Cast Out of Heaven

Reply to post by Toughiv

Assuming there is no creator? Sure I can agree to ur statement.

Do I agree there is no creator? Nope, sure don't.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by IDK88

And to that I say...why would God read his own words?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by xoxo stacie


Hear hear Stacie

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I didnt ask you to agree there was no creator. I was simply saying, either there is a creator and we have an inherent dualistic being, or we have natural man who is taught to be dualist.

I personally believe the latter is most probable.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


He wouldn't, but his Son the Natural Born King might. Like I said it has happened before.

Tamerlane became a Muslim, which means he read the Koran. Charlemagne was a Catholic and Proterctor of Rome and Jesus taught the Jewish Law from what I can gather from sources.

Why would God read the Bible, why indeed?

Revelations says that the Dragon positioned itself to devour the child the moment of its birth...The Dragon AKA the midwife, Lilith perhaps, performing her functions, stole the light and raised him as her son, which included instructing him in her religion. A phenomenon which is remembered in the story with Moses being raised by Pharoah's daughter, instead of his own mother and with Sargon being raised in a Sumerian household.

Revelations is prophecy in the sense that the past was known, thus the future is known...this is what must happen...sometimes the Dragon and his Angels lose their place in Heaven sometimes Michael and his Angels lose their place...the Book of Revelations is somewhat obscure on this point, which can be easily seen when the passage is re-read. Therein lies one of the mysteries concerning the nature of the Bible...it permits two nearly identical, but opposed, outcomes at all times. Good and Evil.

The real war is a battle to control this outcome, as whichever side actually wins the side that loses is always the evil one.



[edit on 5-8-2009 by IDK88]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by IDK88]

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by Toughiv

 

With joy..

The only reason I can half-heartedly agree with the statement the bible is a trap is simply because it has had acontrolling effect over the masses for so many years. Other than that, I have nothing.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Control to what end? Look at the world around us, War, Disease, Famine are all used, started and maintained by governments to employ people, keep money flowing and to keep people dying.

Dont believe me? Start reading some more about New World Order.

------------------------------------------
Things to think about:

1) The biggest killing disease on this earth is Tuberculosis (cant remember how to spell it). Killing approx 2-3 million per year. The price of a vaccination being just 12p / 25 c etc...

Surely, if the governing bodies of the world WANTED to stop these people from dying they could! ? Did the US not put $500 BILLION into the banking sector?

2) Eco-friendly etc.

Look up "air-scrubbers" they actually filter out CO2 from the atmosphere!!! Some manage 1 TONNE PER DAY!!! So tell me, do we actually have a problem or are we being told we have a problem?

3) War on Terrorism

This is the biggest loada bull i have ever heard. Look at all these new laws brought in to "protect our civil liberties", or in other words turn our societies into Big Brother States!!

War employs approx 1/3 of the worlds employable population. You have to remember it isnt just the soldiers we are talking about, or the intelligence services, but also the people who feed them, make them clothes, prosthetic limbs, psychological treatment, drugs, weapons development, electrics for camps ETC!!!

WAR IS NECESSARY FOR OUR SOCIETY WITHOUT IT 1/3 OF THE WORLD's EMPLOYABLE POPULATION WOULD BE UNEMPLOYED = ANARCHY

So, back to the point, war on "terrorism" (watch fahrenheit 9/11). So wait, why did we go to war with IRAQ? Because we had reason to believe Saddam had "weapons of mass destruction", yet....we have Satellite Imagery that North Korea are transporting War Heads. I dont see anybody going to tell them to stop?

This war on terrorism will never end and that is why it is started. All bills/legislations will be brought in on the "thin end of the wedge" argument. For example, ( this is an exaggeration of identity cards) if we put a chip into every child born from now on, saying their location, who they hang around with etc. We can make sure they do not become a target for elitist groups etc. If you have nothing to hide, if you arent doing anything wrong, then there should be no reason to deny this. HOWEVER, when EVERYBODY has this so called chip, what then? You have no free will, only free will within a limited system. You yourself will no longer rule your government, you will be ruled by it.

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That was a post i made anonymously before I joined ATS. As you can see i was a *tad* fanatical about the new info Id found, but the points nevertheless are still valid.

Bringing what is said above to topic. Look up the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse

Cheers!

