Dark forces at work in the Crypto world: The "Lost Evidence".

A recent question about a mokele-mbembe video brought forth a lot of digging and even more questions - including a supposed lost "Thunder Bird" picture.

The more you dig into mysteries like these the more it would appear that there are a lot of "lost evidence" in the Cryptozoology world. Animal Planet even took the idea and made a TV series about it: Lost Tapes.

Examples of "Lost Evidence"

1. The Mokele-Mbembe video which supposedly shows the cryptid in the water. The video was debunked at some point when "experts" said that it's clear that it's two local fishermen on a boat. (Others say it's clearly an elephant swimming.) The video is unavailable for review. Yet many claim to have seen it.

2. The Thunderbird Photograph:

There are scores of people who say they saw a photograph of a thunderbird nailed up to a barn door with a line of men standing in front of it to give it scale. That picture has never been found although all describe the same picture.

The photograph is unavailable for review. Yet many claim to have seen it.

3. Steve Irwin's Tasmanian Tiger footage.

After Steve Irwin was killed by a stringray, a strange rumor circulated that he might have captured an elusive, supposedly extinct Thylacine on videotape during the making of the mentioned episode. But, for whatever reason, the blurry footage was never broadcast. Or was it?
Source

While critics say Steve Irwin never looked for the Thylacine, many say they have seen an episode of Crocodile hunter (or at least a trailer) showing the a hunt for the Tasmanian Tiger. The footage is unavailable.

There are many more examples (and I welcome members to post rumours of "lost evidence").

Time Travel

An interesting (yet far-out) theory of a Cryptomundo reader calling herself (himself?) Kim reads like this:

I suspect that someone with the ability to go back in time stopped the photo from being taken. After that occurred the photo disapeared from all the books and magazines it was ever in.
I think this happened in the early 1990’s. Sounds crazy I know, but I also know I had the photo in a book prior to 1996.
Cryptomundo

Naturally when we approach the time travel theory we hit a barrage of paradoxes.

If a person stopped footage from becoming public by time travelling, then people simply won't remember the footage existing. You cannot remove something from a time-line and not remove the memory of it, right?

The Matrix

We can bend the time travelling theory a bit and take the Matrix approach where we all live in a Cyberworld. In the movie The Matrix "unexplained phenomena" such as UFOs are described as viruses or "rogue AI". It would be easy for the programmer of the Matrix to remove said "cryptozoological evidence" from the Matrix.

But such a theory is naturally a bit farfetched and just about impossible to prove.

Confabulation and False Memories

Confabulation is the formation of false memories, perceptions, or beliefs about the self or the environment as a result of neurological or psychological dysfunction. When it is a matter of memory, confabulation is the confusion of imagination with memory, or the confused application of true memories. Confabulations are difficult to differentiate from delusions and from lying.
Wiki

So basically the theory suggests that these rumours of evidence are fictional memories?

According to the egg-heads confabulation or false memories can be organic or psychological of origin.

1. Organic Causes

Berlyne (1972) defined confabulation as "...a falsification of memory occurring in clear consciousness in association with an organically derived amnesia." He distinguished between:

- "momentary" (or "provoked") confabulations – fleeting, and invariably provoked by questions probing the subject's memory, sometimes consisting of "real" memories displaced in their temporal context.
- "fantastic" (or "spontaneous") confabulations – characterised by the spontaneous outpouring of irrelevant associations, sometimes bizarre ideas, which may be held with firm conviction.

Patients who have suffered brain damage or lesions, especially to the prefrontal cortical regions, may have confabulation of memories as a symptom.
Wiki

2. Psychological causes

Bartlett's studies of remembering are arguably the first concerted attempt to look at the memory-illusion phenomena. In one experiment, he asked a group of students to read an Indian folktale and then recall its details at various time intervals. As well as errors of omission, interestingly he found numerous errors of commission whereby participants had adapted or added to the story to make it more rational or consistent.
...
Theorists such as Bransford and Franks noted the significance of personal beliefs and desires, or more technically scripts and schemas, in memory retrieval.
...
False memory effects are usually (but not always) explained as a reliance on gist traces in a situation when verbatim traces are needed. Because of this people may mistakenly recall a memory that only goes along with a vague gist of what happened, rather than the exact course of events. Three reasons are proposed: First, there is thought to be a general bias towards the use of gist traces in cognition due to their resource efficiency, and people will tend to use gist traces when they seem sufficient. Second, verbatim traces are said to be inherently less stable than gist traces, and decay faster. Third, in the process of forgetting, memories fragment and gist and verbatim traces can become independent.
Wiki

In other words psychology suggests that many of the "cryptozoologists" (or at least people interested in Cryptozoology) remember the said photographs or videos because they want it to be real?

