Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

I personally don't have a problem with abortion, some people do dumb stuff and screw up and can't afford to have a kid...etc. And I'm a semi religious person and believe in god, but abortion doesn't go against "my god". I don't agree with this healthcare plan at all but I don't think allowing abortions makes it worst than it already is.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Originally posted by Roadblockx
reply to post by Bratac

 

It isn't us that would get abortions done everyday or a couple times a month.

Sounds like you might need to learn a littttttlllllee bit more about pregnancy. No way a person could get more than one abortion a month much less everyday. Though, a person could use the day after pill everyday. But even so, a woman in no way could get pregnant multiple times per month.

Peace

Either you accept abortions, or you accept picking up the welfare bill for children who grow in 'sub-prime' lives : children unwanted, children poorly parented, chidlren who grow up in poverty, and children who may very well become the criminals of the future. 'Head In Sand' is not an option.

You can think that a foetus is an individual in it's own right : until it is viable to survive outside of the womb, a foetus is as useful as a human being in a coma, and therefore their continued existence relies upon others.

Originally posted by Roadblockx
reply to post by amazed

 

Flame on?? Now I am hopeful that there won't be any more flaming. It's your opinion. Great. I respect that and you did it without any name calling. Exactly my point. It can be done. Thank you.

You stated in your response that the man didn't use bc. I respond with, if he did and it broke, does that change your response?

Also, I checked around for bc methods for men (pills and shots) and most seem to be a couple more years away. The effectiveness of those still hasn't been completely proven so I'm not so sure I would begin using that as a good "alternative method" yet. Condoms see like the only way to go.

:-) just used to people "flaming" me on my opinion that this country needs universal health care.

Again, their are forms of birth control that men can either A. Use themselves or B. Make sure they have available for their partner to use.

Most men leave this up to women, and do not even think of buying and making sure that these other forms of birth control are used.

A just published study in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism (JCEM) reports that monthly injections of Testosterone produced a nearly 99% effective birth control rate in men between the ages of 25-40.

May 21, 2009

a new type of male birth control injection has shown very promising results in a large study of over 1,000 healthy, fertile men. In fact, in current clinical studies, the male contraceptive injection has been shown to be 99% effective

contraception.about.com...

A survey of men?

all 100 students surveyed said they would not use any form of male hormonal contraception.

ALL of the men surveyed said they would not use male hormonal contraception. I thought that deserved saying twice. BUT..... they expect women to.

Leaving it up to the women to use birth control. Men can buy over the counter and have available for themselves and their partner to use, contraceptive sponge, spermicide, condoms. But my statement stands, the majority of men expect women to be the ones who are responsible for birth control. But then complain if a pregnancy occurs, or complain they want to "choose" as to if a woman gets an abortion or not.

If your condom breaks? Why did you not also use a sponge? So yes, my statement still stands.

As far as I am concerned, if you REALLY don't want a pregnancy, being man or women, then make sure you use more than one form of birth control, or do NOT have sex. Otherwise your just "spewing".

Let me ask a simple question here of the men, how many of you have gone to your doctor or planned parenthood, and asked for male contraceptive? Any of you? Anyone? Thought not.

Go to your doctor and ask for male birth control alternatives instead of just asking for Viagra, which is covered under most medical insurance plans. Get educated. Educate your children be they young women or young men on the many forms of birth control available for BOTH of them.

A question for the women here. How many of you have had a partner that just refused to use a condom? I have. When my husband and I got together he expected me to be the one to use birth control as he hated condoms. So I made sure that I was on the pill, and sponges, and later a diaphragm and the pill. UNTIL, we were ready to have children. Making sure that you use more than one form of birth control works. My husband and I were married for eight years before we chose to become pregnant. We did not rely on just one form of birth control for protection. Or actually I did not rely on just one form of birth control. My husband relied on me to make sure we did not become pregnant until we were ready.

