sholin monks, yogis, do they really have powers?

I've read so many threads and talked to many different people who are convinced that these spiritual masters have some sort of untapped power, which normal humans do not. Has any scientist EVER proven that these power actually exist or is it just people wishing and claiming that these powers exist becuase they are such spiritual leaders (when in actuallity there are no more metaphysically powerful than any other human). I believe there are several science labratories that take people who claim to have psyic powers and they have always proven conclusively that no such power exists... now why is everyone so furvently believe that these monks/yogis have powers that famous phyicis themselves cannot prove to modern science??

reply to post by hiii_98


No one possesses more power than one another.
We are all equal, and are all powerful.

These so called "Masters" simply take more time into learning how to control theses powers, control the essence, and use it.

You can do it.
I can do it.
We can do it.

Jacob

reply to post by hiii_98


I saw a great video once showing a monk channeling his Chi and setting something on fire with it. There were other examples he demonstrated, but that one stuck in my head.

I studied and taught Tae Kwon Do for about 7 years. I never got to the point of setting paper on fire (lol) but I did learn about channeling Chi energy towards a task. By the end of my training I was able to break 2 plastic practice bricks with my fist with no pain, so I personally can validate that there is something to it.

In addition, there is no scientific reason why we couldn't have abilities like the ones described in legend. We just have not yet figured out how to mechanically do it. I think it might be a matter of utilizing some of the less accessed parts of our brains.

Originally posted by rogerstigers
reply to post by hiii_98

 

I saw a great video once showing a monk channeling his Chi and setting something on fire with it. There were other examples he demonstrated, but that one stuck in my head.

I studied and taught Tae Kwon Do for about 7 years. I never got to the point of setting paper on fire (lol) but I did learn about channeling Chi energy towards a task. By the end of my training I was able to break 2 plastic practice bricks with my fist with no pain, so I personally can validate that there is something to it.

In addition, there is no scientific reason why we couldn't have abilities like the ones described in legend. We just have not yet figured out how to mechanically do it. I think it might be a matter of utilizing some of the less accessed parts of our brains.

i dont know how to put this lightly but so what. Anyone in a fight or flight position can do amazing things regarding strength, endurance, and stress longevity that doesnt mean you have mystical powers... honestly i just means your damn tough and having fun with your adrenaline rush. Now lighting things on fire, thats exactly the point of my thread. We all hear these stories, yet no one EVER has been able to prove they can actually do these parlor tricks... other than their audience or word of mouth. I'm all about the truth and if there really is some hidden power within then it should be verifiable by science...just once at least...and it hasnt been to my knowledge.

also i'm not reffering to guys that can break boards, eat glass, take a punch, light themselves on fire, any pain loving schitzo can do those very physical things given the right cocktail of drugs, adrenaline, or life threatening/suicidal motivation. I'm more interested in the claims of levitation, verifiable out of body experiences, telekenesis ect...


[edit on 7-8-2009 by hiii_98]

reply to post by hiii_98


Yeah, most of the research has centered on documenting physiological things (heartbeat, breath control, and various EEG brainwave things), but I remember hearing years ago of Swami Rama doing something telekinetic on demand in a laboratory, something like causing a finely-balanced metal piece sealed in a glass case, untouched, to spin...(I think it was something like a propeller/cross made from 2 knitting needles, balanced atop a pin-or-pole type thing). I forget which Phd. SR was doing this for...I'll see if I can find the reference in a minute. Amazing Randi proclaimed immediately that he could produce the same result, but I don't recall that he actually did...Plus that type of re-enactment, while suggestive, doesn't disprove that magic/siddhis/whatever also could have done it in the yogi's case...I mean, just because I can build a fire with matches doesn't mean that you don't know how to do it by rubbing two sticks together...I'll see if I can find the link I'm thinking of now....

But as to the larger question, I vote that some of the yoga supernatural so-called stuff does work...it doesn't have to be contrary to physics, we do not understand how we work yet, the correct skeptical attitude is not to say it's impossible a priori, but merely to say that you don't find any convincing evidence for it...that way you are still open to testing bs and possibly stumbling across something interesting you didn't anticipate...

reply to post by hiii_98


A theoretical physicist, Dr Stephen Phillips, has proved beyond question that a yogic siddhi with the Sanskrit name of "anima", which magnifies objects too small to be visible to the eye, was used 114 years ago to describe subatomic particles in a way that matches the quark model, facts of nuclear physics established decades later and concepts of modern string theory.
smphillips.8m.com...

thank you for the informative reply. If you have any links to tests that were conducted I would appreciate it. I'm still extremely skeptical on this topic and looking for verifiable proof.

reply to post by hiii_98


Here is a link, referencing the incident I was thinking about (not that this website guy is authoritative, but I read about this SR bit in a book many years ago, and I misremember which one)...it is a widely spoken-of fact or canard, anyway
Neil Slade on Swami Rama

I dont mean any offense, but do not find the source credible. In addition i'm biased against Uri Geller. Thank you for the link however.