So according to this theory a person vaguely remembers a video clip about a werewolf he saw as a child (keep in mind that theoretically speaking this is a false memory and the footage doesn't exist). He wants to "confirm" the memory by reviewing the video clip and posts on an Internet forum asking about the footage. A person comes along and recall something similar, and confirms that he has also seen the footage. A third person comes along and recalls the footage to be from an Episode of a 1986 TV series "How Strange is that!". (Let's say there was an episode about werewolves but it never showed the "imagined" footage.) And every time a person comes along and adds more detail to the memory of the footage that doesn't exist...? And so "lost evidence" is created by a string of false memories. The hunt for the footage continues but is never found because the evidence simply doesn't exist.

Is that really possible? Can we really have such little faith in our memories?

I have a similar situation. In the late 80’s there was a supposed UFO crash in the Kalahari, South Africa. A local magazine did a story on the crash and included a photograph of the alien. I clearly recall the article and have spoken of it here on ATS. Yet, after much digging I have been unable to produce the article from the magazine... Did I create a memory because I want to believe the article/aliens & UFOs are real? There is no doubt in my mind that the article is real - but can I really trust my memory if I am unable to confirm it?

How do you confirm a memory? By providing proof, right? And we're back at square one.

Hoaxes

Then there is the much-hated, but very obvious answer. Claims of "lost evidence" are lies. People simply claim to have seen a photograph or a video because they want the attention, they want to be part of a discussion or they are spiteful. Can it be that all these people claiming to have seen the "lost evidence" are lying?

It surely would be simplest answer. But for most cryptozoologists this would be a sad blow, as we would hate this to be the case.

Reasons

Let's say someone is wilfully trying to hide evidence of crypto beasts. The big question would be "why?!".

When we look the UFO field for instance where there is arguably proof of Government cover-ups we can understand why. If life outside our world were a reality it would have an undeniable impact on our lives. But if say Bigfoot existed - so what? It's just another animal. New animal species are discovered on a weekly basis and announced to the world with great excitement. Why would a giant animal in Loch Ness or an existing pack (streak?) of Tasmanian Tigers be any different than the re-discovery of the Borneo Rhino?

Unless there are more to Crypto’s than we think? Or we are making more of them than is necessary? Or they simply don't exist?

Conclusion

As is typical with subjects such as these there are now more questions than answers. Perhaps this would encourage people to do more investigation. Produce the evidence to prove that their memories CAN be trusted. Prove that they are NOT liars.

Any more theories? Any more examples of "lost evidence"?

Edit: Formatting.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by Gemwolf]

reply to post by Gemwolf


S & F
Confabulation and False Memories

Seems plausible.

Although I have to admit. I think I saw the Lost Thunderbird one online a LOOOONG time ago back in the NETs early days.

These aint it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/46eba15ac38c.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0896836af68a.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is why I trust my memory.

I know I went to the store a lot of times before. I even remember that I almost always chat a bit with the check out person.

I also remember where my toilet is when I need it.

See...memory is very trust worthy.

At least mine is for my own purposes.

I actually laughed at the person who said memory is not reliable. I agree, I would not trust them either, but i sure trust me!

BTW - Id love to see the photo of the Thunderbird.
Never heard of that before, it sounds plausible but I need the photo as much as you do.

Man that would make an awesome desktop background photo.

If you ever locate the pic please post it in here so that extremely curious people such as myself will find it. You will win major rep +

reply to post by SLAYER69


Um, Holy crap dude.

A Pterodactyl?

