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reply to post by jfj123
an alternative cc creation hypothesis which in the final analysis may or may not prove to be the correct one ...
And all I'm saying that it is no more valid then my Giant, flying, invisible, purple wombat hypothesis.
but irrespective, have done so basing it on ONLY currently available technology
You can't say that because you've been asked to produce said current technology and you've refused over and over.
This is far more than can be said for alien involvement with it's ZERO supporting evidence
Agreed.
OR rope & plank involvement with it's ZERO completed analysis of a SINGLE complex crop circle design and execution in it's entirety.
Incorrect. This info has been posted many times. And NO I'm not going to post it again. I've done so, and many others have done so. If you want to see it, go back in the thread and read it for yourself.
Those adhering to the rope & plank dogma continuously regurgitate the same old tired cliches as to how SIMPLE and EASY it MUST be.
It is.
After all, the cc is plainly there on the ground and say to themselves, "how easy that must be to make ... a circle here ... a line there ... and viola, a crop circle is born !".
Although simplified, this is correct.
You're continuously asking for proof ... let's momentarily turn the tables and let ME ask you to pull out a detailed analysis of just what it takes to turn an idea in someone's head into a full blown, 100's of square meters, complex and complicated graphic "etched" into a wheat field.
This info has been posted many times. I'm not going to post it again. Re-read the thread and find it for yourself.
- how the graphic is surveyed and plotted onto the crop
Done.
- evidence that a board DOES indeed crush and compress wheat stalks in such a fashion
Done.
- how individual members communicate when working on different sections of the design
Done.
- how undulating terrain is factored into the initial design
Done.
In addition, my hypothesis offers an explanation of HOW the wheat is
crushed and compressed;
So does my wombat hypothesis
it explains HOW the intricate graphics process is controlled;
Please explain this.
reply to post by jfj123
it explains WHY glowing "balls" are occasionally spotted;
What technology would create glowing balls and under what conditions are they created? What are the glowing balls made of?
it explains WHY no one has EVER been caught in the process of cc creation;
People have been caught. This has also been posted.
it explains the INCREASING sophistication of the designs;
So does a guy who practices his designs and wants to improve upon them. I get better each time I begin a new painting.
it explains HOW intricate cc's are created so quickly ... and more ....
With a decent team, I can build an entire house in 3 days from beginning to end. That's a bit harder then creating a crop circle in a couple of hours.
The DPD operates by creating a plasma directly adjacent to the target, and then detonates the plasma resulting in an explosive force being applied to the target structure.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Can do ...
I believe that we can both agree that the military does indeed have space launch,
delivery and operating capabilities and for the purpose of this post of mine, need not be debated further.
However, to establish the plausability of the hypothesis that man-made technology is the main effecting agent of crop circle designs, we need to establish that the 2 main components critical to the plausability of the hypothesis currently DO exist in some form or other and are potentially capable of creating the observed effects. These critical components consist of the following:
(1) the energy beam generating technology
(2) the control and tracking software of the beam itself
(1) The energy beam generating technology
The principle involved here is one whereby a high intensity laser pulse (not necessarily in the visible light spectrum) is used to ionize air directly infront of (OR DIRECTLY ABOVE) the target by rapidly superheating it and effectively creating a region of plasma. This plasma region is then "detonated" by a 2nd laser pulse resulting in a rapid expansion of the surrounding air.
Such technology EXISTS and is being developed based on a grant originating from the WhiteHouse "Office of Management and Budget" involving at least one recipient, namely Stellar Photonics.
Description:
Dynamic Pulse Detonation: Explore a phenomenon referred to as Dynamic Pulse detonation which involves the creation of high intensity impulse forces by detonating laser induced plasmas.
Quotes:
"The system works by producing non-lethal plasmas in front of a target. The plasma is generated by a laser superheating the air in front of a target causing rapid expansion ..."
The US Army hopes, within a few years, to deploy a plasma shield - a machine that generates a protective screen of dazzling mid-air explosions - to stun and disorient an enemy.
Plasma is typically an ionized gas and is usually considered to be a distinct state of matter in contrast to gases because of its unique properties.
Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons.