The hypocrisy? Once, after we had been together for about two years, I thought I had become pregnant. He asked "what are you going to do about it", I said "I would keep the child". He was upset over this and mentioned an abortion, but he sure did not want the responsibility of keeping us protected. Thankfully, as we were very young still, I was not pregnant, though I did have a cyst on an ovary which was causing the problem. So, he did not want the responsibility of assisting to keep us protected, but he wanted to "choose" what I did when I thought I was pregnant.

This "choice" that most men seem to want, is not to keep a child, but to choose to have an abortion even when the woman does not. This seems to be the true complaint of men when we get down to the heart of the issue. Not that they actually want to keep a child when their partner wants an abortion, but to choose an abortion when the woman wants to keep the child. Though yes, I understand that their are exceptions to this.

My opinion stands. This country needs universal health care, and we should provide abortions with health care. In reality? We should provide far more education to young people than we do, which includes all the options for birth control, and really educate the young. *passing out condoms ain't all it.*

I honestly feel that once we start educating young people for real, and not what we do now, then unwanted pregnancies will start to become fewer and fewer. Both young women and young men need to be truly educated about birth control, and both need instilled within them the responsibility for the protection against pregnancy and STD's. Not just the young women.

I have taught my daughter about the many forms of birth control, I as well educate my son about the many forms of birth control(he's younger, so not as much yet, a bit at a time as he gets older). I expect my son, as well as my daughter, to be responsible and protect themselves and their prospective future partners against pregnancy, and STD's.

Though again, my husband takes zero responsibility for teaching either of our children about birth control, leaving this 100% up to me. The typical male attitude. Never taking the opportunity to discuss with either of our children the need to protect themselves or their prospective future partners. Men, stand up and teach your son's the many ways of protecting themselves and their future partners against pregnancy and STD's.

And yes, I admit I am biased in my opinion towards men and their irresponsibility towards using birth control. I have three brothers, a husband, and several cousins who as well have left it up to the women in their lives to provide birth control, and then complain when a pregnancy or possible pregnancy occurs.

So, yes, we need universal health care, and yes, it should provide for abortions AND IMO education for our young. And yes, society should take a stand to educate our young about the many forms of birth control and teach them to be responsible and use these forms of birth control. THEN, we will have far fewer abortions than we do now. Choice AND responsibility along with Universal health care which includes abortions.

Harm None
Peace

You obviously haven't spoken to me.

I would, and do use contraception. and I would sprinkle the hormone male pill on my cornflakes every damn day if it were available.

Your experience is not universal of all males.

Originally posted by retroboy
You obviously haven't spoken to me.

I would, and do use contraception. and I would sprinkle the hormone male pill on my cornflakes every damn day if it were available.

Your experience is not universal of all males.

That is good, and as I said "most" and "there are exceptions". The male hormone contraceptive is a once a month shot. Not an every day at the same time pill, as it is for women who are on the pill. The male contraceptive seems to have far less side effects for men, compared to the hormone contraceptives that are available for women.

I felt it pretty disturbing that all the men in the survey said they would not use male contraceptive. It just shows a hypocrisy in a large portion of men, again not all men.

Peace

reply to post by Roadblockx


I don't see that has a problem, it should!

reply to post by amazed


I think the humor was in the exaggeration. Although, I could work out a possible scenario in which it could happen.... But no, I don't think for a second that person A could get preg everyday.

reply to post by amazed


Wow.... You wrote a lot and assumed even more. I appreciate the post and the thoughts you included in them. Let me do what I can to respond to as many as I can remember.

The one that stood out the most was the assumption none of the guys on here have ever bought bc. I understand that you are basing it on the guys that you know and from that I can't fault your "study group" but that isn't a good base in which to make an educated assumption from. I have bought bc and even female products for my wife.... Shivers.... If you aren't willing to buy them, you probably shouldn't be doing what they are used for, imho. I talked to my wife about it and she decided that she wanted to be on the pill for more then just the sexual reason. If there was a pill I could take, trust me, I would have. I hate being dependent on anyone for anything as I would rather take it so I didn't have to rely on her taking it. The guys I know mostly feel the same way but I'm not sure what line of work your group is in. My friends and I are in IT. Without sounding like an elitest, I think that the guys who prefer or assume the woman will handle the bc is proporinate to the amount of education, age and status in life. Those with less smarts, younger and don't have two nickles to rub together probably assume they don't have to deal with it. Again, I am just guessing based off of my study group here.