I know the military has employed remote viewers and other forms of physics so I'm sure some form of extra perception powers must exist within us. Seems the verifiable evidence however is elusive.

The Tonight Show failure
Geller was unable to bend any tableware during a 1973 appearance on The Tonight Show in which the spoons he was to bend had been pre-selected by Johnny Carson. Earlier in his career, Carson had been an amateur stage magician, and he consulted Randi for advice on how to thwart potential trickery.[24] In 1993 Randi explained in "Secrets of the Psychics" for the NOVA television series: "I was asked to prevent any trickery. I told them to provide their own props and not to let Geller or his people anywhere near them." A clip of this incident was televised on the NBC show Phenomenon. This two-minute clip has been widely circulated on the Internet since James Randi acquired permission to use it from NBC, and Carson paid for the videotape transfer.[49] In his television special Secrets of the Psychics, Geller is shown failing at psychic "hand dowsing," not metal bending.[clarification needed]

[edit on 7-8-2009 by hiii_98]

(This ended up being longer than I anticipated. Breaking it up into two posts.)

do they really have powers?

Hello. I feel somewhat qualified to answer this question. I will try. But in trying to answer we run into the question of what qualifies as "powers" and we run into the question of verifiability. What have I "personally seen" vs. what have I "been told" etc. An awful lot of martial artists have been told that if they keep practicing and meditating, eventually they'll get all these powers. But if you ask how many have personally witnessed them in action...you'll usually get "oh, well my instructor said."

Which isn't a very satisfying answer.

But, on the other hand, I have personally done some things that others have seen pictures and videos of, and then been told that they didn't believe it was possible, and believed that it was all computer graphics. Even though I know it was real because again...I was the one who did it, and honestly didn't think it was that big of a deal. So again...what qualifies as a "superpower" and what doesn't may be subject to some debate. So let me start with some things that I have seen, and some things that I have not seen.

I've seen any manner of brick/board/ice/etc breaks. I've personally seen people who can smash through six inches of stacked brick WITHOUT spacers, people who can throw boards into the air and punch them in two before they hit the ground, etc. Damned impressive, yes...but I've never seen anyone do any of this without touching the things they're breaking. I've never seen anyone "throw a ki ball."

I've personally witnessed a monk maintain a two finger "handstand," supporting his entire bodyweight on only the index fingers of each hand. And he did it for a really long time. There was no question in my mind that he was really doing it, and there was no question in my mind about him "jumping in and out" to make it look like he was doing something that he wasn't. Not at all. This guy bent over, put his fingers down, had someone help him raise his legs up for balance, and then simply held it for a good 20 seconds. But I've never seen anyone use a finger to poke a hole, or write his name on a rock, which allegedly people who practice this discipline eventually are able to do.

I have personally trained in leaping-kung, and I have personally performed jumps in excess of four feet, and have personally witnessed an instructor perform a verticle jump from a stationary position that was subtantially more than anything I could do. (I realize that's somewhat vague, but the jump I'm referring to wasn't measured. He simply took my best and added some arbitrary amount to it and then did it himself. If I were to guess, probably just under 4 feet, 6 inches.) Once again...all this is somewhat impressive, but it's far cry from flying or levitating...which I have never seen.

I've personally witnessed people who can jump into the air, spin around and land on their head without injury. I have seen people who can do dive rolls over objects set at the height of their own shoulders. And I've seen a lot of this sort of thing done not only on mats, but also outdoors on concrete.

I've personally witnessed a man put out a candle using one finger from a distance of roughly five feet. But I've also done it from a lesser distance...and there's nothing supernatural about it. Yes, it looks very impressive, but it's done by making an air current, not by making a magical ki ball, and there's nothing supernatural about it at all.

------------

I'm more interested in the claims of levitation, verifiable
out of body experiences, telekenesis ect...

Ahh. Well, before I get to the "haven't seen, but knew a guy who..." stuff, let me tell you about the most convincing demonstration of "superpowers" that I've personally witnesed with my own eyes.

