Photo - Obama's Kenyan Birth Certificate (political fraud)

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yeah, "President Obama was born in Hawaii and is a Natural Born Citizen" is hardly a conspiracy theory.

It most certainly is!

First, there is a fair amount of vagueness associated with the ability for anyone to obtain birth credentials in Hawaii at that time to sow sufficient seeds of doubt. I'm not saying I believe those particular avenues, only that enough doubt exists to fuel skepticism.

Vagueness? The law permitting non-residents to apply for a Hawaiin COB was passed in 1984. I have read through all surrounding legislation and not been able to find anything resembling a grandfather clause that would have allowed President Obama to obtain one retro-actively.

Also the Hawaiin Department of Health Spokesperson Janice Okubo:
washingtonindependent.com...
“It’s crazy,” said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. “I don’t think anything is ever going to satisfy them.”

Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama ‘Birthers’ that are “more like threats,” explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. “If you were born in Bali, for example,” Okubo explained, “you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it’s become very clear that it doesn’t matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It’s just become an urban legend at this point.”

The Health Department's director reiterated yesterday that she has seen Obama's birth records.
www.honoluluadvertiser.com...
"I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawai'i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai'i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai'i and is a natural-born American citizen,"

SO...what is "Vague" about this? If he was born outside the US and by some fluke was able to obtain a birth certificate after 1982...long after he was born, despite there being no retro-active component of the law......IF...BIG IF...he did get a COLB as a non-resident THEN it would state his ACTUAL PLACE OF BIRTH...OBAMA'S COLB STATES HAWAII.

SO any "Vagueness" is premised on the Senior staff of the Hawaiin Department of Health being part of the conspiracy. If their word does not matter and they are conspirators...than how will any "long form" in THEIR possesion satisfy anyone?

Vagueness?

Deny Ignorance anyone?

Second, the veracity with which the "right wing" media picked up what was once a "fringe" conspiracy theory is, in itself, a rather compelling conspiracy theory. Birth or "natural born" issues aside... the right wing media vilified birth-conspiracies just one year ago, and now seems unable to get enough of it.

The GOP has recently skewed further to the right and thus these conspiracies are more palatable to what remains of the party.

Third, there is enough "rumor" and innuendo "in the wild" to speculate that these conspiracies (and even the document inspiring this thread) originated via covert operations of the ideological left to perpetuate unproductive distractions and continue the divisive left-v-right rhetoric that deflects real attention away from real issues.

Okay...it's a distraction then...why champion the distraction rather than diffuse it and move on to more important issues?

Edit to add: I have no idea why my post slipped into "bold" half way through the post, but if a mod wants to correct it, feel free.


[edit on 7-8-2009 by maybereal11]

Mr Overlord, misrepresentation by omission is still misrepresentation.

I'm very disappointed. It was a bad call.

Hey ho. We live and learn.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I am the "intermediary" between a somewhat unknown original source, and FlyersFan.

On the evening of August 1st, I received an email to my personal "Above Network" email account that contained the attached photo I uploaded to our media server. The body of the email contained only this message: "Hi. you probably know me but i need to send this anon. this was sent to me by someone claiming to be close to a foreign investigation of obama. i don't know if its real but i figure your members could find out."

The email was sent via an anonymized web mail service, with no follow-up responses to my questions as to the source. I uploaded the picture to our server and alerted several members who were active in the Obama legitimacy debate... FlyersFan was the first to post.

I would have liked to read this in the OP from the beginning. Circumstances under which a document like this one come up are important. I understand the need for neutrality and careful precautions but in retrospect the tone of the OP "I can't tell you where it's coming from but I'm in the know" looks plainly stupid and lacking seriousness, precision and reliability.

I think a honest, frank and direct explanation with the minimal informations of how the document surfaced was essential.
It's a matter of trust.

It's my only disapproval on the whole issue. I acknowledge because it's very sensitive, it was a difficult case to handle as I acknowledge the full commitment and hard work of all the ATS staff but I really disagree with this method.

reply to post by maybereal11


Some people are not happy taking someone's word for it. Myself included. Show me the long form and I will no longer have much suspicion, but until he does I am not taking some womans word as proof of anything. And now that he has spent so much time not releasing his records this will always be a conspiracy. Just as there are 9/11 conspiracies today, this one will be around years to come as well.




[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Except for one thing ...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I just can't see the merits of embedding that video into ATS media from either an owner's or a member's point of view.

The only difference between the video you questioned and this one is a matter of historical timing and political perspectives/leanings.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


The sort of historical perspective one has when they travel 1000 years back in time to edit an OP?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/77b47df59f51.png[/atsimg]



It's all good, we got it right in the end ... all that matters really.

[edit on 7 Aug 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Keep digging at this, sooner or later maybe you'll find something.

