You have every right in the world to whoop ya kid's..PLZ start I am sick of all the punk's

The double underwear trick always worked for me.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Oh, it is 100% the fault of the Educator. It is also 100% the fault of the parents for not properly disciplining the children. This is not a mathematical impossibility.

Parents pass off blame, and apparently, SO DO YOU. Recognize your responsibility as an Educator and don't say, "Well yeah, but it's THEIR fault over there! Not me, the poor innocent educator!"

Educators do discipline. It's just that the good ones choose not to use violence.

Originally posted by TheColdDragonjust as much as I can't get rid of sycophantic silver-spoon's who see the world through kaleidoscope eyes.

You obviously know nothing about me and are just making things up.

Originally posted by TheColdDragonAnd you ignore my example. It is better to strike the child than have a dead child. There are some threats that require that there be NO mistake that the behavior being displayed is bad and harmful.

You're missing the FACT that there are appropriate non-violent methods and that if you had been doing you job as a parent properly in the first place then there wouldn't be the need for further discipline.

You quote the "Good Book", let me do you the same; "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child".

Originally posted by TheColdDragon However, not EVERY solution as a parent calls for a cup o' tea and a wee chat with the youngun.

In reply to your earlier name calling, you really are ignorant aren't you, if you think that this is the only non-violent response. Nice attempt at whitewashing, but no, there is no excuse for violence.

Originally posted by TheColdDragonYour method may work for some children, but it *WILL NOT* work for all children. PERIOD. And if you think differently, you know NOTHING about child psychology.

I know more about child psychology than you think. I guess things are different (thankfully) in New Zealand. I wonder why so many American educators come to New Zealand to study our methods?

Perhaps it's because your methods demonstrably do not work sand they have hope that there are other, less destructive options.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by aorAki]

In the paper today. I know it will fall on deaf ears.. oh well...

www.nzherald.co.nz...

A New Plymouth couple have stopped smacking their preschool children after they found that it quickly escalated into "bullying".

Stephen and Leanne Hodge said their 4-year-old son's aggression disappeared in two days after they heeded the advice of a pamphlet on other ways to manage preschoolers.

Mr Hodge wrote on the Herald's online forum on smacking this week that he and his wife were starting to feel sick about their family life until they stopped smacking a few months ago.

"Once I started smacking, I noticed it would escalate - the children started hitting each other and would also react violently to discipline. So I would have to maintain the strong-arm tactics, and they also escalated until I had become a bully," he wrote.

He said yesterday that the couple's 4-year-old son used to "come out fighting straight away" when he anticipated a smack, and that his 2-year-old sister copied him.

"It developed an era of nastiness," he said. "He would be very belligerent. We had to be belligerent back. Because we had bought into the physical nature of discipline, he knew that was going to be the result of it so he would start fighting before it even started.

link

"It just developed into an era of conflict in everything. From our gentle and careful parenting, it was becoming aggressive parenting."

Things changed when Mr Hodge took his son to a swimming pool one day and picked up a pamphlet from the Government programme SKIP (Strategies for Kids/Information for Parents).

"It was just a few bullet-points. I took it home and talked to my wife and we decided to try it.

"Everybody sat down and we said, 'Right, from now on we are not going to have hitting in our house. We're sorry we've smacked you. From now on we all treat each other the same, we stay happy and we don't have hitting in our house'."

Now the parents try to be firm but calm. Mr Hodge quoted a recent incident when his son refused to put his shoes on to go out.

"I leaned right into him, kept a calm voice, even slowed it down more, and said, 'Stop what you are doing right now and let's go'," he said.

"As soon as you lose your temper or force the issue on to him, he fights back, so it's important not to lose your temper, and explain carefully. He does cotton on that this is serious and you have to do it straight away."

The family also uses a "naughty chair" where "he can be seen to be quiet and do the right thing".

"It's a phrase we use a lot with him - 'do the right thing'," Mr Hodge said. "He kind of snaps out of his temper tantrum. All of a sudden he gets clarity in his eyes and starts listening."

Mr Hodge, a property developer who moved from Auckland to New Plymouth in 2003, said children were calmer in New Plymouth.