Brad

Originally posted by IDK88
reply to post by Toughiv

 

Perhaps you have fallen, I have not...

We, all humanity, are fallen. Nevermoreso than with those who believe themselves not.

Thank all of you for your posts and the great ideas about the topic you have brought to this thread, the response is much more than I could have hoped for and I hope you continue with your debates, as they are as much entertaining as they are informative.

After I get a chance to soak them in a bit more I'll post about what I think.

I watched Moon Rising for the first time yesterday and this topic just crossed my mind when wondering about why all the secrecy surrounds the moon and other cellestial objects in our Solar system. Apparently the answers to some of the most profound questions in the quest for our true beginnings truely do lye in what has been called "The Final Frontier"

I also hope that I am able to live long enough to hear the real truth that we all deserve to know.

Individually we are much too smart to be lied to and we know there is more. We are so smart, in fact, that we can do anything - either collectively or singularly - that we can think of, but we can't continued to be lied to about the most important part of our history.

I hope that collectively we will push our opinions to the point where they are so LOUD that they can no longer be ignored.

reply to post by teapot


Well, I suppose that's something for you to be optimistic about in your fallen condition; to know that I am even farther fallen than you who know and accept that you are fallen.

On a more serious note...belief in being fallen could be part of a trap. If you are fallen, then what's the point of hoping to achieve or receive redemption?

I personally believe that there are different conditions of fallen...

1. The condition that this world is and it's not what it should be.
2. The condition that this world is and what it will forever be; permanent and comprehensive separation from the light of God.

I mentioned it earlier...I think this world is what David would call the Valley of the Shadow of Death. Yes, it is fallen but its not irredemeable.

The other condition, the place of utter darkness is the Pit. This world is not under any condition that place. However, their seems to be many who are there already and would love to pull us into that place.

From here it is possible, in my opinion likely, that we can get atop the mountain and see what was actually intended. But the path is full of voices that will tell you that no such condition exists despite many references to it in literature and oral tradition.

You see...I am insane. I believe and accept that I did receive redemption...its almost as if the cosmos insisted upon me receiving this gift, for when it was my time to see the truth of this world, it left nothing to chance that I would make the correct decision.

But that's a whole different discussion, as I've been told many times on ATS that I am fallen and without hope.





[edit on 5-8-2009 by IDK88]

reply to post by esteay812


Dear esteay812
From esteay812

“Revelation 12:9

"So the great Dragon was cast out, That serpent of old, called The Devil and Satan, who deceives The whole world; he was cast to The Earth, and his angels were Cast out with him."

Who wrote that??

What are his credentials???

Why would we give any credence to this statement just because it was written 2500 years ago and the original idea come from the Sumerians which is a lot older??

As with all things this was latter manipulated to suit the purpose at the time and Satan at the time was not a fallen Angle at all but working on behalf of GOD.

Just because something is old doesn’t make it true.

reply to post by MAC269


I understand your point, but it has two sides. Just because it was written 2,000yrs ago doesn't mean it's not true. Just because you don't know the author or his background doesn't mean it's not true.

I am just asking about what is stated in the most revered book in the world. I know that just because a lot of people believe it or read it doesn't make it true, but it certainly doesn't make it false or unworthy of discussion.

Just because it is written 2,000yrs ago doesn't mean we should ignore it.

The Pyramids were built a long time ago and we don't know who or how exactly they were built. Should we ignore them as well?

reply to post by esteay812


The original was written a long time ago. What we have today, remains to be verified as the original. As stacie and myself have said, what we have today is not the original. The original was supposed to be inspired by God. I see no difference between the Bible and a Self Help Book.

satan helped us escape from the prison called eden..he taught us how to feed and clothe ourselves.... god didnt like the thought of his animals thinking for themselves and in a rage through us and satan out.... so i ask you why the hell do we try to get back into the eden prison.... seams to me satan should be the good guy and god the jailer the bad guy.....

reply to post by fatdad


Satanist? (Thats a very *different* way of looking at it) When did the Garden of Eden become a jail? Where is that premise from? Secondly, another premise is that God doesnt like "his" creatures thinking for themselves, yet he gave us freewill :S

So far I see one flaw and one potential flaw in your argument. (Thumbs up)

reply to post by fatdad


WHat you are stating would be accurate if you argument is based on the Sumerian texts about Enki and Enlil. Though you must draw lines from those stories to the Biblical stories to see the similarities.