The device uses a technology known as dynamic pulse detonation (DPD). A short but intense laser pulse creates a ball of plasma and a second laser pulse generates a supersonic shockwave with the plasma to generate a bright flash and a loud bang.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
but irrespective, have done so basing it on ONLY currently available technology
You can't say that because you've been asked to produce said current technology and you've refused over and over.
Evidence for said current technology now provided.
OR rope & plank involvement with it's ZERO completed analysis of a SINGLE complex crop circle design and execution in it's entirety.
Incorrect. This info has been posted many times. And NO I'm not going to post it again. I've done so, and many others have done so. If you want to see it, go back in the thread and read it for yourself.
No ... you have NOT provided what I requested which was to pick a very complex crop circle design and then provide a DETAILED analysis/breakdown of the logistics involved in taking the original paper design (assuming there must have been one) all the way thru to the completed product.
That means EXPLAINING how every line, every circle, every angle for that cc was surveyed, plotted and physically laid down
... how communication between members was conducted ...
how error checking/correction was catered for ...
how the low light conditions were handled,
etc because if you can't fully EXPLAIN and in DETAIL the creation process to someone else, then that means you don't fully UNDERSTAND it yourself.
Those adhering to the rope & plank dogma continuously regurgitate the same old tired cliches as to how SIMPLE and EASY it MUST be.
Then you'll have NO probs in explaining in detail (see my response immediately above)
After all, the cc is plainly there on the ground and say to themselves, "how easy that must be to make ... a circle here ... a line there ... and viola, a crop circle is born !".
Although simplified, this is correct.
Again, see my response above
You're continuously asking for proof ... let's momentarily turn the tables and let ME ask you to pull out a detailed analysis of just what it takes to turn an idea in someone's head into a full blown, 100's of square meters, complex and complicated graphic "etched" into a wheat field.
Have reread and nothing close to what I'm asking.
Let me try again because I'm obviously NOT making myself clear.
You and your other group members are now standng in the middle of a wheat field ... it's pitch dark ... you've brought equipment with you ... you have a design on a sheet of paper.
Now, tell me EXACTLY (step by step) how you intend to transfer the paper design to the wheat itself and what logistical problems you'll be faced with and how you overcome them.
how the graphic is surveyed and plotted onto the crop
Not done ... see above
- evidence that a board DOES indeed crush and compress wheat stalks in such a fashion
Done.
Not done ... see above
- how individual members communicate when working on different sections of the design
Done.
Not done ... see above
- how undulating terrain is factored into the initial design
Done.
Not done ... see above
"A theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation."
"The hypothesis of the big bang is one way to explain the beginning of the universe."
Instead of you responding by breaking apart every one of my statements, why don't you simply give us a few lines whereby you state categorically YES or NO that such technology could or could not possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design.
If your answer is NO, then explain citing sources.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
and then I'll leave you to continue with your black/white, yes/no belief that the ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Due to the fact that it's documented technology, it immediately makes it a better contender than the "aliens did it" school of thought.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And also because not a SINGLE complex crop circle design has EVER been demonstrated and constructed out in the open and in front of the public and media, makes the "rope & board" theory NO better a solution then the one I proposed.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Note that I'm not referring to a basic cc being demonstrated as I know they have, I'm talking about a highly detailed and complex cc being created right there and then infront of witnesses.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
In fact, when you stop to consider, virtually EVERYTHING relating to complex crop circle design using a rope & board is based on nothing more than guesswork and assumption.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
At this point I'll bring up the question of the "Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009" difficulty of construction once again and ask why you totally ignored any attempt at explaining the documented logistical construction issues inherent in this site. Is it because the "rope & board" explanation immediately becomes obviously and ludicrously inadequate ?
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Oh, by the way, your considered and expert analysis of a possible Clatford crop circle construction technique would be invaluable I'm sure to not only myself, but all other cc followers.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And please remember what you stated a while back ... ALL cc's are ridiculously simple to construct when you know how. So you should be able to knock up a convincing explanation without even breaking a sweat !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
The fact that we don't know ALL of the DPD's operational capabilities and performance specs (after all, it IS military hardware and they're not usually too forthcoming with every last detail) does NOT disqualify it from remaining a valid contender.