He believed that was because house prices were lower there and mothers could afford to stay home with their children, giving them individual attention.

* Some tips from Skip

Say lots more positive than negative things.

Behave in the same way you want your children to.

Consistency is the key.

Tell your child when they're doing well.

Be clear about what you would like your child to do and what you don't want them to do. Set limits and boundaries.

Talk to your child about consequences. For instance, tell them that if they hit the cat it might scratch them, or if they throw a toy it might break.

Try not to say "No" and "Don't" all the time. Instead of saying "Don't run in the house," say, "Walk in the house, you might hurt yourself if you run".

Source: www.familyservices.govt.nz/info-for-families/skip

[mod edit: fixed long link skewing page]

[edit on 30-7-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by DGFenrir

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Oh yeah, forgot to mention Roger... violence is slapping your child on its wrist to prevent it touching an open fire?

Jesus mate, if you controlled the world we would all be in trouble...

The lesson would be better if the kid touched the fire!
He'd know the consiquenses of it better..

So you would rather have a permanently disfigured child with severe burn scaring for the rest of its life?

Whats going to hurt more? The pain of a slap to dissuade the kid from touching the fire? or the pain caused from actually touching it?

Originally posted by jfj123
Now I could have let my anger take over and EASILY beat them into a gooey paste but I didn't. I do think their parents should however. That type of behavior is inexcusable and taking away their iphone for a day won't correct the problem.

While I agree that this sounds like a frustrating situation, you're not just talking about a swat on the ass here. You're discussing wanting to administer a fairly extreme level of violence. You're also thinking in rigid black and white terms; you aren't restricted to either a violent response or an ineffectual one. There's an entire spectrum of behavior available that you seem blind to.

That being said, anger is anger. Everyone who is angry reacts with some type of emotional violence whether it's exhibited or not.

I agree that everyone feels some form of extreme emotion. Not everyone reacts violently.

I'm an adult and have full control of my faculties and can make decisions without psychologically dissecting my entire childhood.

While I agree that you certainly can make decisions without dissecting yourself, those decisions might not be as conscious as you may think. Our perceptions of the world (or our prejudices) are molded by our experiences all the way back to childhood, whether we like it or not and whether we're aware of it or not. That's why "whooping" children is a bad idea; you're imprinting them with the idea that violence is a valid option for solving problems in life.

You're living proof of this imprinting. When faced with a frustrating situation you had to resist the urge to physically attack someone, or turn them into "a gooey paste." When you spank your child it contributes to that child having to deal with the same violent streak that you and I and everyone else who has imprinted violent trauma and fear have to resist.

1. You don't HIT a child. As example, if I HIT you. You'd be unconscience.

You've made several references to your physical prowess. You can "EASILY" turn people into "gooey paste" and if you hit me, I'd be unconscious. Violence haunts a lot of your language, and I'd guess that fear in the form of aggression and anger appear a lot on the "inside." That's really hard to deal with, and I hope that you can learn to let it go one day.

NO ! THIS IS THE DIGITAL EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed it is. And so is this:

Originally posted by jfj123
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

...

Originally posted by jfj123
I'm explaining my position and you're trying to change the meaning of what I'm saying by using words that are inappropriate within the context of what I'm saying.
What would you rather have. A swat on the butt or a BEATING? This is a real question I'd like you to answer.

Again: I am not misrepresenting you. You are advocating violence as punishment. A swat on the butt is violence. It's hitting your child, and it carries with it the implication of more violence should the child continue misbehaving. It's mild violence with the implicit threat of more severe violence.

Have you ever been attacked? Would you consider an ATTACK (your word) the same as a swat? YES or NO ?

Yes, I have been attacked, and as a child I was "swatted" and worse.

Consider as a metaphor that in your psyche is a weight scale, but instead of measuring how heavy something is, it measures psychic trauma. An attack is a big heavy rock; a swat can be from a grain of sand to a pebble. They clearly aren't the same thing, but they are both traumatic. The implicit threat of further violence (fear and intimidation) also registers on this scale.


