9/11 Lack of Roof Top Rescues.

I am fully aware on the normal procedures of fires in high rise buildings, head for the ground and keep going, never go up, up is bad. Common sense time.....

1. What if the way down is blocked?, and going up is the only option left, also is it not the case that most buildings with fire escapes in, these escapes are in the way of steel staircases which actually start at the roof and lead down.

2. So in several cases up is good, it can and has saved lives, after all any option that is open that increases the chance to survive has to be good.... yes?.

3. Yes of course it does, especially with the added bonus of extra tall towers and flat enough roofs for helicopters to land on, in fact when the way down is completely cut off, otherwise known as the floors above the impact zone, this is the only chance of survival you have.

4. Why where these doors locked via a central locking system and controlled via security when anyone with an IQ above 0 can work out they should be classified as fire escape doors, and have the obligatory `In case of emergency break glass status`.

37 people in the north tower that were trapped committed suicide by jumping, it is estimated that another 700 that died were in the floors above the initial impact, someone decided for these people that death was the only option via locking these doors and no emergency release mechanism installed, someone decided that having a fire escape route to the roof was not an option, someone had removed the only choice available from a one option only equation.... WHY?.

Was it the same person that prohibited pilots that are trained to rescue people in far more hazardous situations than that day, from rescuing anyone who did make it to the roofs?, these guys pluck people from the sea in ravaging hurricanes, they rescue shot or wounded comrades in battle zones, they rescue mountaineers that have broken limbs in high risk zones, they rescue trapped people who make it to roof tops in buildings bombed by terrorists 1993 (ring any bells).

Who removed the roof top option of survival and forbid helicopter rescues on 9/11 and why.

Debunk this thread as much as you want, but no amount of debunking can explain why a 100% chance to die was enforced for those on and above storeys of the initial impact.

A dead man tells no tales.

reply to post by Seventh


Access to the roofs of WTC towers were secured by heavy security
doors to prevent daredevils, thrillseekers and suicides from gaining
access and jumping off. Access to roof required security badge and
a video monitor

High raise stairways and elevators above the fire are deadly places to be because smoke and fire gases rise filling these spaces in what is called
the "STACK EFFECT" .

In the 1980 Las Vegas MGM hotel fire most of the fatalities were on the
top floors - the fire was in a ground floor restuarant. Smoke and gases
rose through elevator shafts and stairways .

The roof of these buildings were crowded with all manor of obstructions -
A/C vents and equipment and dozens of antenna for broadcast radio/TV
stations, paging companies, cell phones. This made landing impossible

Following the 1993 bombing the NYPD did evacuate a small number of
disabled people from the roof of south tower. In one case ESU personnel had to rappel down to roof of north tower to chop down some antenna
to gain access.

Here is statement from NYPD pilot on conditions

At 8:58 a.m., a helicopter pilot reported on rooftop conditions.

James Ciccone, Police Officer, NYPD Aviation Unit: On the morning of September 11th, as I arrived at World Trade Tower 1, I was accessing the damage on the north side of the building, and the rooftop area for the possibility of rooftop extraction from one of our heavier lift helicopter. And at that point, a few passes, and slow passes, we made a determination that we didn't see anybody up on the roof, but more so we had problems with the heat and the smoke from the building. The heat actually made it difficult for us to hold the helicopters because it would interfere with the rotor system.

The smoke and heat from the fires prevented the helicopters from approaching the buildings to land. Even then would have required a squad
of men to breech the security doors.

Futhermore search and rescue helicopters - like that used by US Coast Guard have rescue baskets and hoists manned by highly skilled personnel
As far as I know NYPD helicopters are not equipped with rescue hoists.
So picking people out of windows was not an option

High raise rescue is a very demanding and dangerous undertaking - this
is not HOLLYWOOD.

reply to post by thedman


This is not Hollywood, you`re damned right it aint, why were the people trapped inside not given the chance to live?, and.......

Tough Challenge

On Sept. 11, a rescue from the north tower would have been difficult but possible, Mr. Semendinger and other veteran helicopter-rescue pilots say. The first building hit by a hijacked plane, at 8:48 a.m., the north tower was the second to collapse, one hour and 45 minutes later. Records of calls to 911 operators, first reported by the New York Daily News, show that people on the top floors were seeking help at least until 10:12 a.m., one hour and 24 minutes after the strike. With fire raging on the floors below them, they had no hope of walking down to safety.

