Is there an ARCHAEOLOGICAL COVERUP going on in New Zealand?

NZ govt has a hard time covering up the PM speeding to a meeting much less archaeological scandals. The country is just too small.. you get what 20-30 people involved in this 'cover up' and it would last a week and the whole country would know about it. Kiwis are extremely open and love to chatter. IMO something this big simply couldn't maintain a cover up here.

well i thought that the hidden graves were because of the mutilation and canibalism carried out by the white settlers and explorers when they arrived. That's what it always is in australia anyway.

Adding a little bit more...

Just throwing in some more korero in regards to why things may be 'covered up'.

That word *cover up* immediately sets off alarms bells doesn't it...certainly we as humans are inquisitive by nature, and as soon as someone has a secret we just wanna know! Indeed thats pretty much the core reason of this very site...

...however, while the saying 'Knowledge is Power' is indeed true in many ways, sometimes 'Knowledge is Dangerous'.

Give you an example:
I was raised being taught numerous things about my culture, descend from a long line of Rangatira, Ariki, Tohunga, Matakite. People will what could be termed Esoteric Knowledges of my culture.

I say that not to be, as we say *whakahihi* or *boastful - rather to highlight that in some cultures some knowledges are kept within certain groups.

Now - on some levels that may seem wrong - why would any group restrict knowledge? Does that not create a power imbalance? Would that therefore not in some ways previllage those within that 'knowledge circle' above those outside of it?

Sure - I can see how keeping a set of knowledges restricted to a selected few can seem like something underhanded - but sometimes there is reason for that.

Sometimes knowledges come with their own knowledges. Sometimes knowledge isn't just about learning something - but about LIVING it. Sometimes knowledge isn't about knowing something on paper, but also KNOWING it right at the very core of your being.
Sometimes knowledge can be dangerous if the person only has a small part of the wider knowledge.

For instance - I was taught from a young age about Rongoa/Natural Medicenes of our culture.
Where to find specific Rongoa, how to harvest, prepare, store, administer it etc.
While indeed the usage of Rongoa can promote healing...and does when utilised correctly...it does - despite being 'all natural' - have its risks also.
The last thing you really need is someone with half a clue about Rongoa going out and *administering* it to all and sundry.
You HAVE to know how Rongoa interacts with many other things, you HAVE to know the EXACT processes of preparation or combinations of different Rongoa...you HAVE to have full training and knowledge (and I'm gonna throw it out there, both learned and INNATE) of it...

...effective usage of Rongoa isn't something you learn from a book.
It isn't something you learn from a few night classes.
Its something you learn throughout your life - and, I believe, it is something that has an element you are BORN with.
That element is the Wairua/Spiritual side of Rongoa...and that element comes via Whakapapa/Ancestry rather than something that can be taught.

All elements work in unison. Without an element there is risk. And so, with certain Rongoa they are not *taught* to everybody and anybody...only those who 'fit the requirements'.



So too are our Wahi Tapu/Sacred Sites.
People can poo-poo this all they want...good on 'em...but its something I do believe and have experienced, as has been my upbringing and whakapapa.
I do believe there are areas that are essentially Restricted Areas...and restricted NOT for any sense of 'Haha, I'm better than you coz I know where they are' kinda thing...but restricted for safety.
Some Wahi Tapu are like that.
Some Wahi Tapu are restricted due to the importance of that place for the particular Iwi/Tribe or Hapu/Subtribe that may be the Kaitiaki/Gaurdian of that area.
As such its their (that Iwi/Hapu) role to KEEP it secret...to keep it restricted and protected...lest everyone knows and starts wandering all around it and breaching the Tapu/sacredness of that place.

And example of that you may want to check out is in the Central North Island, around Atiamuri.
There were indeed some very old Wahi Tapu there which the local Hapu were kaitaiki of for centuries...kept secret, kept hidden. Within those Wahi Tapu were many taonga/treasures...which weren't removed from those areas, they were left there as they were deemed either 1)too tapu/sacred to remove, and 1) contributed to the Mauri/Life-force of that area.