[edit on 30/7/2009 by BarryZuckercorn]

[edit on 30/7/2009 by BarryZuckercorn]

I have to disagree with the whole grounding doesn't work or taking away their possessions. When I was a kid I was hit a lot, to the point it was plain abuse. But I do remember this one time I was really bad and pushed my parents to ground me for the first time in my life. A week in my room with no television or phone access. That was the longest week of my life. The only things I were allowed to do were puzzles and read. It was also March break. While all my friends were hanging out, I had to sit around and do nothing. I tell you, I never forgot that. While I did get hit after that because I lived with an alcoholic, I never wanted to be grounded. Being smack might hurt for a few minutes, but being in that room for a week was insane for me! Grounding does work. You just have to know what to take away to punish them. Trust me, they will learn respect.

Hitting or spanking a child is done out of anger, don't tell me it isn't. Because I know it is. Children get spanked not because they are doing something wrong, but because they aren't listening to their parents and the parent gets angry and spanks them in hopes that will stop them.

I am not telling anyone how to raise their children. My kids are mine , yours are yours. If you feel spanking is fair enough then by all means do it. It really isn't any of my business. But I don't like spanking my children.

Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by DGFenrir

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Oh yeah, forgot to mention Roger... violence is slapping your child on its wrist to prevent it touching an open fire?

Jesus mate, if you controlled the world we would all be in trouble...

The lesson would be better if the kid touched the fire!
He'd know the consiquenses of it better..

So you would rather have a permanently disfigured child with severe burn scaring for the rest of its life?

Whats going to hurt more? The pain of a slap to dissuade the kid from touching the fire? or the pain caused from actually touching it?

Wow, whatever happened to educating your child or being responsible first hand for their safety? If they are old enough teach them about fire and the danger, if they are too young to understand why the hell are they walking around an open fire? All they've learned is 'if someone is doing something I don't like then hit them, that's the ticket!'. sigh x infinity

[mod edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link
..............................................................................

The point about why would they be walking around an open fire place if they were that young is a good one but I just chose that as a random example to explain my point.

I'm not going to stipulate on the various scenarios, I'm sure you could think of one yourself.

Kids are kids, most people in this thread seem to be forgetting that.

Even if you explain not to do something or why they shouldn't do something more often than not they will still do it.

A child doesn't understand the concepts of life & death and generally doesn't really have any fear. Thats dangerous for them and dangerous for you (in the sense they could harm themselves)

I see nothing wrong with the use of smacking a child for positive reinforcement. The child will remember and associate the smack and verbal ticking off to the action and they won't do it again in the future.

Also I agree that as a parent you should be first hand responsible for your child but what happened to teaching your child to look after itself for when it becomes older?

I tried to put some keys in a plug socket once when I was a kid and do you know what happened?

I got smacked and shouted out, my mum and dad telling me what could have happened. I don't remember neither the smack or the shouting (although I've asked my parents about it, thats how I know)

But guess what? I've never tried to stick keys in a socket ever since.



[edit on 30-7-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Ahhh, educators. So, do I hold you and your family responsible for the rampant stupidity and abysmally mind-twisting idiocy of the modern youth?

[]

Nope, blame the parents. The educators have a hard enough time of it as it is.

Yes, I would call the police. Why wouldn't I?

Violence is laziness. It is ignorance and it breeds violence.

You would call the police? Thats because your a do-gooder, what business is it of yours?

Would you like it if I started prying into your life? Telling you how you should run it?

I also suppose from your post that you've never been violent or angry yourself??? No... didn't think so.

I am the proud parent of a intelligent, resourceful, creative and handsome son...who is extremely respectful and knows his boundaries, I have spanked him I believe a total of 2 times in all his years, but I have given him a STEARN talking to on occasion...at a moderate level and completely explain to him why I must set him straight and if he continues on the wrong path where the consequences will lead! it seems to work great(for me)...in the past I was spanked...okay WHOOPED alot! Mainly by my father and have the scars and permanent bruises to prove it, once for using the word LIAR in a sentence....getting hit with "the belt" became almost a daily event for years...please exhuast all options before turning a belt to a child...if you explain yourself in a stearn, forceful voice...your outcome could be different! give it a try! Think of all the joy and fullfillment your child has given you...and tell your child you love them EVERYDAY! It is now your responsibilty to make sure your child has a better life than yourself...make sure you take care of your future generations...I remember when I had been kicked by my father for being sick and not being able to make it to school that day! I will not let the same happen to my son...NEVER!!!!