So please broaden your scope and realize not all guys fit the stereotypes you see in planed parenthood literature or movies. Some actually care where they stick their penis and what will happen 9 months from when the do...

reply to post by amazed


My understanding was that there was a pill form coming out shortly. You stated that there was a low or no impact on the hormones of a guy who is on the shot. I have to disagree. From what I have read, the side effects are related to the hormone interaction. Low libido (:dn, difficulty having an erection (:dn and something else terrifying. I will look it up and include the link.

I agree it isn't fair for the woman to bear the brunt of the responsibility of bc. Completely agree. For so long, it was the woman who was more responsible then the guy in the relationship either because of age (woman are a couple years more mature) or smarter. Now that guys are catching up or have caught up with the woman on intelligence, we are finding out that we can do more. Look at a typical husband now compared to his father and his grandfather. I am WAY more involved then my father was and light years ahead of my grandfather. So we are welcome to a bc that allows us to still feel skin to skin action (:wow but doesn't let the troops march into town.

Have a good weekend everyone. I will catch up with you Sunday evening or Monday morning. Please note that I will respond to posts once I get back on here. And for God's sake, FLAG THIS THREAD ALREADY!

Originally posted by retroboy
You obviously haven't spoken to me.

I would, and do use contraception. and I would sprinkle the hormone male pill on my cornflakes every damn day if it were available.

Your experience is not universal of all males.

Awesome! I completely and whole-heartidly agree. Except now my wife has her tubes tied so it doesn't matter anymore but I would have glady taken the pill instead of her. I hated how dependent everything was on her ability to remember to take it.....

Originally posted by Roadblockx
reply to post by amazed

 

Wow.... You wrote a lot and assumed even more. I appreciate the post and the thoughts you included in them. Let me do what I can to respond to as many as I can remember.

The one that stood out the most was the assumption none of the guys on here have ever bought bc. I understand that you are basing it on the guys that you know and from that I can't fault your "study group" but that isn't a good base in which to make an educated assumption from. I have bought bc and even female products for my wife.... Shivers.... If you aren't willing to buy them, you probably shouldn't be doing what they are used for, imho. I talked to my wife about it and she decided that she wanted to be on the pill for more then just the sexual reason. If there was a pill I could take, trust me, I would have. I hate being dependent on anyone for anything as I would rather take it so I didn't have to rely on her taking it. The guys I know mostly feel the same way but I'm not sure what line of work your group is in. My friends and I are in IT. Without sounding like an elitest, I think that the guys who prefer or assume the woman will handle the bc is proporinate to the amount of education, age and status in life. Those with less smarts, younger and don't have two nickles to rub together probably assume they don't have to deal with it. Again, I am just guessing based off of my study group here.

So please broaden your scope and realize not all guys fit the stereotypes you see in planed parenthood literature or movies. Some actually care where they stick their penis and what will happen 9 months from when the do...

You could easily have left that first sentence, which was a touch rude, out, and made your point even better.

Of course, I am pleased to hear from men who are willing to step up to the plate. It is a pleasant surprise from my personal experience.

My husband has a college education, and is also IT. Highly intelligent, and highly educated. Actually, his specialty is far more than just IT.

The men I talked about (my family members) have differing education levels, from college graduates to not having graduated from High School, to military.

So, I guess I would have to say, you assumed even more.

I don't really agree with the education in and of itself part. Especially as the survey I posted was in regards to university students, where 100 out of 100 men said they would NOT use hormonal birth control.

I think it is more about sexual education, sexual comfort, and maturity. Which is why I feel that we should educate our young adults far more than we do about sexuality and birth control options. Don't like abortions? Educate your children about all the different options of birth control, and you will be less likely to have young adults having abortions.