What happened some years ago was that the secret got out...after all those centuries.
Someone shot their mouth off, people started going into those places and desecrating those sites, removing taonga from those sites, damaging the rock structures there as many people were going in there for a look around at this special place and what was there...

...end result...the Mauri/lifeforce of that Wahi Tapu was smashed, the Mana/prestige of that Hapu charged with being Kaitiaki/gaurdian of it was also smashed...basically it was a time of great shame for them, and a time of basically people with no real concept of how special some of those taonga were coming in and theiving off with them to sell as trinkets or put around their house like some ornament.


Again - people may poo-poo this...but places, object, they have Mauri/lifeforce. They have Wairua/Spirit...and sometimes a *cover up* isn't about any suppression of the people, its about ensuring the protection of that Mauri and Wairua of that place or thing...




Peace.

reply to post by alien


Kia Ora alien.
I appreciate your input.
While different cultures have different perceptions about things sacred/ matters of the spirit/wairua and completely different worldviews I can understand the importance of keeping sacred things sacred and the perils and dangers (both real and imagined) of breaking the glass between the sacred and the profane.
Herbal lore is definitely something that is not to be taken lightly and, dare I say, even the phases of the moon and the type of soil/animal life is also important when collecting plant material along with one's state of kind and the approach (internally) that they take when embarking on this journey (I consider it a journey). If one listens to the land, one can hear it answer.

This strikes me as an odd thing for me to say, as a Pakeha Geologist, but I do listen to the land, in what some may term an ethereal, empathic sense but when I do I am struck with different emotions depending on what and where the land is as well as what has occurred previously on that land.
This is why I class myself as Tangata Whenua. I don't expect people to agree with me, or even like my appropriation, yet I will stand and defend my decision based on my personal feelings, history and my future.

Thanks for your time.


Edit: do you think it is possible that some Wahi Tapu are there because of earlier inhabitants and that some Kaitiaki are in possession of knowledge that will never surface beyond the appropriate levels? ....much like the mysteries of Catholicism perhaps?

[edit on 9-8-2009 by aorAki]

reply to post by aorAki


Kia Ora ano Aoraki,

Love your user-name by the way...

Absolutely I reckon you can call yourself Tangata Whenua...all it really means when you boil it down and strip away some of the romantic mysticism around that kupu is: Person/People of the Land.
The true sense of that kupu is about connection to the whenua/land...its that love and link beyond blood and bones to that whenua...its truly a link that is more on the level of wairua/spirit as opposed to tinana/body...

...in that regards, be ye Maori, be ye Pakeha, kua pai tena...if your heart and soul is linked to that whenua then absolutely IMHO that allows you to say you are Tangata Whenua...for in doing so you are acknowledging the land and its importance to you moreso than yourself.

....do you think it is possible that some Wahi Tapu are there because of earlier inhabitants and that some Kaitiaki are in possession of knowledge that will never surface beyond the appropriate levels? ....much like the mysteries of Catholicism perhaps?

Totally.

I know of some sites in Aotearoa which hold bones etc such as described in this thread.
Those bones, by the very nature, size etc of them - I don't believe, and nor do the kaumatua/elders I know - aren't Maori. They aren't *ours*, or at least not *ours* as we know.
There is one I know of that is still kept secret to keep safe the resting place of a people who were there prior to that Hapu.

Some sites I'm thinking of are also places which are in some ways seen as...whats a way of describing them, ummm, 'energy nexus'...they are places where as you say you can just *listen* to it.

They are places that sometimes that *listening* is very literal.
I know of one in particular that emits the stereotypical 'buzzing' sound...like you can hear when standing under highvoltage power pylons and the like.
They are places you really need to leave your watches and cellphones behind...or its likely they aren't gonna work again. Cost me a nice Seiko once...

Some of these places are places where certain events have happened, certain rituals have taken place...and as such they are kept out-of-bounds in order to protect people from wandering around them and picking up some of the more *negative energies* that permiate through them.