Originally posted by aorAki
Educators do discipline. It's just that the good ones choose not to use violence.

Well, naturally, since corporal punishment isn't allowed in public schools anymore. But that's beside the point, rotten kids are just as much your responsibility as it is the parents, don't say "I'm helpless, the bad parents just ruin the kids I help".

You obviously know nothing about me and are just making things up.

Hey, if you assume I was talking about you, go right ahead.

You're missing the FACT that there are appropriate non-violent methods and that if you had been doing you job as a parent properly in the first place then there wouldn't be the need for further discipline.

Hell no I'm not. I fully comprehend and acknowledge and utilize as a parent a variety of purposeful behavior adjustment methodologies.

Fortunately, I don't have to spank my son all that often.

In reply to your earlier name calling, you really are ignorant aren't you, if you think that this is the only non-violent response. Nice attempt at whitewashing, but no, there is no excuse for violence.

Oh, I completely agree. There is no excuse for violence. Because it doesn't need an excuse. Now reason, I'd say spanking sure does need a reason, and that reason needs to be illucidated upon with the child in question. A spanking without a reason is like a Car without wheels.

I know more about child psychology than you think. I guess things are different (thankfully) in New Zealand. I wonder why so many American educators come to New Zealand to study our methods?

There are a lot of reasons why American education stinks. For one, Corporal punishment is illegal in public schools nowadays. I wouldn't argue that is a MAJOR reason though, I'd think it has more to do with how the schools are designed to teach to the stupid kids and ignore the smart ones. That and a dozen other factors, all far more important than Corporal Punishment, which as I mentioned before SCHOOLS don't do in the USA.

Perhaps it's because your methods demonstrably do not work sand they have hope that there are other, less destructive options.
[edit on 30-7-2009 by aorAki]

And I'd argue that our schools aren't designed to work, they're designed to pump out brainless consumers and worker bees. But that is a whole other subject; Seeing as how you're from a completely different country to which I never went to school, I haven't a clue if you contribute to the detritus of society.

But I will say that the common American Teacher has been made not to care about an actual education, and those that do, are run out of the system.

I will say this though; if you somehow think that there is one solution to child-rearing of all children, you are exposing how little of both human and child psychology you have studied; Humans are not uniform in temperament, disposition, inclination towards obedience or reason.

Skinner may have been a terrible monster for what he did to his own daughter, but he did display the effectiveness of both negative and positive reinforcement. Whether you MORALLY agree with the use of negative reinforcement or not is completely inconsequential.

I am surprised that NOBODY in this thread has mentioned how the criticisms of how people raise their children is a subtle but sharp stab that people who do such a thing are DEFICIENT PEOPLE, or DEFECTIVE in the eyes of those against it.

Originally posted by fatherkino
I am the proud parent of a intelligent, resourceful, creative and handsome son...who is extremely respectful and knows his boundaries, I have spanked him I believe a total of 2 times in all his years, but I have given him a STEARN talking to on occasion...at a moderate level and completely explain to him why I must set him straight and if he continues on the wrong path where the consequences will lead! it seems to work great(for me)...in the past I was spanked...okay WHOOPED alot! Mainly by my father and have the scars and permanent bruises to prove it, once for using the word LIAR in a sentence....getting hit with "the belt" became almost a daily event for years...please exhuast all options before turning a belt to a child...if you explain yourself in a stearn, forceful voice...your outcome could be different! give it a try! Think of all the joy and fullfillment your child has given you...and tell your child you love them EVERYDAY! It is now your responsibilty to make sure your child has a better life than yourself...make sure you take care of your future generations...I remember when I had been kicked by my father for being sick and not being able to make it to school that day! I will not let the same happen to my son...NEVER!!!!