The left have more motive to fake documents, plant disinformation and generally do anything to keep people focused on this issue, in any way shape or form as long as it keeps them busy and away from far more important issues.

Obama could end this controversy in an instant... Have you even given any thought to the fact that they have chosen this path in order to give you all something else to chase after?

I can almost hear the snickers in Washington now.

Meanwhile in Washington the same congress that blasted corporate executives for their use of private jets while their companies were in debt has approved hundreds of millions of YOUR tax dollars for 3 brand new private jets of their own to fly around in... at your expense!

At this point they are literally so drunk with their power they could care less what any of you think. So by all means stay focused, follow the rabbit, maybe it will lead you to the actual faked real documents that will prove that Obama was born in both Hawaii and Kenya.

Forgery and all aside . . .


Why in the hell is the Aussie BC coat of arms wrong?

Originally posted by KnoxMSP
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Some people are not happy taking someone's word for it. Myself included. Show me the long form and I will no longer have much suspicion, but until he does I am not taking some womans word as proof of anything. And now that he has spent so much time not releasing his records this will always be a conspiracy. Just as there are 9/11 conspiracies today, this one will be around years to come as well.




[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]
[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Knox, now you know better than that... You can't get the LONG form from Hawaii anymore. They stopped that many years back.

In Hawaii all you can get is the short form. No one can get a long form from hawaii, does that make every Hawaiian suspect?



[edit on 7-8-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Forgery and all aside . . .


Why in the hell is the Aussie BC coat of arms wrong?

It isn't.


That was just another sad justification for supporting the forgery you just put aside.

It doesn't matter what your take on all of this is, was or will be.

Maybe ATS conspired the whole thing to make $50 worth of additional ad revenue, and broaden exposure to a few hundred more viewers.

Maybe the Obama administration conspired to deceive the people and the government on this issue.

Maybe the simple fact is that Obama is a natural born citizen and there is NO conspiracy.

The reality is that NO matter what theory you have it does not matter, it will change nothing, nor will it do anything other than provide a convenient diversion of attention to anyone who will take part in this issue from any perspective, armed with any theory, evidence or fabricated materials or even those who will defend that which requires none.

Just my thoughts from a distant perspective, having watched this from a distance while I have been traveling, from time to time reading through this stuff.

I will go away again soon, I have more important real life issues to deal with.

Just in case anyone is feeling the way I'm feeling.

I kindly submit the following. This used to work wonders back when I was still single.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0d4a6b41eafe.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by KnoxMSP
When my daughter was born, we had birth announcements in my hometown in Florida, here locally in TN, and in my wife's hometown in PA. I don't understand how a birth announcement makes one bit of difference.

I'm not claiming that the birth announcements are proof of his Hawaiian birth. I'm saying that if this is all an elaborate scheme to overthrow the country using a foreign-born person, it's been in the works for 50 years, since Obama was a baby! Because those announcements can't be faked. It doesn't prove he was born in Hawaii. But if he wasn't, then someone was working on it 50 years ago and thought to put this particular baby's birth announcement in the papers so that 50 years in the future, they could use the announcements as evidence (not proof) of his US birth. It's what I call "out there".

As regards my earlier discussion with SO on what is and is not a conspiracy theory, I think any situation has "the official story" and at least one conspiracy theory.

Kennedy -
The official story: Lee Harvey Oswald acted completely alone and assassinated JFK.
The conspiracy theory: There were several gunmen and the government orchestrated the assassination.

9/11 -
The official story: Al Qaida operatives, under the guidance of Osama bin Laden hijacked planes and ran into buildings.
The conspiracy theory: Our government knew about the planned attack and maybe even aided the hijackers to gain support for their war on terror.

Obama -
The official story: Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural born citizen of this country and fully eligible to be president.
The conspiracy theory: Obama was born in Kenya and is not eligible to be president.

That's what I was trying to say. The official story is not a conspiracy theory to me. At least not in the way I think of a conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But if he wasn't, then someone was working on it 50 years ago and thought to put this particular baby's birth announcement in the papers so that 50 years in the future, they could use the announcements as evidence (not proof) of his US birth. It's what I call "out there".

Well, Obama's mama (sorry had to do it) could have wanted American citizenship for him, and to back up her "possibly falsified" Hawaiian BC, she had a relative post the birth announcement. There is still the fact that the adress listed on the birth announcement does not match residences for Stanley Ann Dunham or her relatives.

I'm just looking at all possible reasoning, and that would be a big one for me, if I were in her "hypothetical" shoes.

Also, like was listed above, why was the coat of arms on the SA BC wrong?

Still an ongoing conspiracy, and not fully debunked in my eyes, yet.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Kennedy -
The official story: Lee Harvey Oswald acted completely alone and assassinated JFK.
The conspiracy theory: There were several gunmen and the government orchestrated the assassination.