And no, I did not say that all men never buy birth control. I said "most". Though yes, I understand that many will buy condoms, but they do not generally, without the urging of their partner, buy other forms of birth control. Nor are the majority willing to pop into planned parenthood and discuss birth control options with a physician. Unless it is with the urging of their partner, and then the discussion will generally be about birth control options for the woman.

Thankfully, as you stated, more options are becoming available for men. I see this as men (and society in general) maturing and becoming aware of mutual responsibility towards birth control, and this not just being the responsibility of women.

I feel that when we have more birth control options available for both sexes, and both sexes are educated about birth control, and we move towards removing the emotional stigma of talking to our young adults about birth control, then the need for abortions will decline. When both men and women are held to the same standards of being responsible for birth control, we will find that we have less unwanted pregnancies, and therefore we will have less abortions taking place.

Anyway, I sincerely do not want to derail this thread. To me, the link with universal health care, and abortions, and birth control education, is an important one. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.

And once more, I said "most men" and not "all" men, which two posters have claimed I said. I did not say "all" men. Please quote me otherwise.

Harm None
Peace

Well, here's where I upset people on both sides of the abortion issue, the feminists, and men in general.

I oppose abortion. Not on religious grounds, not even on 'moral' or 'ethical' grounds in the traditional sense. Abortion, where it isn't medically absolutely necessary, is simply the abdication of parental responsibility by the woman through the death of her, as yet unborn, child. It can be done on a decision as simple as a whim, although some women put more thought into it than that. Men are not afforded the legal right to abdicate parental responsiblity if he so wishes. In that way it is legally inequitable. A 'right' that women have that men do not.

No, don't give me any of that old 'well, if he wants to carry the child for nine months' stupidity. Or the old 'If he doesn't want to be held responsible then he can keep his penis in his pants' idiocy. Both parties have the choice to not have sex, both parties have the choice to use birth control, both parties enter into it knowing the risk of pregnacy. No, don't use the 'rape' excuse, it's not an issue here.

Untill men are afforded the right to terminate parental responsibility through as simple an action as issuing a written declaration without question within the same period after notification of fatherhood that a woman has in making the decision to have an abortion, I will oppose abortion. Women can keep their legs closed just as easily as a man can keep his penis in his pants. It's called responsiblity, and untill both men and women are held to the same level of responsibility either way, I will oppose abortion.

reply to post by Roadblockx

lol thanks for the reply and the compliment. i dont know productive of a citizen i have really been but ya i hard a really hard time with it. dident have contact with my other again till i was 22 (3 yrs ago) i grew up in the cps system wich is a horrific legalized slavery in my oppion. i wish we had a thread on cps i could tell u all stories about stuff that happened to myself and my sibling. even other kids while i was in their "so called" safe placements. i had to grow up without a family and alone. raised by the streets and the courts. thats way off topic. but i personally hate abortion but like is aid earlier i cant force others to believe that way. im also pro choice. they have to face allah (god) in the end.


salaam

reply to post by Roadblockx


That's called a "Texas Sharpshooter fallacy". I know you have an agenda. That doesn't mean that your painting the target over your theoretical bullethole is making it true. Your circular logic has you caught in a rationale crayfish trap. You can't figure out how to get out of it, because you can't accept that the hole in your logic is what keeps you trapped. It doesn't effect me. You just punish yourself. I'm not worried about losing face in front of strangers on a message board.

Originally posted by thoughtplacebo
reply to post by Roadblockx

 

That's called a "Texas Sharpshooter fallacy". I know you have an agenda. That doesn't mean that your painting the target over your theoretical bullethole is making it true. Your circular logic has you caught in a rationale crayfish trap. You can't figure out how to get out of it, because you can't accept that the hole in your logic is what keeps you trapped. It doesn't effect me. You just punish yourself. I'm not worried about losing face in front of strangers on a message board.

Circular logic, crayfish trap, texas sharpshooter fallacy, painting?? Ok. All over the place there. I will just leave that alone.