Good job for breaking the cycle. I was raised by fear and once at it's height was punched cold in the face when I was about 8. People do not realise smacking becomes desensitised which in turn requires more and harder smacking. The scientific evidence for the damage done by physically hitting your child is irrefutable. You think the mentality would be... if there is a 0.000001% chance I am doing them psychological damage I will not go there. We've raised 2 kids without a single smack, one was a very difficult child too. They are now great people, successful and confident. Most of my life due to the smacking and verbal scoldings I had horrible self esteem and issues. It took a long time to get over. Why will smackers not even try to learn the alternative methods? All I can think of is laziness. It's mind boggling.

reply to post by fatherkino

I will say this though; if you somehow think that there is one solution to child-rearing of all children, you are exposing how little of both human and child psychology you have studied; Humans are not uniform in temperament, disposition, inclination towards obedience or reason.

I'll say this, that without doubt you do NOT need to use any form of physical method to raise any type of child. In fact it is proven that a difficult child that is handled with smacking becomes even worse. The large studies are out there. I stand by the statement 110% there is no justification ever for physical abuse, and call it what you like "flick, jab, correction" whatever makes you feel better, it's abuse and it damages more than you can obviously comprehend.

Originally posted by contemplator
People do not realise smacking becomes desensitised which in turn requires more and harder smacking. The scientific evidence for the damage done by physically hitting your child is irrefutable.

Cite your sources or confess Bovine Excrement.

I know of no studies which propose this.

[mod edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link
..............................................................................

Wow, there are dozens of solid studies. This site paraphrases some of them:

www.wavetrust.org...



[edit on 30-7-2009 by contemplator]



[edit on 30-7-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

reply to post by contemplator


An aggregate cite whose organization is against Spanking to begin with is not an impartial site. Secondly, their bibliography doesn't provide any links to the peer reviewed studies, which most are published in online journals nowadays.

Thirdly, they cite twelve studies; I want to know more about these studies as well as the people that conducted them, their sample sizes and whether it was a double blind study or what.

Give me information, not purile patronizing; I respect a well reasoned argument more than personal feelings.

Can I just point something out for everyone single member who has participated in this thread?

Even though the action of smacking a child when its done something wrong will cause that child to associate being smacked to that said wrong and hopefully dissuade it from doing it again, that isn't the whole picture.

The intention isn't to slap or smack your kid that hard that it will never do the wrong again. More so the idea if to explain to the child what its done wrong and reaffirm with a smack.

Not only will the child associate the smack to the wrong doing but also your body language, facial expressions and tone of voice.

Basically the child should know its done something wrong before the smack comes. It will be able to tell from your face and voice that they are in trouble and that you, its parent, are not happy.

reply to post by contemplator


While I'm sorry about your childhood, which seems quite violent from how you have described, I need to point something out.

Firstly being punched cold in the face isn't the same as a smack or slap accross the back of the legs to discipline. It is in fact child abuse, although I'm pretty sure you already know this.

Secondly, I remember once when I bought a meat pie from the shop and it was disgusting - it made me sick. Did that mean however that all meat pie would be disgusting and make me sick in the future?

I hope you see the analogy but what I'm trying to say is just because something happened to you doesnt mean its the same for everyone else.

Thirdly, there isn't any concrete scientific evidence to my knowledge that proves smacking a child is harmful.

I was smacked and slapped accross the legs as a child and I'm doing just fine.

Have you really had self esteem issues or are you just saying that to support your agument?

Are you sure those issues, if real, stem from being smacked as a child? How would you know that?

I'll repeat again; just because you suffered a bad experience does not mean that all parents who smack their children were like yours.

There is no shortage of studies out there from unbiased sites. The fact is the smackers have made up their minds and no form of proof whatsoever will ever change their mind so I'm wasting my time. I suggest a smacker do some googling and hard research. I work 2 full time jobs so can't sit here all night citing studies for you. Maybe someone else will step up and post direct links. Until then happy smacking..

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by aorAki

 

You'd call the police if a parent spanked their child? I'm not talking about a beating, I'm talking about a swat on the but to get their attention? You'd actually call the police and try to have the parent arrested over that? YES or NO?

In New Zealand, it is illegal as was proven in a recent case, so yes, I would have no qualms.
You see, I believe passionately that we need to break this cycle of violence that we ALL seem to be mired in. I don't see how using a violent action will aid that.

Luckily it's not illegal in the United States to raise and discipline your child. Glad I don't live in a police state like New Zealand.