So...yes...for some places its not so much about safegaurding what the locals wish to keep hidden, its about safegaurding what was left by others before them.


I also do believe on some levels there are knowledges that will always remain within certain circles.
Again - IMO - thats not about suppression, its about safegaurd.
Knowledge is Power. A little knowledge is dangerous.

As hinted at in the previous reply...some knowledges require whakapapa, require a level of Wairua to hold safe - or more correctly to keep YOURSELF safe while holding them.



Peace.



[edit on 10-8-2009 by alien]

reply to post by alien


Hi Alien,

Great to see a mod from NZ on here.
I am a first generation kiwi of euro descent, whom was raised in the lush bush of the waitakere ranges. Because of this I learned to connect with the land at a young age. One area in particular that strikes me the most is mt taranaki, another is whatipu (west auckland) - it has a very strong spirit to it and some very interesting sounds.

Your post taught me some rather interesting aspects of Maori life which I have never heard of before. Much of Maori culture that is taught in school does not really embrace the true spiritual/medicinal side of things, which is very useful and important. In this day and age many do not respect, love and care for the land and its people enough. I believe these important values should be instilled in education in a much more positive and interesting way.


On the topic of the coverup: I too have heard of quite a few sites scattered throughout New Zealand. Here is a website with some interesting reading and photos of some sites, incl red hair covered skull shots from previous links.

www.kilts.co.nz...

reply to post by GhostR1der
The link you posted is associated with the same white nationalists as the others. What could Taine Ruaridh Mhor and his family have done that would prompt a banishment to an island several thousand miles away? A journey that would take months to get there. It smells like retro-history so I checked.

(Taine Rory Mhor ) Taine Ruaridh Mhor (the big cattle farmer) was delivered by three seagoing longships (birlinns?) to NZ in the 12th Century, with 95 of his family and kinfolk and followers. And sons Rory and Ruaridh. It was deliberate but not by choice. Banishment was not an uncommon feature of the times and in this case the term was for seven generations after he had been incacerated in a dungeon for three years already by his friend King Alexander I of Scotland (reigned 1107-1124AD).

From link.

The only references to this character are in relation to the claims of this handful of sites. It's also a page that was deleted by Wikipedia for innaccuracy, spamming and associations to the same white supremacist agendas...

It's not just a piece of fanciful pseudo history, but part of white-supremacist propaganda effort; some NZ nazi group spent some effort a few months ago trying to get their drivel into wikipedia, and turned nasty when they failed. I expect this is a piece of their material that slipped under our radar.

Deleted link

12th Century? Maoris were already there.

This site is now difficult to reach by sea and little known. The original boat access is much changed and boat access is best achieved from an adjacent bay. It is also in the vicinity of a town, possibly of underground Scara-brae style dwellings, ancient Scottish/Celtic graves and sites of genocide and other atrocities.

For guys claiming conspiracy...why not share the location? Is it because perhaps the remains of the walls are much later? Without locations, there's no way of knowing

True colors?

The people removed by murder, rapine and desolation of the worst kind? Dubious land claims recognised by the Waitangi Tribunal have not addressed the situation that will arise when descendants of the early Scottish settlers make their legitimate claims as the original indigenous population. Their documented history of possession starting in the 11th Century when the land had NO other inhabitants will be revealed! Similar claims could no doubt be made against Maori by descendants of Waitaha, Moriori, by Portuguese settlers, even by the Patu-paiarehe or Turehu if any still remain alive. (And strangely enough it seems there may have been reasonably recent sightings of these folk.). How far back do we go do we go to make restitutions? Is the Waitangi tribunal acting out of fairness or has it become rampant revenge on the part of some Maori? Or a means to entrench a Maori aristocracy to overlord it's graft and corruption into a society already labouring under other inequities?

This is the essence behind the claims of a white indigenous population.

reply to post by Kandinsky


You already linked to this site:
No to Nazi pseudo history
Thanks for that, it's worth the exponentially long read.

