Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Devino

 

I understand your point and agree to a certain exstent. But given the title of the thread, the nature of the responses are going to be inherently negative.

I appreciate your reply, understanding is all that I hope to achieve in myself and with others. I think people are empathetic by nature and so we respond to negativity but perpetuating the problems with more negativity is a learned behavior from a dysfunctional system. Through understanding we can distinguish truth from fallacy and learn how to resolve versus perpetuate our problems.

reply to post by Devino


People don't seem to be interested in a plan that gives those without healthcare and those unhappy with their current health insurance, money in the form of vouchers, to provide funding for those who can't afford health insurance.

There are good ideas out there, but they are ignored in the MSM and here.

Add to this that they should have the same healthcare they are proposing for us.

Propose this in 2009:

START A BILL TO PLACE ALL POLITICIANS ON SOCIAL SECURITY
SOCIAL SECURITY:

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years.

Our Senators and Congresswomen do not pay into Social Security and, of course, they do not collect from it.
You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of their rare elevation in society. They felt they should have a special plan for themselves. So, many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan.

In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.

For all practical purposes their plan works like this:
When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die.
Except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments..

For example, Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7, 800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred Thousand Dollars), with their wives drawing $275, 000..00 during the last years of their lives.
This is calculated on an average life span for each of those two Dignitaries.

Younger Dignitaries who retire at an early age, will receive much more during the rest of their lives.

Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. NADA!!! ZILCH!!!

This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds;

"OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK"!

From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid) into, every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our employer), We can expect to get an average of
$1,000 per month after retirement.

Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000 monthly benefits for 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator Bill Bradley's benefits!

Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made.

That change would be to

Jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen.. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us

Then sit back.....

And see how fast they would fix it!

If enough people receive this, maybe a seed of awareness will be planted and maybe good changes will evolve.

White House ready to drop ‘public option’?
www.msnbc.msn.com...

WASHINGTON - Apparently ready to abandon the idea, President Barack Obama's health secretary said Sunday a government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul. The White House indicated it could jettison the contentious public option and settle on insurance cooperatives as an acceptable alternative, a move embraced by some Republicans lawmakers who have strongly opposed the administration's approach so far.

Its over. Once the president starts to think about abandoning certain features, on any specific issue, he will switch his philosophies to match public opinion. He will get healthcare reform, declare victory, but in the end loose the debate.

After Obama took over other sectors, people started to react to the phrase "government Runned". Anything that requires the government's involvement from now on will loose.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
That's the question i pose to you all. ....

Well, lets be as un-politically correct as possible so you get the truth.

If you want to help that's what charity and volunteer work is for. I donate to causes I feel just. However, it is my decision -- not yours nor my governments to whom I assist or why I assist them. Ultimately I have no obligation to you, your health care, nor your life. My obligations belong to my family and my children. Stay out of our lives, and I'll stay out of yours.

Correct me if i'm wrong please, but surely helping ....

You are assuming from the bias that this is "help". It is not help. It is mandatory payments for some person I don't know, and in all honesty I couldn't care less about. Lets be honest here, I really don't care about you nor your health care so... I certainly don't want to pay for it. All I care about is you stay out of my life, my paycheck, and and private business.

Second, we already HAVE programs that offer health insurance for those who can't afford it. Some programs on the State level like Medical come to mind. The poorest of the poor are already insured, and unfairly better than most productive workers insurance I might add.

Third, I know of NO ONE who enters hospital doors with a price tag floating around in their head. I've called 911 several times before my grandfather passed away, and not once did I think "oh gee, he's dying, can he pay for this?"

And forth, never once have I seen a poor family and thought to myself "Oh my! I wish they had health care!". Instead I think to myself, wow, what cockroach leeches of the system. That new LCD screen, brand new clothing, and cabinet full of food came from somewhere -- oh yeah, my paycheck.

In all fairness, for those truely down on their luck, I give them cash to buy food without a question asked.

In this nation you're poor by choice in order to be a cockroach in the system. I can point you to several family members who do exactly that.

We have the NHS in the U.K ..

I don't want a level playing field. I want the best of the best, and I am willing to pay for that. I've worked for it, and I've earned it with my own sweat and tears. If you're not willing or unable, go get an education or a better job. You're not mandated to stick to one professional field are you? The quicker people learn the lesson that nothing is entitled to you, the quicker our nation will rebuild and change for the better.