I was watched a training session at a ninjutsu school here in Southern California. No fancy elite secluded underground training hall or anything...this was just a regular school in a shopping district. Much of the class was unimpressive, but for their final practice before closing meditation, they did something very interesting. The instructor had the students sit in seiza in a circle around the perophery of the classroom. He then turned out the lights and put on some music. He then drew a sword and "stalked" students at random from behind from the middle of the circle. He would face a students back, and ever so slowly take a few steps forward before raising his sword to bring down in a cutting motion as if to cut off their head. And the students were to signal they they knew he was there before his swordstroke.

And they actually did it.

I sat and watched, looked for hints that they might be "cheating," tried listening for the sound of his footsteps...everything I could think of. They actually did it. Some of the students would raise their hand when he was still a few steps away, others would allow him to make the cutting motion with his sword, but move their head out of the way as he did, but so far as I could tell, they were genuinely sensing his "intent" and reacting to it without seeing or hearing him.

Is it possible it was all a ruse? Yes. Do I believe that it was? No.

Maybe that's not quite the "levitation or telekinesis" you were looking for, but it is something that I can't explain conventionally, and that I've personally seen with my own two eyes.


(Continued)

(Continued from above)

I'm more interested in the claims of levitation, verifiable
out of body experiences, telekenesis ect...

...ok. I've told you what I've seen, and what I haven't seen...but I also have a second-hand story that might interest you.

A number of years ago I was having a conversation with a former instructor about this very subject. "Getting superpowers" from training in martial arts. This was the same instructor who was able to put out a candle from five feet, and we had always shared an interest in the topic. At the time he had a lot more training time than I had, and he had spent a lot of that time training with people who had been doing martial arts for 30-40 years.

So I asked him, pretty much like you're doing now...if in his entire life he had ever personally witnessed anything that absolutely, definitely fell into the "magic / chi-balls / levitation / etc" range. He said...no. But he told me a story about an 8th degree black belt he knew who, out of desire to have the question answered himself...spent a year or two wandering throughout the orient looking for "hermit" masters. Basically yes, he went looking for real-life instances of the stereotypical crazy martial artist living in a cave training 12 hours a day.

And what he said was that after his "year or two" he never ever found anyone who would personally demonstrate flight, levitation, chi balls, or anything of that sort.

...however...

He claimed that he DID find one individual who had been practicing with energy long enough that he no longer needed to eat. Allegedly this person had gone for years without eating any kind of food at all. He drank water, and that was it. When asked how it was done, he claimed that he did it by siphoning off energy from other people.

So. The claim is what it is. I never witnessed this myself. Neither did the person who told me this story. This story is passing through three people to get to you. Is it possibly true? Well, maybe. Is it possibly false? Well, yes. It could be. Or it might simply be exaggerated.

Either way, after all my years in martial arts, after all the people I've spoken to about this very question...the answer appears to be that even in the higher circles, even amongst people with 40+ years of training, no...there's not a secret cabal of people flying around casually tossing out fireballs from their fingertips to light their cigars.

But, I'm not prepared to throw it out the window and simply say "no" because of the things that I have personally seen and done. Yes, I have personally done things that people didn't believe were possible. And wanted to slap them and say "What are you talking about? I routinely spend my thursday nights with a dozen or more people who can do this. It's not a big deal." But even so there are things I've seen that I can't explain and that bring me to ask "whoa...is that real?" Like that ninjutsu demonstration. But, that group of a dozen people who do it every class might similarly be inclined to slap me and tell me that it's not a big deal.

Is there another tier above them, who do things routinely and as a matter of course that even they would have to ask "whoa...is that real?"

Maybe.

reply t0post by hiii_98


Oh yeah, I'm with you on the source, but, he's just compiling clippings, years after the fact.
I'm thinking it was in one of Robert Monroe's books (probably Journeys Out Of The Body) where like in 1981 I first read this account.(Though Monroe was not present, I don't think...hell, I have the book(I have books stacked up ten feet high all over the house, it takes a few minutes to run one down)...
but that led me to think about Robert Monroe in connection with your request for verified/verifiable out-of-body-experiences...he's dead now but they were running that Monroe Institute school in Faber VA for many years, where they would supposedly teach you astral/OOBE for $1500...in the late 1990s I remember a front page article about this in the Wall Street Journal (the far left column of the front page, as I recall) which talked about how dull normal businessman types, even, were learning OOBE there, quoting as I recall at least a 75% + possibly up to a 90% success rate, i.e. if they can satisfy many or most, it seems more legit...