Whether even a few of those lives could have been saved by a roof rescue isn't clear. Climbing staircases rapidly filling with smoke could have been tough. The plane's impact might have knocked stairway doors out of alignment, making them impassible, regardless of whether they were locked. The intense smoke and forest of rooftop antennas made landing a helicopter impossible. Rescuers also could have had trouble if a crowd of workers turned into a desperate mob, competing to get off the roof.

But Mr. Semendinger says the wind that morning did leave a corner of the tower relatively clear of smoke, almost until the building collapsed. Using a hoist with folding seats, rescuers could have saved as many as a few dozen people, he estimates.

Why was the option to at least have a chance of survival completely removed?, it`s safe to say there was a time span that gave plenty of time to try roof rescues when everyone beneath had escaped the building, in the statement above from rescue pilots (not yours or mine perception of why or why not), they said it was possible.

And like I stated in my original post, give the reason that those trapped were not given the choice or chance of survival, I don`t give a flying f*ck on what laws were passed or not passed regarding roof top rescues, pilots clearly stated it would be hard but not impossible to have saved some if not all.

Why were the doors not broken open and people saved by rescue crews, the same rescue crews that save people from burning oil rigs and so much more?.

reply to post by Seventh

A dead man tells no tales.

This guy had a tale to tell until the ABC reporters were ordered to ignore him.

WTC Victim Gartenberg Live On ABC

Core was blown from the inside out

Trapped on the 86th floor of WTC1 by blocked fire doors, Mr James M Gartenberg (age - 36) was just 8 floors below where the aircraft struck. Mr Gartenberg was on the east side of the North Tower facing the East River and the aircraft struck on the northeast side of the North Tower. The core must have blown towards Mr Gartenberg else how could he have seen it? The inner glass was blown out on the 86th floor, but not the outer glass according to Mr Gartenberg. Therefore the heavy core blowing out was almost at right angle to the direction of the aircraft inertia. Eight floors lower and the heavy core blowing out can only be explained by planted demolition charges. Jet fuel burning could not possibly exert that much force 8 floors below the impact zone.




Taking another look at the Jim Gartenberg video

The perfect human interest story for the boob tube addicted American public.

But the MSM ABC anchors dropped it like a hot potato. Why?

Great initial enthusiasm from the media reporters, with a trapped coherent and quite calm victim on the 86th floor of WTC 1 with a good cell phone connection. Jim was willing to talk, calmly taking time to reassure other familes who might have loved ones trapped in WTC1 and who might be tuning in to ABC. Jim specifically attempted to describe clearly what he had experienced and witnessed. Don't forget Jim and Patricia Puma were trapped on floor 86, 8 floors below the impact at floors 94 to 98. And the core of each tower was immensely strong, constructed with huge structural steel girders upon which burning fuel would be like a puff of smoke.
Photos of Remains of the Twin Towers in Hanger 17 - Core columns

From the video

Jim: . . . . part of the core of the building is blown out . . .

. . . . . . .

Female anchor: What time did you get to work?

Jim: I got to work around 8 o'clock this morning, and . . I think this happened about 8:45.

Female anchor: It did. Describe what you felt.

Jim: I felt .. eh .. I felt . . just the whole build .. I heard a noise, felt the building shake, saw glass blown out.
The glass on my floor was blown out from the inside of the building out; rather than the exterior windows being blown out.

Female anchor: What were you

Jim: the glass fully shattered with the core of the building .. ehh .. and the interior core, ehh part of the building collapsed.

Female anchor: SILENCE
Male anchor: SILENCE

Jim: hello

Complete loss of interest by the male and female anchors even though Jim can still be heard faintly talking in the background. The b***ards must have turned the sound down. They could have had a nice long interview with him until either his cell phone died or the building fell 53 minutes later. But they didn't give a damn did they? A whole bunch of information about the building and the fires and possible explosions might have been learned, but I guess they wanted no part of any of that. Two people trapped on the 86th floor would at least have had caring human support through their tribulation, but these two a**hole ABC anchors just did not give a sh*t did they?

So some dead men did tell tales.