Only those who are unwilling or simply lazy want this at the expense of me and my family. It's not my fault or problem that you didn't apply yourself enough to learn to read, do math, or achieve high academic scores and scholarships for college. You know, the path to become a successful person? Sorry you were to busy passing notes in class about Billy Bob's cute smile.

Really now. The only stanch supporters of this I found are low income socialist people trying to push their ideology on me. You know, those who want my buck -- without working for it. I view it as another way to steal more money from my paycheck.

I am not trying to interfere or tell you how to run your country..?

Paying for it is a problem, and a major one at that. Shall we just borrow a couple trillion from China? Hillarycare found that out the hard way when they tried this crap the last time. We as a nation can't afford what we already have, so lets add another couple trillion to it? The price tag is enough to say no, as we need to live within our means before we collapse as a nation and this all becomes a moot point.

As for Big Brother? I'm tired of government mandating my life. Our government was setup to mandate them. I want my liberty and for you to leave me alone. There's plenty of other ways to reform health care do not invade my liberty or wallet.

Hope you found this post helpful in your quest for answers.

Update: Massachusetts Cuts Back Immigrants’ Health Care
www.nytimes.com...

BOSTON — State-subsidized health insurance for 31,000 legal immigrants here will no longer cover dental, hospice or skilled-nursing care under a scaled-back plan that Gov. Deval Patrick announced Monday.

Mr. Patrick said his administration had struggled to find a solution “that preserves the promise of health care reform” after the state legislature cut most of the $130 million it had previously allotted immigrants, to help close a budget deficit. Although their health benefits will be sharply curtailed in some cases, Mr. Patrick portrayed the new program as a victory, saying the services that the affected group tends to use the most will still be covered.

“It’s an extraordinary accomplishment,” he said in a conference call with reporters, “to offer virtually full coverage for the entire population that’s been impacted in the face of really extraordinary budget constraints.”

The new plan, which will cover permanent residents who have had green cards for less than five years, will cost the state $40 million a year. Some of the affected immigrants will be charged higher co-payments and will have to find new doctors, said Leslie A. Kirwan, Mr. Patrick’s finance director.

Hmmm... Rationing due to a deficit? I didn't see that one coming. Or, Deval is desperate to get voted back into office.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


This gives my reasons for opposing health care. We have much more critical issues to deal with and if we do not deal with them you can kiss ALL our social safety net good by. We need to identify and correct the actual source of our problems not fight over a health care bill that can never be implemented because there is no money to do so.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko you know, i don't care anyway. the US government won't exist in a few years so they won't have anything to do with healthcare.

Do you know something that we don't?

You have been here on at ATS for a while. Are you a disinfo agent or willfully blind?

First "money", the fiat currency called the dollar, is not "wealth", our labor, land and the products we produce. We trade our valuable labor for the bank worthless fiat dollar, dollars the banks create out of thin air.

The fed and the corporations control the US government: ATS

The fed has threatened to collapse the economy if we try to Audit ATS

Our government is BROKE ie BANKRUPT. ATS

The USA went off the gold standard in 1968 after the Fed assassinated JFK for Executive Order 11110 www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

American business is now owned by foreigners. Selling off American Corporations

Foreigners Own our seaports bridges and roads Department of Homeland Security reports that up to 80% ...

Foreign ownership of U.S. assets amounted to 33% of U.S. GDP in 1990. Today [2002] it is valued at over 70% of U.S. GDP. Foreigners own $2 trillion (19% of U.S. GDP) more in U.S. assets that the U.S. holds of theirs. Foreign ownership of the U.S. Treasury market is over 30%, over 23% of the corporate bond market, and 13% of the U.S. equity market. (Statistics courtesy of Bridgewater, Dec 13, 2002.) Source

The IRS deposits people's income tax checks directly in the Federal Reserve banks--not in the United States Treasury. See the back of your payment to the IRS and check it out.

the Grace Commission Report:
"With two-thirds of everyone's personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government." - from the The Grace Commission Report

I repeat the USA is BROKE So what will happen? The brotherhood of international bankers the Bank for International Settlements will step in and force the USA to accept "loans" from the World Bank/IMF and the strings attached to them called Structural Adjustment Policies (SAP)

Operating in great obscurity in Basel, Switzerland, this institution wields even greater power than the Federal Reserve as it is considered the "central banks' bank." The BIS, operating on the global level, coordinates with the "local central bank" in each country, the material changes in domestic law necessary to bring the world monetary system into harmony or one. Over the years, it has, like the Federal Reserve, amassed greater and greater control over more aspects of the global monetary system.