I'll see if I can find that article and link it now...I agree Neil Slade is not so credible, but the Wall Street Journal is not overly new-age groovy hoo-hah, in my book, yup-yup

And I agree, just cause they think they are astrally flying doesn't mean they are...but if a lot of the people involved have a similar story, then even if they are hypnotized or hallucinating en masse, well, that's kinda a fun subject too, if the storyline goes that way...

reply to post by hiii_98


meanwhile, here's the link to the Monroe Institute, before I go look for that front page WSJ article MONROE INSTITUTE

Well now, there is really not a lot that I can add to this discussion.

Very good post everyone.

Aa that I have to say is that if you have ever spent time working with Chi you would be more of a believer in the possibilities of what the Monks and Masters claim.

Yeah, so, the WSJ itself isn't giving up the article, I joined and all but they're not that back-archive
Evidently, however, other sites are quoting from the article, naming it as Bob Ortega, September 20, 1994 pages A1,A8 (which fits my memory cause A1 is the front page) "Research Institute Shows People A Way Out Of Their Bodies"
It's too bad I can't get it from the WSJ direct, that would be pure, but I'll see if I can find it on some other site...but in any case, allow me to assert, it was a non-debunking article, trust me on this...It was like "holy split, this stuff must be real" was my reaction reading it...and in fact ever since I read the article I've been intending to go to Virginia spend the money and check it out (I'm all ADD, I have a 10,000 item to-do list...but I do expect to get to that task in the next 2 or 3 years, maybe)

So now I'll look for the article reprinted so's I can link to it...

thank you both for the enriching information on this topic. Glad i asked!

reply to post by LordBucket


Interesting story...

The stuff about not eating

This is obviously true... I have not heard about drawing energy off others as a method before... but have practiced another method by which I absorb it from the sun, through my eyes at sunset after havintg that method described to me some time ago.

You have to meditate on the setting sun any other time of day you will hurt your eyes, the point where the sun is starting to dip below the horizon.

I'm pretty good at it, a session can take me a full day almost, without hunger pangs, without weight loss

most I have done is a few day in a row...

I enjoy food ...

but have heard of people doing it perpetually

The person that explained it to me ate, some basic food a couple of times a month and drank tea as well, like single orange or an apple, maybe some rice, but solid food was a once a week thing at most and then literally an orange or something similar

and tea was daily, in addition to water

But that was all

So I fully believe that story is true, I can squash my hunger entirely through my method and... I don't loose body fat or muscle when I do it, I actually have about a half inch I can't get rid of lol

reply to post by LordBucket


And

I compliment your honesty

I have seen/ experienced things in the same realm...

defiance of pain

limited anti gravity, i.e. incredible leaps, breaks

non needing food,

Not needing sleep

the ability to pick up on others thoughts and pressence

hearing, the capacity to calm the mind and hear far beyond the ordinary, miles and miles in fact

even the ability to manifest, i.e. make things go your way in life

but

levitation?

Ki ball's ?

teleportation ?

Never seen it either



I'd say a few things of interest though that haven't been mentioned that I DO know of

Curses

Your Energy can actually curse a person particularly if within ear shot but not necessary, this is real phenomena

and

Time distortion

You can alter and control the way your brain perceives time and lean your life and action to more extraordinary feats

from dodging a punch to finishing your homework faster etc...


we all experience both of the above daily...

i.e. how when happy time seems to "fly" and when miserable it seems to slow down

nad if you ever hurt someone or had something hurtful said and became sick or had bad luck...

I don't pose any of it as "supernatural" it's not, in fact the common Bat, use's perception of time to be able to comprehend it's sound radar...

Just saying it's real

and frankly

what we CAN do just the list of what i've seen or done

Honed to a fine edge

you might as well have super powers

so

teleportation and levitation...


maybe?

I don't doubt anything is possible

But OP... has a lifetime of study just in what's there

oh and OP

if your really on a quest...

Longevity can be enhanced very well too

It's along road ... enjoy it

So far, this website has the most of the WSJ article I've laid my hands on...It's about halfway down the page, (footnote number 7), and while it is just a couple paragraphs it does drag in the name of that same General Stubblebine that we see in those 9-11 inside job videos on youtube, interestingly enough...
John Ankerburg's website

Yeah, and mopus, I'm with you on curses, I'd type in some stories on that subject, maybe
But I have to run out the door and go to Costco, right now...