There abound many past examples of instances where the military has developed some revolutionary technology and only released the bare minimum of it's FULL operational capabilities or construction details to the
general public.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by jfj123
Look ... I'm going to say this one last time for your benfit and that of other posters to this thread ... and then I'll leave you to continue with your black/white, yes/no belief that the ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank.
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.
First, let me give you one of the definitions of "hypothesis":
"A theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation."
"The hypothesis of the big bang is one way to explain the beginning of the universe."
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by jfj123
As a final word, let's make this real simple and straightforward, shall we ?
Instead of you responding by breaking apart every one of my statements, why don't you simply give us a few lines whereby you state categorically YES or NO that such technology could or could not possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design.
If your answer is NO, then explain citing sources.
Well, so much for my simple request above to you to give a clear yes/no, black/white answer to my question whether
"such technology COULD or COULD NOT possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design
So what happens instead, you go back into "breakdown and analyze" mode.
Look, how simple do I have to put it to you ?
Let me therefore break it into 2 simpler questions ... now pay attention, please.
"Do you or do you not believe that technology as described previously can be used to MANIPULATE the ORIENTATION of plant stalks ?" YES/NO
"Do you or do you not believe that technology as described previously could POTENTIALLY be used to create a crop circle TYPE of design ?" YES/NO
Oh, and by the way, the "Big Bang" is a hypothesis based on the following definition:
"As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena."
The last time I looked, BB had NOT been "tested and confirmed" and therefore remains a HYPOTHESIS ... so unless you know something the rest of us don't ... hmmmmm ??
[edit on 5-8-2009 by afoolbyanyothername]
The fact that you think "rope & plank" is the only way WE think crop circles can be made is ridiculously idiotic.
There is already documented cases where people use rollers, and body weight.
They can use heavy truck wheels that have been rigged to a handle bar, so they can push them around. They can even use chemicals that structurally weaken the crops and make them lay down on their own. There is actually unlimited ways they could be made by man.
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.
You actually think there is only 3 options.. You should just stop talking now, your mind is actually so closed that you believe your mind is open, thats BAD.
Due to the fact that it's documented technology, it immediately makes it a better contender than the "aliens did it" school of thought.
Nobody cares if "man" made crop circles with technology. The reason crop circles are popular is because people think "aliens" did it, and they believe there is messages in them.
Since the crop circles are man-made, NOBODY CARES! Even if it was made with advanced technology, NOBODY CARES. There is no useful knowledge or information in crop circles. I'm not saying there is no information or messages in some of them, I'm saying there is nothing you can't find on the internet in them (nothing important).
I used to work at a machine shop, and we would cut thick steel plates into any pattern we wish with lasers. Heck we even cut steel with water. It is basically a laser printer you can buy for your own home for less than 100$, except with a more powerful laser.
WHO CARES if they can do it from space... (they can't yet).
And just so you know, technology like that will not only be insanely detectable with ordinary heat sensing tools, and other tools, but it would also be visible from the ground with the naked eye, and especially telescopes.
Face it, there is no microwave/laser technology making designs in crops. Not only would it be costly and irresponsible, but if they wanted to keep it a secret, the last thing they would do is use to make pointless meaningless designs in crops.
Go ahead and call me close minded, but I am the exact opposite. I am so open minded that I already thought about that idea, but I also can even see how stupid that idea is compared to other ideas available.
You are comparing Pacasso to Da Vinci.
Note that I'm not referring to a basic cc being demonstrated as I know they have, I'm talking about a highly detailed and complex cc being created right there and then infront of witnesses.
I can turn this around, all based on opinion.
Show me ONE "highly detailed and complex cc", BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE.
All the crop circles I have ever seen are NOT complex, or detailed..
I am a graphic artist, and all crop circles look to me like child's play. Actually most crop circles are all elementary level 2D graphics design that any entry level fool can make using primitive shapes
In fact, when you stop to consider, virtually EVERYTHING relating to complex crop circle design using a rope & board is based on nothing more than guesswork and assumption.
Actually almost every single crop circle I have ever seen can be measured and plotted using a simple rope for measurement. I can prove that too...
At this point I'll bring up the question of the "Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009" difficulty of construction once again and ask why you totally ignored any attempt at explaining the documented logistical construction issues inherent in this site. Is it because the "rope & board" explanation immediately becomes obviously and ludicrously inadequate ?