It's a long debate. But in the end (right at the end), an archaeologist by the name of Edward goes into some specifics and he nails this white supremacy guy. It's pretty good that he does, because it is possible to be a white supremacist and still be right about a theory pertaining to NZ history and related cover ups. But this Doutre guy is not right... that is to say, he has no proof and no viable evidence and he has no idea about what the truth is. He just knows what he wants the past to be.

Also, Doutre proves to be quite good at debating, and until that Edward guy pulls out the big guns, he keeps himself looking like he might be the suppressed voice of truth dealing with unfair character assassination.

So was there no pre-Maori population and no government cover up to hid that history? I don't know, I wouldn't have a clue. Maybe there was, but I do now know that Doutre knows nothing about that either.

So, I'm calling him a liar.

reply to post by rapunzel222


There are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of "alternative" archeology that have been published over the years in North America and covering a very wide range of issues. All of it is attacked, criticized or ignored. There is not a single serious investigator offering evidence against the official version that has not been taken to the tower, as it were, for their theories and evidence.

The official sources have over the years inadvertently published some of it themselves. lol

Many many 7 foot tall skeletons have been found in North America. Many in stone cist graves in conjunction with stone walled enclosures or hill forts. Some have even been found at times with adult skeletons much smaller around 5 foot suggesting they mingled with the natives. In some cases larger graves show separate burial customs present at the same group grave, usually a burial mound. Also metal working evidence such as copper smelting facilities and early iron furnaces are found in conjunction with the larger skeletons. They are relatively few in number but wide spread among the continent. Some have even been found with red hair remaining.



[edit on 12-8-2009 by Logarock]

reply to post by Recouper
Well said, Recouper! I'm happy that at least one person can see through the BS by checking for themselves. When I began reading all the sites and checking their evidence, I was admittedly doubtful. Halfway through, I was becoming swayed by their presented evidence. I was persuaded to believe some of it. Since looking around, like yourself, it's clearer and clearer that it's a political, racist attempt at a land grab.


People on ATS should be fascinated by this NZ conspiracy. They almost succeeded in planting pages across Wikipedia and other wikis from where they could source their claims on other websites. They've set up at least 4 domains and released books and articles. Made contacts with European white supremacists and orchestrated the grass roots of a Maori repatriation and attempt to usurp control of NZ.

That's an ambitious conspiracy, but the thread just goes dead. It seems folk don't want truth they want a red-haired race civilizing the 'dumb natives.' It's the wrong type of conspiracy

The story about the bridge and pots i always thought was pretty interesting, my family can remember seeing it on the news.

Any way, here is a news story i dug up
www.times-age.co.nz...

And just to be fair, here is the other side of the story
www.times-age.co.nz...

Reeeeeally sorry if it's already been posted =)

reply to post by donteatthedaisies
Hey thanks for those links. Very interesting. Pity I can only give you a star. A dental analysisof the skull (a tiny core sample) can give a fairly accurate idea of where the person grew up based on isotope content. So simple, but bogged down in respect and tradition. It's highly unlikely that there was a white indigenous population, but it'd be productive to identify and age some of these mystery bones. The beauty of history is that it alters to accept new findings.

After reading about these white nationalist schemers, it's worth considering the provenance of the skull that the boy found. The lengths Dutre and associates have gone to leaves no doubt in my mind that they'd be prepared to plant evidence to support their claims. How could they get hold of a 300 year old Caucasian skull? They've got supporters in museums and maybe aren't averse to digging up an old grave? They've muddied the waters so much already, evidence would need to have a very, very good provenance!

reply to post by Kandinsky



Well whatever the origin it may simply be a case of bing driven out of wherever they were from. It would be shameful not to give this fair consideration becouse of current racial politics.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

Well whatever the origin it may simply be a case of bing driven out of wherever they were from. It would be shameful not to give this fair consideration becouse of current racial politics.