In many cases arguments have been made that the bible is made up of stories that have been retold since the first known civilization.

what im saying is that maybe satan took pity on us dumb humans and gave us the chance to experience life to the full..
a chance to feed \ clothe house ourselves..to have children .. to wonder beyond the boundaries that god gave us...
god seen that adam and eve had bettered themselves with knowledge and seen that they could survive without god ..
i think satan should be stripped of all the demon\evil garbage that has been brainwashed into mankind and be praised for giving us the freedom to have knowledge that was forbidden by god.....

eden was a jail -a very pretty jail with pretty birds and loads of things to eat -but still a jail- a place where you where told what to do and what not to do....


p.s. why would god create the tree of knowledge and satan , then place them in the garden to temp adam and eve ?..
sounds to me like a sick game only a dictator would come up with....



[edit on 6-8-2009 by fatdad]

reply to post by fatdad


I read somewhere, something about this. It said that the god in the bible is actually Satan and, the one we call Satan is the one true god, the one that gave us free will and so on. That would fit in with "the bible is a trap" statement.
Satan's greatest trick was, making man believe he was the one true god and the way things look in this world, it seems most fallow the wrong god, the god of the bible. But to each there own, believe what you want.
That's not to say those are my beliefs just something I came across. Also, isn't Satan the bringer of light and knowledge?

PEACE!!!

reply to post by esteay812


Dear esteay812

Revelation was written by John on Patmos a Greek island.

He said that heard the word of GOD through one of his angles.

Every one including John where very concerned with the Roman occupation at the time and many references in the work refer to them.

The reason I am pointing out that this is very old is because for that very reason most do not understand the realty of that time and place.

What do you think would happen it someone came along and wrote this today??? Or indeed wrote anything saying that an angle told him to write it??

For a start the RC Church would send a squad of high ranking GOD bothers to investigate. With the intent to discredit as they don’t want there story altered. They have worked very hard to get it the way they have and they don’t want some pipskeeque coming along to upset the apple cart. The only reason that Revelation is in the bible at all is because it suited the Roman Church at the time which was 325AD under Constantine.

The authorities would have him in a sike ward at the first sign of public insurrection.

As you very rightly say there is no harm in discussing it but for goodness sake get it in context.

I prefer to think that this world is a "vale of soulmaking".

This world, when you think about it, is an expression of God's love on the highest level.

The tree he supposedly put in the garden to test mankind, yet he is supposed to be omniscient. He tells us not to eat from it (reverse psychology) then creates Lucifer who he should know is going to cause a rebellion and then tempt us to eat what he specifically told us not to.

That paragraph above may seem sinister. But think of it like this. If you had nobody to tempt adam and eve to eat the apple...they wouldnt have. Simply because God told them not to. Yet he wants us to have free will, so creates lucifer, well knowning he is going to rebel, so that he can be that tempter, and ultimately give us true freedom of choice by balancing out God's command not to do something.

We cannot BLAME God for suffering because, ultimately, we still did choose to eat the apple. Lucifer didnt MAKE us eat it, he tempted and we gave in.

Ultimately this is the best way I can put it. Imagine you are a parent. You have just boilt a kettle. Your child goes to touch the kettle and you tell them not to. Firstly, we have to assess why they went to touch the kettle, because of desire. They desire to gain knowledge of what the puzzling object that was just steaming and making noise was. We told them, as parents not to, because ultimately we KNEW it wasnt good for them. However, because we have *ultimate/highest* love for them, we do not want to inhibit their own free will. Therefore, we allow them to touch the kettle, while keeping a watchful eye to make sure situations dont go from bad to worse. And yes, they will burn themselves, but from that they will know what you were trying to teach them all along, not to touch the kettle because it is bad for them, but this time around, they will know it for themselves and therefore not have that desire.

We were made in God's image yes, but we are here to grow to his likeness.

Well, thats my own personal philosophy (the kettle bit). Id love to hear what y'all think of it

Cheers!

Brad

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Toughiv]

reply to post by IDK88


We are all fallen creatures....we all have sinful rebellious natures...you are one of the many,

I am one of the many...Hence the reason for the good news...we all need a saviour, we all do..you and me included