISION made on this planet PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!!!
You have no free will.
You were designed for a purpose and it is a purpose you cannot break!
That being said, "God" is a slavemaster and the serpent is someone rebelling against "God" because he actually pities the plight of man.... AT THE BEHEST OF GOD!!!

How about lets actually talk about the issues rather than commit crimes and shout ignorance!

For any mods that may be watching, I'm pretty sure this dude just made an attempt at my information here.
I had a remote device deny my access to this site for about 10 minutes shortly after I requested the hacker to actually take my email addy.

Not that I'm all that concerned, just sayin.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Maj35t1cI2

 

You mention you have the logo of a hacker for your avatar and then ask me for my email?!

Your response indicates that you don't think I have the intelligence to comprehend you?

Did you not read my response? Half of your posting was spent on reiterating an insult over and over. And the rest was some sort of reason for why you just WASTED all of that effort.
There wasn't a single thing in your post that was worth the effort of my consideration!

You are an intellectual lightweight.
Come get my email addy, hacker.

Whatever you say...

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


Care to address the post I made just below that one.
The one where I gave you recognition of being a person with an IQ higher than I initially guaged it?

Do you see your error? Aside from the crime you commited?

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Maj35t1cI2

 

Care to address the post I made just below that one.
The one where I gave you recognition of being a person with an IQ higher than I initially guaged it?

Do you see your error? Aside from the crime you commited?

I did not see that lol. Ok well btw, I didn't make any attempt to take your information. What possible use could I have with it? lol I could of if I wanted to no problem but there is no reason for me too. I disagree. We do have free will, God knows what's going to happen, but he didn't predetermine it. Life is making its own decisions free of persuasion from any being. You're giving Him too much credit. I don't believe in destiny.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Maj35t1cI2]

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


Oh no, there is no doubt, you know what you are doing.

If you don't want to respond to my objection in your posts, so be it.
Just because you have studied code, doesn't mean you understand the finer respects of religious philosophy.

This is where the question lies. Not in your ability to attack ATS' servers and isolate my connection.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Maj35t1cI2

 

Oh no, there is no doubt, you know what you are doing.

If you don't want to respond to my objection in your posts, so be it.
Just because you have studied code, doesn't mean you understand the finer respects of religious philosophy.

This is where the question lies. Not in your ability to attack ATS' servers and isolate my connection.

I know quite a great deal about christianity thank you. I am going to have to just disagree with you, that's all. I don't want to get all into it though. I just wanted to really throw in 2 cents at the time of my first post. Agreeing to disagree is ok by me. Good day

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2


I don't know what possible use you could have with my email address.
I'm not a hacker you see, but I'm not an idiot either.
I was denied access to this site for approx. 10 minutes by a remote device. It wasn't my connection to my service provider and it wasn't my service provider's access to this site's servers.

Interesting even moreso is that when I noted that it was THIS SITE that was hacked to gain my personal information you deny anything.

If I am correct about this, I'll be flooded with something and have to go buy another cheap piece-o to continue to surf the net. Doesn't bother me.

Like you said, "what can I gain?"
Nothing. There is nothing on my hard-drive.
I have a stand-alone system for personal info that is only connected occasionally to pay bills... with a dynamic access.

reply to post by JayinAR


I don't know why he wants your personal email address. He could just use the u2u mail on here to reach you.

reply to post by DaisyAnne

 

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
Returning to the OP... None of what you have said leaves any room for any other conclusion to be drawn from Revelation 12, other than that the Serpent's true identity is "the Devil, and Satan", without forcing your own meaning on the words written.

Yes, this is true.
But my stance is that "Satan" is the good guy

I seem to be having two slightly different dialogues here. With you it seems to be more philosophical: "Who is the good guy, Yahweh or Enki (the Serpent)?" but with dzonatas it is more theological: "Does the Bible say that the Serpent is the same character as Satan?" You seem to agree with me in my discussion with dzonatas, who the above quote was directed at.

Can I ask you something?
I do agree that the Bible demands to be followed to the letter.

Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you on this. This will probably serve more as an introduction to a future post(s), where I will address the specific passages you have cited (excellent choices, by the way).

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I don't agree with your above statement. It isn't so much a matter of the Bible being "followed to the letter", but more that the Bible plainly defines reality, with its causes and effects, outlining an ideal course of action, and a means of redemption, if that course is deviated from. This is true for both the Old and New Testaments, but it is more obvious in the New than the Old. Mere adherence to the "letter of the law" is often frowned upon.

There is something in the human psyche, possibly a result of eating of "the Tree", that prefers to "learn by itself" than to be "told by another". I have often mused at how much easier it more be in my day job (I work for a supplier of industrial tools and equiptment), if tradesmen would be able to put their egos aside for a moment, and trust that we actually know what we are talking about, because this is what we do. Unfortunately, unless we want to sell something, only to have the guy come back in a couple of days claiming the tool doesn't work properly, or that it isn't want they asked for, we have to stand there and spend what can sometimes take over an hour, pointing out every little feature, and why they will either cause a problem, or simply not do what they want do do. All that down time could be allivated if they simply came to us with the problem they are trying to address, and trusted the advice we gave them.

I regards to matters of "faith", there seems to be a similar problem. Faith, properly defined, could be rendered as "trust" to convey the same meaning. Faith in God is essentially believing what He has to say on a matter, because He is trustworthy. In my reply to Our Lord And Master I gave an illustration based on a parent and a child, where it was in the best interests for the child to comply, without explanation, regardless of whether they agreed with the directive or not. A responsible parent would wait until the child's maturity and emotional capacity could handle such knowledge, and it would be up to the parent to make such a call, rather than the child.

I have found myself being persecuted for pointing out some key principles in Scripture, plainly (I had one pastor make a point of telling me that it took alot to make him angry, and that I had succeeded) frankly because they weren't conducive to goals and aims that the church leadership had established, in ignorance of the facts. And yet, when I patiently built my case, over the space of a year, answering each objection, one at a time, I have had leaders express their gratitude for what they were being shown.

The Bible applies a similar logic. The more immediate issues, are more plainly stated, with the confusing being adressed slowly.

reply to post by Maj35t1cI2

 

God created us in the beginning but had no way of knowing beforehand how out of hand we would get. I'm sure he had an idea maybe, but we have free will, and there is NO pre-determined destiny. God does not effect the outcome of our ignorance, it is OUR faults that the world is in such bad shape, and it is OUR responsibility for everything that happens to us, and noone elses! Do some research before posting strong opinions, that's all I'm saying.

I have to admit Maj35t1c12 that the comments made in this post appear contradictionary, and are largely speculative. The concept you have presented, regarding the relationship between God and time, is never actually stated as such, in Scripture, and as a result the church has an Arminian/Calvinist divide over the issue of the issue of predestination.

Its okay to state your opinions, but when you do so, as if they are factual, in a post that rebukes someone else for not demonstrating research, displays the same lack of intelligence that you are accusing JayinAR of. The fact is, for one to draw the conclusion that it is a denial of freewill, if God creates a universe, with inhabitants, and then admits to knowing the end from the beginning, is a display of rational logic, and constitutes an intelligent statement, whether it is correct or not ... at least as intelligent as what you have put forward.

And it certainly helps to put a litlle "grammatical effort" into your posts as well because, like it or not, this is an element of what intelligence is.