Structural Adjustment Policies are economic policies which countries must follow in order to qualify for new World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) loans and help them make debt repayments on the older debts owed to commercial banks, governments and the World Bank. Although SAPs are designed for individual countries but have common guiding principles and features....

SAPs often result in deep cuts in programmes like education, health and social care, and the removal of subsidies designed to control the price of basics such as food and milk. So SAPs hurt the poor most, because they depend heavily on these services and subsidies.

By devaluing the currency and simultaneously removing price controls, the immediate effect of a SAP is generally to hike prices up three or four times, increasing poverty to such an extent that riots are a frequent result.

In the dozens of countries where the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank have imposed structural adjustment programs (SAPs), the people who have seen deterioration in their standards of living, reduced access to public services, devastated environments, and plummeting employment prospects. www.whirledbank.org...

Hopefully now that you are better informed you can understand why Paul Craig Roberts former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury said

As a former Treasury official, I am amazed that the US government, in the midst of the worst financial crises ever, is content for short-selling to drive down the asset prices that the government is trying to support....The bald fact is that the combination of ignorance, negligence, and ideology that permitted the crisis to happen still prevails and is blocking any remedy. Either the people in power in Washington and the financial community are total dimwits or they are manipulating an opportunity to redistribute wealth from taxpayers, equity owners and pension funds to the financial sector. www.countercurrents.org...

Obama and Congress are busy playing the fiddle while Rome burns. It is time to kick them in the donkey and get them to do their real job, straighten out the mess and bring charges of Treason against those trying to over throw the USA.

On May 23, 1933, Congressman, Louis T. McFadden, brought formal charges against the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve Bank system, The Comptroller of the Currency and the Secretary of United States Treasury for numerous criminal acts, including but not limited to,

CONSPIRACY, FRAUD, UNLAWFUL CONVERSION, AND TREASON.

The petition for Articles of Impeachment was thereafter referred to the Judiciary Committee and has YET TO BE ACTED ON. www.maxexchange.com...

So what are we waiting for?

reply to post by crimvelvet


The US dollar that the Federal Reserve prints is not wealth as you pointed out. Wealth is this country, its people and what we can produce. For this reason the US is not broke, i.e. Bankrupt, unless we make the mistake of thinking the Federal Reserve is part of our government. The US is in deep trouble and for that reason I feel we all need to see things for what they are, to look at the "Truth" without fear.

The Federal Reserve Bank is not part of the United States of America, the Treasury department or any other government branch. It is an elite group of foreign owned banks and this is how it needs to be addressed, this also goes for the IRS.

So if the wealth is in the individual countries around the world and, more importantly, the billions of people that live in these countries then what ever the banks say is superfluous to reality and most of the time out right false.

reply to post by Devino

The US dollar that the Federal Reserve prints is not wealth as you pointed out. Wealth is this country, its people and what we can produce. For this reason the US is not broke, i.e. Bankrupt, unless we make the mistake of thinking the Federal Reserve is part of our government. The US is in deep trouble and for that reason I feel we all need to see things for what they are, to look at the "Truth" without fear

Unfortunately we have traded our "wealth" for their worthless fiat currency. We might be able to make a come back if we can keep the banking/corporate cartel from taking our land. The bill to do it passed the House and is headed for the Senate it is under the guise of "Food Safety" and the "harmonized" laws worked great in the EU

Foreign ownership of U.S. assets amounted to 33% of U.S. GDP in 1990. Today it is valued at over 70% of U.S. GDP. Foreigners own $2 trillion (19% of U.S. GDP) more in U.S. assets that the U.S. holds of theirs. Foreign ownership of the U.S. Treasury market is over 30%, over 23% of the corporate bond market, and 13% of the U.S. equity market. (Statistics courtesy of Bridgewater, Dec 13, 2002.) Source