And maybe these uncaring ABC reporters could have sent Jim and a few others up to the roof somehow, around the blocked fire doors down, and arranged to have security release the roof locks and arranged a rooftop rescue. They had 53 minutes to accomplish it. But no; silence Jim. Ignore him. Don't try to rescue him. Don't try to get firefighters to him on the 86th floor. Wouldn't the maximum information obtained from calm, cool, and collected Jim Gartenberg be valuable towards rescue efforts? But no; not this time. Get rid of Jim. Find something more important to report like traffic conditions.

Surely there were other reporters available already reporting on traffic conditions and weather conditions and school closings weren't there? Wasn't so-and-so movie star cheating on his wife during 9-11? Gotta be more important than Jim Gartenberg trapped on the 86th floor of the North Tower.

But living men tell tales don't they? And Jim witnessed the North Tower core blown from the inside out, didn't he? And the 9-11 perps certainly did not want that tale escaping the WTC did they?

God forbid if Jim Gartenberg or Patricia Puma or somebody else trapped on the 86th floor actually had a camera and photos of the blown-out core section. Leave them there. And get them off the air and talk about something else.

Dead men tell no tales.



[edit on 7/25/09 by SPreston]

reply to post by SPreston


From where did you copy/paste most of that prose?

I don't see any tags attributing it to source.

BUT, perhaps you've been taking journalism writing classes at night school?

reply to post by SPreston


It sickens me it really does, from the time I was watching the whole event live on T.V. seeing people jumping up to and including now, with random members of the general public trying to protect a twisted and ruthless governing regime.

No matter what way you look at this - The only chance of survival those had whom were trapped above the impact zone was the roof, why dear God was this chance not even attempted, we had hundreds of rescue people die trying to save lives below, yet not one risking of lives involved trying helicopter rescues, something they are expertly trained in - neglected. WHY?.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by SPreston

 

From where did you copy/paste most of that prose?

I don't see any tags attributing it to source.

BUT, perhaps you've been taking journalism writing classes at night school?

Why not personally e-mail G.W.Bush and get the relative information re rooftop rescues (or the lack of) from him?.

posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by SPreston

 

From where did you copy/paste most of that prose?

I don't see any tags attributing it to source.

BUT, perhaps you've been taking journalism writing classes at night school?

You didn't follow the link whacker? I need to assign copyright source to myself?

WTC Victim Gartenberg Live On ABC

reply to post by SPreston

That video, as soon as the guy mentioned the core was damaged he was ignored and the male anchor went on with the more important task of depicting traffic problems on a bridge, Jesus F. Christ.

Cell phones can take photos and record videos don`t they!!!.

FDNY and the NYPD had an arrangement of how to deal with rooftop rescues, a joint venture, not enforced, people with cell phones - alive - evidence - blocked by central locking doors - cell phones - pictures - videos - roof tops - helicopters

We can only hope that all of this will be covered in a new investigation.

It would be extremely dangerous to land a helicopter on the roof of a burning building due to the updrafts and smoke caused by the fire. The smoke alone can choke out the engine causing it to stall from lack of oxygen. Besides this, did anyone make it to the roof? If there was clear passage to the roof and there were a number of people on it then you have the added danger of them swarming the helicopter in a panic. Very bad idea to try and land there.

There's at least one video floating around shot from a news chopper flying near to the WTC1 roof and there's no-one up there - also has a lot of obstacles like antennas up there to prevent any landing. WTC2 did have a helipad but I believe it was totally obscured from the air by the smoke plume from WTC1 so it probably comes down to how many choppers and crews you're prepared to lose in the wake of the existing disaster which was destined to get worse (that was an unknown at that time IE pre-collapse).

Maybe someone has some info on what suitably equipped choppers and crews to attempt such a rescue were available at very short notice in the NYC area remembering that WTC2 only stood for less than an hour after the plane struck it.

[edit on 25/7/2009 by Pilgrum]

reply to post by defcon5

Besides this, did anyone make it to the roof?

It has been pointed out that roof access was restricted. It was not available without proper clearance, and it certainly was never considered part of any emergency evac plan for the building, either.

Originally posted by defcon5
It would be extremely dangerous to land a helicopter on the roof of a burning building due to the updrafts and smoke caused by the fire. The smoke alone can choke out the engine causing it to stall from lack of oxygen. Besides this, did anyone make it to the roof? If there was clear passage to the roof and there were a number of people on it then you have the added danger of them swarming the helicopter in a panic. Very bad idea to try and land there.