Um....Is that fake or what?

reply to post by muzzleflash




The civil war ones have to be hoaxes IMO.

Not too many older and fat soldiers during the civil war.
Looks more like reenactment actors.

The one on the left with the smaller bird looks possibly real.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

I remember the photo almost to the point that if I had a way to "plug in" I could print it.
The photo I saw, was a photo of a news page from the area where the pilot took the photo.
I am fairly certain it was Alaska....
That may be the correct path to try and find the pic of the bird, it was quite incredible, and if I remember correctly in was roughly the same size as the sesna 110 plane he was flying.
I will start searching there and will post any findings thanks for bringing this up. I would have forgotten it forever if not for you.
I spell bad

[edit on 5-8-2009 by Doc Holiday]

reply to post by SLAYER69


The Pterodactyl photo at the top, is just simply amazing.

I do not have access to the original, so I have to purely go from my gut instinct here.

It does look authentic for 1860-65 era. The quality matches the apparent age very nicely.

The military garb of the soldiers is exactly what the Union soldiers wore, as far as I can tell.

The corpse of the Pterodactyl matches skeletons I have seen perfectly, however this appears to be a freshly dead specimen.

Did they leave it there? Eat it? Take it to a local city? Does anyone know what happened to it?

Dinosaur bones had been discovered prior to this event, but it could be possible that the soldiers in the photo had never heard of such a thing, and so they may have had no clue as to what they discovered. (Killed?)

The way the one guy has his foot on it's beak, and the condition of the corpse leads me to think they actually killed it.

I really do not think it was a wood carving, although it is not impossible, just unlikely because of the uncanny resemblance to skeletons that we are all accustomed to in our modern society. Back then I doubt they could have created one so anatomically correct.

reply to post by Gemwolf


I actually have a serious problem with "lost memories" every time I have a seizure that is pretty bad. There are times I even go comatose for days on end! BUT a neurologist taught me something that I have been using for a few years now that helps keep you from forgetting anything you want to remember. It goes like this...

If it is something you are reading or learning etc. read it once then put it down think and say a word you use in everyday speech. Then read it again occasionally saying the word again while reading/learning/looking here and there. Now when you say or hear that word you commonly use it will reinforce the memory. It also works with scents very well also. Just find one that is common to where you live etc and instead of saying the word smell the scent!
Trust me it works great! I have even been able to recover some of my memory from when I got severely ill last summer. This because I was using one of my catch words a lot at the time. So I naturally brought the " lost memories" back to the forefront of my thought. It wasn't something made up either my mom had pictures as proof.....

Most "Civil War" pterodactyl photographs are said to be hoaxes.

More

Interesting thread. I saw the The Mokele-Mbembe video on one of the DSTV channels fairly recently (Discovery, NatGeo can't remember which). It was a documentary on the search for "Nessie"-like creatures around the world.

Having seen Elephants crossing rivers, with their trunks raised high it looked like an elephant to me as well.

reply to post by Gemwolf



The Triceratops photo looks totally fake. (Spliced straight out of that scene in Jurassic Park?? lol)

The middle Pterodactyl photo looks totally real, I just cannot see any fakery in it. The explanation that it is " Verdict: photoshopping" just sounds like blowing it off without even analyzing it.

The third photo (2nd bird), looks legitimate but the coloring seems off for a the civil war era, and seems quite modern but just edited to look more authentic. I find a lot of things wrong with that one too.

So really that 2nd photo listed the link you gave, or the top photo on slayers post, still seems totally genuine to me. I just cannot find anything wrong with it.

There is one odd thing about it though. That is the outer wings, they seem to be reflective or of a odd coloration. I say this because I cannot see the soldiers feet behind them.

Also note that the shadowing is totally perfect. That is why I think if it is a fake, it is not photoshopped at all. It would have to be a wood carving I think, because that fits the size/coloration very well. That carving would take a lot of skill and time though.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by muzzleflash]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by muzzleflash]

nice find .

I may point out again , that the Evolutionists normaly rush in and debunk and or ruin evidence before any one gets a chanse to examine it.

They do that alot, like there is alot of people in asia claiming that they see this cave men over there, but Science say no, and that they saw something else...