The Department of Homeland Security reports that up to 80% of our ports are operated by foreign companies and Foreigners are buying and operating US bridges and toll roads. Link

Selling off American Corporations

According to the website Economy in Crisis, "Foreign ownership refers to ownership of assets of a particular industry by foreign controlled domestic U.S. Corporations (FDC) 50% or more owned by a foreign entity."[1]

By that definition, the percentage of foreign ownership as of 2002 by industrial sector was as follows:[2]

* Sound recording industries - 97%
* Commodity contracts dealing and brokerage - 79%
* Motion picture and sound recording industries - 75%
* Metal ore mining - 65%
* Motion picture and video industries - 64%
* Wineries and distilleries - 64%
* Database, directory, and other publishers - 63%
* Book publishers - 63%
* Cement, concrete, lime, and gypsum product - 62%
* Engine, turbine and power transmission equipment - 57%
* Rubber product - 53%
* Nonmetallic mineral product manufacturing - 53%
* Plastics and rubber products manufacturing - 52%
* Plastics product - 51%
* Other insurance related activities - 51%
* Boiler, tank, and shipping container - 50%
* Glass and glass product - 48%
* Coal mining - 48%
[and the list goes on]


Source Watch

The greedy bank/multinational cartels in the Ag business are trying to set up a world wide Monopoly on the food supply. They crashed the real estate market in this country, used WTO "Free Trade" and HACCP to create food scares and have the plans (food safety bills) in place to take over (as corporations) most of America's farmland. They drove 60% of the independent farmers off the land in Portugal, and plan to remove a million Poles off their land in Poland. In other parts of the world the transnational Agri-corporations' aggressive monopolization of the food supply has caused a child to starve to death every 30 seconds, caused 150,000 farm suicides in India, many by drinking Monsanto pesticides, and in Mexico, caused the number of farmers to drop an astounding 75% from 2.3 million in 1992 to 575,000 in 2002.

It was bad enough a few years ago, when the World Trade Organization wanted the USDA to make farmers place a "premises ID" (lose your "property rights) on their farms and tag all livestock. The tags were RFID and you had to report, within 24 hours, every time a critter left or entered the "premise". It was upsetting when the USDA refused to change the designation from premises to Property ID and even more upsetting to be referred to as a "stakeholder". A stakeholder is a NON-OWNER holding property until the legal owner is identified! We figured the bankers wanted an accounting of all the farmland and livestock they would soon own and did not want to bother to count it themselves. Now we find out that wasn't a joke.

I have about 19 pages of references (three years worth) on what the Ag cartels are up to in regards to farming and food. This will give you an idea of why farmers are going ballistic over the topic. Tne information is accurate even if the style is Alarmist. (I helped with the research)

a. the bills give "the Administrator" power over every person in the country who "holds" food (everyone). yupfarming.blogspot.com...


b. set up a division for this that is independently funded so no congressional oversight.


c. includes massive punishments (million dollar a day fines and up to ten years in prison) but these punishments are not exclusive of anything more that may be available (leaving the door open to ... anything. Torture?). yupfarming.blogspot.com...


d. is expected to be run by Monsanto lawyer Michael Taylor - www.postcarbon.org...) so Monsanto, considered the evilest corporation in the world and the greatest threat to food and nature, will have power over the entire US food supply, including over decisions on punishments.


e. with no judicial review over even the appropriateness and validity of punishments for as yet unstated "crimes." So, they could apply this to anyone, to anything at all, and it doesn't have to have any relation whatever to food ... and it is not subject to review. [that mean you do not get a trial by a judge or a jury] A police state.


f. and this is all on top of surveillance, monitoring, warrant-less entry, no due process, taking of all records, etc. included in the bills
yupfarming.blogspot.com...



g. Monsanto's Taylor was involved in designing the bills.
farmwars.info...

Source: yupfarming.blogspot.com...

And more World Trade Organization grabs

Why Does the WTO Want My Water?