Originally posted by jmacbeth
reply to post by Roadblockx

 

lol thanks for the reply and the compliment. i dont know productive of a citizen i have really been but ya i hard a really hard time with it. dident have contact with my other again till i was 22 (3 yrs ago) i grew up in the cps system wich is a horrific legalized slavery in my oppion. i wish we had a thread on cps i could tell u all stories about stuff that happened to myself and my sibling. even other kids while i was in their "so called" safe placements. i had to grow up without a family and alone. raised by the streets and the courts. thats way off topic. but i personally hate abortion but like is aid earlier i cant force others to believe that way. im also pro choice. they have to face allah (god) in the end.


salaam

I can't thank you enough for your post and honesty. The longer this thread stays active, the more we all hear about those that have been directly affected by abortion or fostercare. It is only through these posts that we can really begin to understand what it is like. Thank you. Please flag the thread to make sure it stays active.

reply to post by amazed


Great post. I never intended to make an assumption and I'm not sure where I did but I apologize. I wanted to make sure that I didn't as I wasn't sure who you used in your "study group".

If my "hypothisis" regarding the relation between salary, education and stature in life and men wanting to participate in bc was wrong, well, it wouldn't be the first time. Hopefully more posters will contribute to this theory.

I will try to respond to the rest of your reply as soon as I can.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Insurable murder?
wow!

See i'm very pro-choice, but abortion has nothing to do with pro-choice

That whole argument that it's a woman's body and she could do what she wants with it is BS. She CAN do whatever she wants to her body, sure, but that baby inside of her is NOT her body, it's another life.

Actually, it IS a part of her body. It's made from components of her body. Where do you think the stuff the baby is made of comes from? Space? It comes from the food she eats and every cell in its body is formed by the mother's body. Take away the mother, and there is no baby. That's not to say that terminating a barely conscious, subsentient fetus isn't messed up. It's terrible and it's not at all pleasant for the mother. I won't comment on any of the other stuff, like gay adoption, etc. There have been no conclusive tests or trials of this one way or the other so the most intelligent thing for me to do is not to comment on that and leave baseless opinions to the witless, but I do know a thing or two about the human life cycle.

If you're talking about a baby's body, 99.5% of it is its mother's and the other half of one percent is its father's DNA. If it's the baby's soul you're referring to then no, that is not a part of its mother's body. However, the soul required a fully formed or nearly formed body to sustain it. As a collection of cells or a zygote, it's pretty silly to think a soul could do anything with that. That'd be like a lump of flesh not unlike a tumor had a soul, or algae. What about other animals? Sure, you get mad about human fetuses, but if it was a chicken, you'd dump it in a pan and eat it, wouldn't you? You don't have time to worry about that because you're too busy ripping out the trees in your backyard to make room for your sundeck, right? Or what about once they're alive? Then they're not your problem, right? Would you help to support a child once it was born if it wasn't your own if it spared the fetus or zygote stage an abortion? Would you even want to meet that child? Would you give a damn if that child was drafted into the military and killed in another illegal preemptive war? Would you weep for that human's life if it died before it time, outside the womb? I bet you wouldn't.

But you want to give it a chance to live, right? Just to see whether or not it'll be a prodigy or the messiah or even if it'll figure out how to survive without the proper support from its unprepared would-be parents? What if that baby wasn't a christian or a conservative? Would you still want it to live? Given the circumstance of its forced birth, it probably wouldn't grow up to share any of your beliefs. Would you still care? What if it grew up to be an abortion doctor? Would you want to kill it then? I know I'm being silly, but hey, this whole issue is pretty silly. Personally, I think we all take ourselves a little too seriously. If nothing else, would you show your love for a child born into this world against its parents will, perhaps even in the absence of love from anyone in its life? Would you adopt a child like that? You should not ask of others what you, yourself, would not do.

Incidentally, you don't sound very pro-choice at all. Are you sure that you even know what it means to be pro-choice?

Please, somebody, humor me.


[edit on 9-8-2009 by Syrus Magistus]