You do not have to land a helicopter to rescue people, also as is the norm rescue personal are extremely well trained, and let`s not forget when fireman managed to get as high as the 78th floor there were two isolated pockets of fire, that could be knocked down with two lines.

Military helicopters can lift around 11 tonnes there was a time span of over 1 hour 24 minutes from initial impact to collapse, there was a light northerly wind keeping the north area relatively free from smoke.

WHEN a plane hit the World Trade Center's north tower, Stephen L. Roach phoned his wife twice from the 105th floor and got their home answering machine. In one message, he said he loved her. In the other, Isabel Roach says she could hear the desperate shouts of her husband's coworkers at bond-broker Cantor Fitzgerald LP: "Try the roof! Try the roof!" Mr. Roach shouted back to them, "There's no way out!"

If he was referring to a roof escape, he was correct. The doors to the roof were locked. Outside, hovering just a few hundred feet away from hundreds of workers trapped above the inferno, were New York police-rescue helicopters. Crews from the Brooklyn headquarters of the police-aviation bureau had scrambled at the first radio call of an explosion at the trade center. Of the two choppers that arrived within five minutes of the plane crash, one was a Bell 412 equipped with a 250-foot hoist and capable of carrying as many as 10 survivors at a time. The three-man crew was specially trained for rooftop rescues.

As the police pilots swooped in and peered through a smoke-free area on top of the north tower, however, they saw no one to save. People were still alive on the top floors, according to the New York Fire Department. But Greg Semendinger, the first chopper pilot on the scene, says, "There was nobody on the roof."

[quote\]

Why where there no people on the roof?.

[edit on 16/07/2009 by Seventh]

[edit on 16/07/2009 by Seventh]

reply to post by Seventh

Cell phones can take photos and record videos don`t they!!!.

I don't think cell phone cameras which were invented in 1997 and not commercially available in the US until 2002, were very likely in 2001. Maybe a few. However lots of people carried small instamatic cameras on their persons and in their purses in 2001 and in their desks.

Under close questioning by experienced architects and structural engineers, Jim Gartenberg might have explained exactly what he meant by "The glass on my floor was blown out from the inside of the building out; rather than the exterior windows being blown out." and "the glass fully shattered with the core of the building .. ehh .. and the interior core, ehh part of the building collapsed."

Might have been a nightmare for the 9-11 perps. Much much better for them that Jim Gartenberg and others on the 86th floor of the North Tower perish. Much much better for the ABC reporters to tune him out and turn to less important and lesser viewer interest news reports like traffic conditions, during a major catastrophe while they already had a trapped North Tower survivor live on the line.

Possibly firefighters could have opened the blocked fire doors on the 86th floor with 53 minutes available, if the ABC reporters had coordinated efforts. But apparently the ABC reporters were ordered to cease and desist. I wonder if they sleep at night.

Right when Jim was explaining how the elevators were blown out and a shaftway between, was when the ABC reporters totally censored him and went off to something else.





[edit on 7/25/09 by SPreston]

reply to post by Seventh

Why where there no people on the roof?.

TRAPPED?

Deliberately blocked by locked rooftop doors controlled from the security office?

reply to post by SPreston


Agree 100% Jim Gartenberg could have proved very dangerous as could the other 700 still alive at the time trapped people, interesting angle to research though, so far we know there was at least one helicopter at the scene with roof top rescue trained personal and equipment including a cradle, which again really does negate the whole `Roof tops are a complete no-no fire escape route, hence all the doors automatically locked` scenario, so anyone trying to debunk this thread from that angle... think again.

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by Seventh

 

Why where there no people on the roof?.

TRAPPED?

Deliberately blocked by locked rooftop doors controlled from the security office?

I know this only to well bud, I also know the excuse for not opening the doors, on the initial impact the mechanism that operated the doors was destroyed, this storey was the 22nd floor, amazing once again the sheer velocity of a plane and the damage it causes to a building built to withstand hurricanes - a design intended and by all accounts works very well against all this via absorbing the shock due to certain degrees of flexibility.

reply to post by Seventh


If these guys could have rescued just one person off the North Tower roof as they were trained to. Or perhaps many if just the door had been unlocked. But then officials were sending people back into the tower weren't they at first, telling them it was safe?

one was a Bell 412 equipped with a 250-foot hoist and capable of carrying as many as 10 survivors at a time. The three-man crew was specially trained for rooftop rescues.