Up for grabs at the negotiating table is worldwide privatization and deregulation of public energy and water utilities, postal services, higher education and state alcohol distribution controls; a new right for foreign firms to obtain U.S. Small Business Administration loans; elimination of a list of specific U.S. state laws about land use, professional licensing and consumer protections, and extreme deregulation of private-sector service industries such as insurance, banking, mutual funds and securities. Source

I'm not against Public Health Care...I just want it done right and nobody seems to be able to do that right now, so let's just leave it alone for now and concentrate on our other problems.

some things to think about when considering how efficient for-profit health care is.

in the 2000 World Health Organization quality of care rankings the US. came 37th,
meaning it gave the about same quality of care as croatia, slovenia and bahrain.

as of 2004 the US. spent just over 15% of its GDP on health care according to CMS
(Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Sevices)
Canada spent 9.9%, Germany 10.6%, UK 8.1%

as of 2006 according to the WHO the US. spent 52-55% more than Switzerland,
Norway, and Luxembourg PER CAPITA on health care costs.
these countries come 2nd 3rd and 4th on the list of countries that spend the most on health care.
and also the US. spent PER CAPITA 158-160% more than the countries
who spend the least on health care costs, countries like italy, japan, and finland
(ALL these countries scored higher on the quality of care rankings than the US.)

inside the US. the Journal of the American Medical Association found that “investor owned” HMOs
performed worse than "non-profit" HMOs in 14 different areas of service.
(example: Private HMOs provided for eye exams at a rate 27% lower than non-profit HMOs)



if private health care really was the efficient way to go then
the US. would spend less and get more than other countries that use a "socialized" health care system
and also would be able to provide adequate health care to the 75milion
or 25% of the population who are missing out (50m uninsured and 25m under insured)

personally i think if the US. was to end up with a health care system like the NHS
in the UK it could do (and is doing) a lot worse.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Plane and simple.

Greed.

Selfishness.

Self Serving and arrogant individuals who call themselves Americans.

Those who would seek to keep their own welfare while denying the welfare of others are neither altruistic or any mannerism of Christ in my belief.

Whatsoever you do unto others, you have done unto me.

Peace

[edit on 4-9-2009 by HIFIGUY]

I am against it because in its current form, I will be required to get health insurance. I am currently unemployed and collecting nothing from anyone. How am I supposed to pay for health insurance?

Well, under the proposed system, my fellow citizens will pay for it. I've never done anything for them, that they owe me this money. Why should I take their money? Under this system, I will be taking something I have not earned. That is stealing. Under Obamacare, it will be illegal for me not to steal. How is that fair to me? How is that fair to you? Do you really want to pay for my health insurance for me just because I don't have a job right now?

If you're really feeling that charitable, I'll tell you what. I'm not sick, and haven't required medical services in 8 years - and that was just a health check to get my driver's license. If you want to pay something for me, how 'bout you pay my rent that's over a week past due? I'll die without a home much faster than I'll die without a check up.

At any rate, we already have laws in place where a hospital can't refuse patients who can't afford to pay. It's not like if you get sick in the United States, you get left to die in the streets.

If they want to reform health care, why don't they start with getting rid of all the frivolous lawsuits that drive up the cost of medical care for everyone? Why don't they stop health insurance companies from screwing over the little guys? Now that would be reform! Or maybe they could pass a law requiring doctors to offer generic prescriptions, instead of just handing out prescriptions to the over priced name brands.

There's a ton of reforms that I think we are past due for. Making me choose between being a criminal and a mooch isn't one of them.

Originally posted by mattifikation


Well, under the proposed system, my fellow citizens will pay for it. I've never done anything for them, that they owe me this money. Why should I take their money? Under this system, I will be taking something I have not earned. That is stealing.

At any rate, we already have laws in place where a hospital can't refuse patients who can't afford to pay. It's not like if you get sick in the United States, you get left to die in the streets.

See the contradiction in those two statements?

If someone who is uninsured gets sick, even though hospitals may be required to treat them, they're not being treated for free. Hospitals simply have to charge more to peole who do have insurance to make up for it. Therefore, if you're uninsured, somebody's going to have to pay for your health care, regardless if its through taxation or higher insurance premiums.

This is one reason that costs are skyrocketing: the very fact that some people are uninsured, while many more are underinsured, in itself causes costs to rise because somebody has to pay for the treatment. Universal health care lowers costs, in part, by insuring everyone.