I hope you are talking about the crop circle I think you are talking about. The one that looks like a funny stick figure man. LOL stick figure man.......
OMG it so difficult to make a stick figure man in crops! LOL.
Oh, by the way, your considered and expert analysis of a possible Clatford crop circle construction technique would be invaluable I'm sure to not only myself, but all other cc followers.
I guess I missed it? Why do you think it is so difficult? I'll have to reread some posts... but at first glance, the crop circle you are talking about looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible.
And please remember what you stated a while back ... ALL cc's are ridiculously simple to construct when you know how. So you should be able to knock up a convincing explanation without even breaking a sweat !
After looking at it.. all I see is circles, arcs, and lines.. All of which you only need a rope to measure and plot.
This is a theoretical weapons system that is not exactly directional. In other words, the system ignites a ball of gas which rapidly expands in all directions and not uni-directionally.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Whether I use the term "rope & plank" or "rope & roller" or "rope & whatever" is nothing but symantics and pedantic on your part. The "basic" principle remains the same ... someone manually using some DEVICE to depress and flatten the wheat.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
See my response above ... but basically another mediocre response on your part.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
"Nobody cares ... ???????" Seriously ???? What crap !! I'm sure there are untold numbers of cc followers worldwide that in fact do give a "faecal excrement" as to exactly HOW cc's are made.
What a ridiculous and thoughtless statement, indeed !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And now you're professing to be an expert on all matters space related and what can and can't be done from space !!
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
So, what part of DPD technology would be detectable with "ordinary" heat sensing tools ? Why visible ... a UV laser is INVISIBLE. Anyway, perfect opportunity for you to cite your sources !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Stupid compared to what ??? Aliens, perhaps ?? No, then what about compared to your earlier suggestion of using "body weight" to flatten the crops ? Excuse me a sec whilst I piss myself laughing imaging a bunch of people rolling around on the ground, in a field, in the dark, and creating a work of art at the end of it .... oh, my !!!!!!
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Errrr ... I do hope you realise that Pablo Picasso and Da Vinci were BOTH geniuses in their own rights ... so I'm confused regarding this non-sensical comparison of yours.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Tell me something ... do you NOT read cc posts being made here in ATS where many are absolutely astonished and delighted at the COMPLEXITY of the latest cc's ?
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Tell me something else now ... do you consider that you've mastered the art of verbalising inane and illogical statements ? I certainly think you have !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
The vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue how to start, manage and complete a detailed and complex design in a field of crops ... so I guess they must be even BIGGER fools then you give them credit for !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Get it into your head that there is a world of difference between sitting infront of your pc screen and using Paint or whatever to doodle away with primitives such as circles, lines and other geometrical shapes so of course it would look like child's play... BUT actually standing in the middle of a field in almost total darkness and trying to reproduce your pc design to a vastly bigger scale is not something I would now label as "child's play".
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by ALLis0NE
Measured and plotted using a simple rope ?? Ok, now my "bunkum" meter has just gone completely off scale with that statement of yours !
You must be completely deluding yourself to imagine that's all it takes ... but I'll tell you what, let's all give you the benefit of the doubt as we say "PROVE IT" !!
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And yet another ridiculous statement and conclusion on your part. The cc in NO way resembles a "stick figure man".
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Obviously you missed a lot of things ... and most importantly, you appear to have missed in the article the considered opinion and analysis of a 12 year cc "veteran" who states categorically that the designers would have encountered numerous and significant logistical challenges (plus miserable weather conditions) in the execution of this cc. Try reading his description of how one part of the cc starts on the side of a hill, continues to the top of the hill, and then finishes down on the opposite side of the hill.
Total length in excess of 800 feet ... no visible line of sight from one side of the hill to the other side ... and many more logistical nightmares.
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And yet up you pop and declare "... looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible."
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And obviously you're speaking as one who's had considerable experience drawing circles, arc and lines in the middle of a field and in the dark !
Whoops ... there goes my "bunkum meter" again !
Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
So, just reading back through my responses and to be quite truthfull, I'm beginning to wonder why I even bothered.
You've made some of the most silly, ridiculous, badly thought out statements and comments that I've come across ... and frankly, I expected a much better response from you.