The reason they dont find any , is that the jungle is close to non-accesable as it is so dense it is impossible to travel there almost.

They hardly manages to capture pandas who dont move, but the terrain makes it difficult...

Originally posted by muzzleflash
...
So really that 2nd photo listed the link you gave, or the top photo on slayers post, still seems totally genuine to me. I just cannot find anything wrong with it.
...

I agree that a website claiming it's fake without much explanation isn't very satisfying.

This is the supposed back-story of the photograph and also the real story. (And also links to the "missing pterodactyl barn photograph".)
Here is an ATS discussion about that image.
Here is an alternative debunking.


Hope that's more satisfying.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
but Science say no

Science did not say no.

Just some foolish scientists who did not investigate the matter fully, most likely.

Do not let bad scientists give science a bad name.

Science just means "Knowledge" in Latin.

i love the crypto field. so many things yet undiscovered.

i believe i saw the video regarded as the steve irwin find. i specifically remember thinking to myself yup, thats a tasmanian tiger.
although, i cannot recall any audio being present.... kinda weird


1996 is a very sketchy year (i had many, many more) for me as i was a pro skateboarder and it was my job to fall really, really hard all day long (for a total of over 16 years). my body feels like a pile of crypto-crap lol.


sorry, its late and i tend to ramble when i'm tired.

cheers,
AA

cmon dudes a photo is a photo, at the end of all this there is still no way of telling what is real and what isnt


although thats a very interesting theory about lost memories and stuff

/thread

Originally posted by awakeningaussie
cmon dudes a photo is a photo, at the end of all this there is still no way of telling what is real and what isnt
...

Of course there's a way to tell if something is not real. Many photographs have been debunked as fake. BUT if a photograph (or video) cannot be debunked as fake then obviously it opens up the doors for said content of the media to be real.

If I person came to you and said “I saw Mothman”, would you have any reason to believe him or believe that Mothman is real? But if a person provides you with a picture of “Mothman”, and no expert can prove that it’s a faked photograph... Does this mean that a “Mothman” is real? Not necessarily. But now you have more reason to open your mind to the idea.

A picture is worth a thousand words after all.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ChemBreather
but Science say no

Science did not say no.

Just some foolish scientists who did not investigate the matter fully, most likely.

Do not let bad scientists give science a bad name.

Science just means "Knowledge" in Latin.

I know, it is just that people in general accept the Experts explainations blindly. And if some sort of evidence were to arise proving something else, it has 5000 skull&bones 'experts on it, getting peer reviwed and debunked..

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
I remember the photo almost to the point that if I had a way to "plug in" I could print it.
The photo I saw, was a photo of a news page from the area where the pilot took the photo.
I am fairly certain it was Alaska....
That may be the correct path to try and find the pic of the bird, it was quite incredible, and if I remember correctly in was roughly the same size as the sesna 110 plane he was flying.
I will start searching there and will post any findings thanks for bringing this up. I would have forgotten it forever if not for you.
I spell bad

[edit on 5-8-2009 by Doc Holiday]

while rereading this thread i noticed that i must have miss this post. i was watching something on one of the discovery network channels one night. a commercial caught my attention with talk of giant birds of some type that might still be living. i believe it was in the amazon region. they showed a still image of a absolutely HUGH solid black bird perched high in a tree. i remember thinking OMG thats a fake pic if i had ever seen one. then i realized the pic was too old to be "photoshopped (a favorite pastime for the ats oldtimers some truther once said lol)" the photo reminded me of 70's style poloroid cameras and the color was tad washed from age.......

oddly enough, once again i can put no audio with the image.

weird.

EDIT- i need to add this was awhile ago....several years maybe more. i cant remember enough about it to estimate when accurately.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]

Originally posted by awakeningaussie
cmon dudes a photo is a photo, at the end of all this there is still no way of telling what is real and what isnt


although thats a very interesting theory about lost memories and stuff

/thread

alot of people would rather scream fake. i have tried it and it's pretty easy. even if they knew it to be absolute they would rather deny it then shift their worldview to allow the reality of whatever they are scared of.


just food for thought

cheers,
AA

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]