I don't disagree. In North America, NAs have final say on what happens to any remains that belong to them. This has seen some very interesting finds returned for burial without analysis. From a science point of view, it's possibly a great loss. From a personal point of view, it's balanced out by according people respect.

If we look at the fate of Otzi the Iceman, it seems like science has got all it can from the guy. Time to put him in the earth, but he has no descendants and his remains are carried around the world on display. A shame. Contrast that with Kwaday Dän Ts'inchì Chronology.

Edit for better link...here.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Kandinsky]

Never really considered white nationalists planting evidence before, i'd think if they were going to do that they might get hold of a slightly older skull? 'cause 300 years is pretty borderline, but then maybe thats how they want people to think
Any way no one can be too sure if it is even european without a proper examination of the skull, but i'd be inclined to go with Dr Leach. It's unlikely, but not impossible that there were a handful of Europeans here before we thought.

reply to post by donteatthedaisies


From what I've read, planting of evidence is something these guys are capable of. Edward (who I mentioned before) said this:

"Some of his other “sites” consist of rocks deposited across the landscape due to volcanic activity. He then usually sets out to subjectively record those rocks which might fit a particular pattern he wishes to create, such as a pentagram of whathaveyou. The problem is that he ignores the fact that the entire field is covered in rocks which have been deposited by the nearby volcano or whatever so his selection of the “meaningful” rocks which he will use in his ‘analysis’ (for lack of as better word) is completely subjective and in a sense predetermined by his hypothesis."

He's being too kind... Edward accuses Doutre of being incompetent. I accuse him of being dishonest. I've read a lot of comments from Doutre and the guy is smooth, he doesn't miss a thing. He wouldn't make a mistake like Edward described above, it's an example of Doutre out to consciously create data out of nothing in order to mislead.
So when Kandinsky suggests that the evidence may have been planted, it's more than a remote possibility and it's certainly worth considering.

Interesting read...........

I have no info one way or the other about this. It is interesting to hear about cover up's, worldwide, and the fact people are taking notice.

Other than this is in-part steps on the stairway to full disclosure. When we learn about our past, we will find the path way into the future.

Interesting times.........

Originally posted by win 52
Interesting read...........

I have no info one way or the other about this. It is interesting to hear about cover up's, worldwide, and the fact people are taking notice.

Other than this is in-part steps on the stairway to full disclosure. When we learn about our past, we will find the path way into the future.

Interesting times.........

Friend, have you read the thread? There is enough info to come to an informed opinion. If you encourage the spread of a story that claims three species of white native on NZ (pygmy, giant and 'normal'), you're acting as a cat's paw for people that don't want 'disclosure.'

In fact, they want the opposite...they want to seed the ideas that whites are superior in intelligence, technology and society to any other people. The 'red-haired' legends are usually sourced to people that can't or won't accept that S.Americans could build their own monuments or that Giza wasn't built by black guys. Those websites in this thread are coming from a very dark place and your 'path into the future' would be repatriation of non-whites...violence and bigotry. And one thing people always seem to ignore? The shoe could be on the other foot. I ******* hate racists of any color.

Tibet, Stonehenge, Giza, Macchu Pichu...four great places built by four different colored peoples. Four flavors of the Human Race.

reply to post by Recouper
Hey Recouper, I've just added you to my 'sharp friends list.' Every damn one of 'em thinks for themselves and are sharper than a Wile E. Coyote cactus.

Keep up the good work!

reply to post by donteatthedaisies
I think you make a good point about 300 years old. White guys have only been in the S. Hemisphere for around that long...maybe it's the oldest skull they could get a hold of? Then again, like you say, it could be anything...white, Maori etc. Either would be interesting to me.

We've got a party called BNP in the UK...they put a very shiny face on. Their history isn't that shiny and their connections and backers less so.

All I see with racial Nationalism is darkness. Whites kicked out of Zimbabwe, blacks segregated in S. Africa, Jews in Germany, Rwanda etc. They all built up into murder and violence. Stakes are high...property, power and wealth.