102 Minutes

And of course Jim Gartenberg was on the 86th floor of the North Tower. And Jim and Patricia Puma were alive and communicating with somebody on the outside. Apparently security could have remotely released the rooftop doorlocks. What would have been the harm? The highly trained police helicopter rooftop rescue teams hovering above the towers, had already spotted an upwind area on the North Tower roof free of smoke; but nobody could get through the locked doors. I wonder how many TRAPPED people were pounding on and struggling with those locked doors?

And brave Edna Cintron was alive and well on the 94th floor waving for rescue. Maybe rooftop rescuers could have come down sixteen floors through an unlocked door and rescued her too.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/09cd366befaf.jpg[/atsimg]

But they were all expendable weren't they?

"Try the roof! Try the roof!" Mr. Roach shouted back to them, "There's no way out!"

If he was referring to a roof escape, he was correct. The doors to the roof were locked. Outside, hovering just a few hundred feet away from hundreds of workers trapped above the inferno, were New York police-rescue helicopters. Crews from the Brooklyn headquarters of the police-aviation bureau had scrambled at the first radio call of an explosion at the trade center. Of the two choppers that arrived within five minutes of the plane crash, one was a Bell 412 equipped with a 250-foot hoist and capable of carrying as many as 10 survivors at a time. The three-man crew was specially trained for rooftop rescues.

As the police pilots swooped in and peered through a smoke-free area on top of the north tower, however, they saw no one to save. People were still alive on the top floors, according to the New York Fire Department. But Greg Semendinger, the first chopper pilot on the scene, says, "There was nobody on the roof."

Earlier Rescue

Dangerous as it sounds, this kind of airborne mission can succeed. In 1993, Mr. Semendinger had helped rescue 28 people from the roof of the same north tower. A terrorist bomb had exploded in the trade center's basement garage, sending thick smoke up through the stairwells. That time, a police chopper piloted by Mr. Semendinger had lowered two men by rope to the roof. They cut down antennas to clear a landing area from which the workers were airlifted to safety.

Tough Challenge

On Sept. 11, a rescue from the north tower would have been difficult but possible, Mr. Semendinger and other veteran helicopter-rescue pilots say. The first building hit by a hijacked plane, at 8:48 a.m., the north tower was the second to collapse, one hour and 45 minutes later. Records of calls to 911 operators, first reported by the New York Daily News, show that people on the top floors were seeking help at least until 10:12 a.m., one hour and 24 minutes after the strike. With fire raging on the floors below them, they had no hope of walking down to safety.

Whether even a few of those lives could have been saved by a roof rescue isn't clear. Climbing staircases rapidly filling with smoke could have been tough. The plane's impact might have knocked stairway doors out of alignment, making them impassible, regardless of whether they were locked. The intense smoke and forest of rooftop antennas made landing a helicopter impossible. Rescuers also could have had trouble if a crowd of workers turned into a desperate mob, competing to get off the roof.

But Mr. Semendinger says the wind that morning did leave a corner of the tower relatively clear of smoke, almost until the building collapsed. Using a hoist with folding seats, rescuers could have saved as many as a few dozen people, he estimates.

911research.wtc7.net...

Originally posted by Pilgrum
Maybe someone has some info on what suitably equipped choppers and crews to attempt such a rescue were available at very short notice in the NYC area remembering that WTC2 only stood for less than an hour after the plane struck it.

[edit on 25/7/2009 by Pilgrum]

Crews from the Brooklyn headquarters of the police-aviation bureau had scrambled at the first radio call of an explosion at the trade center. Of the two choppers that arrived within five minutes of the plane crash, one was a Bell 412 equipped with a 250-foot hoist and capable of carrying as many as 10 survivors at a time. The three-man crew was specially trained for rooftop rescues.

As the police pilots swooped in and peered through a smoke-free area on top of the north tower, however, they saw no one to save. People were still alive on the top floors, according to the New York Fire Department. But Greg Semendinger, the first chopper pilot on the scene, says, "There was nobody on the roof."


Proof a helicopter equipped and manned for roof top rescues was there within 5 minutes, we also know the north edge of the roof was safe for rescues, now i`m gonna put my neck on the line here and state the blatantly obvious, that at least one of the helicopter rescue crew asked `Why are people jumping to their deaths, and not trying to get to the roof top, where we can save them`. What do you believe the reply to that question was?.