Obama -
The official story: Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural born citizen of this country and fully eligible to be president.
The conspiracy theory: Obama was born in Kenya and is not eligible to be president.

BH, I think you are on to something. I can't say where I got this but........
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fc1452ac5eb2.jpg[/atsimg]

Sorry if I am being obnoxious, but I remind you of directive in OP. This is supposed to be "fun." At this point, it's a joke.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by kinda kurious]

kinda kurious

Originally posted by KnoxMSP
Well, Obama's mama (sorry had to do it) could have wanted American citizenship for him, and to back up her "possibly falsified" Hawaiian BC, she had a relative post the birth announcement.

That's true, and in that case, the birth announcement wouldn't lend any credence to a conspiracy theory about the presidency. It would be neither here nor there.

There is still the fact that the adress listed on the birth announcement does not match residences for Stanley Ann Dunham or her relatives.

Yes it does

She and her parents, Kansas couple Stan Dunham, a furniture store operator, and Madelyn Dunham ("Toot," to Obama), a bank cashier, had come to Hawai'i in 1960 and moved into the Kalaniana'ole location.

I'm just looking at all possible reasoning,

Which is a very smart thing to do.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by KnoxMSP

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But if he wasn't, then someone was working on it 50 years ago and thought to put this particular baby's birth announcement in the papers so that 50 years in the future, they could use the announcements as evidence (not proof) of his US birth. It's what I call "out there".

Well, Obama's mama (sorry had to do it) could have wanted American citizenship for him, and to back up her "possibly falsified" Hawaiian BC, she had a relative post the birth announcement. There is still the fact that the adress listed on the birth announcement does not match residences for Stanley Ann Dunham or her relatives.

I'm just looking at all possible reasoning, and that would be a big one for me, if I were in her "hypothetical" shoes.

Also, like was listed above, why was the coat of arms on the SA BC wrong?

Still an ongoing conspiracy, and not fully debunked in my eyes, yet.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Unfortunately in the court of ideology and public opinion, this conspiracy will never be adequately debunked for many who believe it. The best those of us that don't give it credence can do is to present the actual facts of the case. In my eyes, and in the eyes of many, many others, this theory has been completely debunked.

Also, if you've been following this since 2008 when it began, you know the actual theory changes its foundations every few months or so to allow for more supposition and doubt on the subject when the previous evidence no longer fits with reality.

Edit to add: We landed on the moon half a decade ago and there's still wide speculation and theories claiming they faked the missions, so I honestly don't see this really fading away. It will probably trickle down when Obama is out of office, but I'm honestly not expecting it to fall by the wayside any time soon.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Avenginggecko]

reply to post by KnoxMSP

Well, Obama's mama (sorry had to do it) could have wanted American citizenship for him, and to back up her "possibly falsified" Hawaiian BC, she had a relative post the birth announcement.

There is still the fact that the adress listed on the birth announcement does not match residences for Stanley Ann Dunham or her relatives. I'm just looking at all possible reasoning, and that would be a big one for me, if I were in her "hypothetical" shoes.

Also, like was listed above, why was the coat of arms on the SA BC wrong?

Still an ongoing conspiracy, and not fully debunked in my eyes, yet.

In agreement

Obama's parents were politically active iirc, His mum attended a course on "Modern Government" just after he was born again iirc ?

I'm pretty sure the Kennedy's/ Bush's and Clintons take every step to ensure their offspring get all they need to make it to the top, So i'm sure these people do exist.

Further i think who ever made that fake BC to "Punk" the birther's has shot him/herself in the foot, Because it highlighted to a lot more people that there are LOTS of questions to be answered regarding Obama......And i think the movement will grow, And i don't think it will be long till some new evidence/Allegation that comes along that will stick.

Watergate and the Lewinsky deal tells us the truth will out if it is there ?

I see we have a new description of "political fraud" ...

Well that certainly resolves something being a hoax but not reassigned to the HOAX forum.



Now, I also saw this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b6cd807aa7b1.png[/atsimg]

Don't play innocent with us ... what is it like in the future?

Do we have a new God?

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Why post the video and do a ATS disclaimer and not the Kenyan Birth certifiate with a disclaimer?
Why different protocals on information sharing?

I'm not sure why one wouldnt have just admitted that? Why the cloak and dagger?
The source was pertanant to discussions and information was deliberatly kept from members specifically asking.
Why the gag order?
It was fun thread. But all information should have been revealed, why play the same tactics that the members feel that get all the time from government ?

Wasn't cool to keep source gagged, though I can see how the intirgue kept interest going, and hey Im ok with peeps making money, Im a capitalist pig myself at times. But info supression...not cool.
Information sharing protocols should be standardized and not designed to keep your members ignorant of facts pertaining to a specific line of enquiry.
It was asked plenty throughout the thread, they should have been answered then, not when the thread was dying out....