Lynndie England (aka the sadistic woman in Iraqi abuse photos)

Do not forget, we were there to liberate them from this kind of oppression.
Plus, I would not be surprised if they were forced to fight, by having someone hold guns to their families' heads.
Anyway, stories of the American bombing of Iraqi children and families spread quickly, and I dare say this would have been a factor. These people were fighting for their lives, their wives' lives, their children's lives not for Saddam.

We definitely should not be doing the thing we were there to get rid of.

Hi

No US Servicemember will be tried on Television for another OJ Simpson type trial to entertain the sad lifeless members of society who need to live life through the excitement of others. Sorry Entertainment Tonight, sorry E!, sorry Enquirer and Mirror and Al-Jazeera.

I think she should be held accountable, but just as much, if not more, those in the intelligance areas that encouraged what she and the others did to "soften the captives up for interrogation". More than likely it will mostly be the scapegoats... I mean solders.

"Oh please tell us your comanders battle plans or we will be forced to only give you two meals a day instead of three!" Give me a break! War is hell. If it wasn't hell then we would call it "Happy Fun Time!'

I dont agree with the extremes they (the American and British troops) went too but I also think it is up to the Court Martial to deside punishment. All this "she deserves death!" is stupid.

I wonder how many solders lives were saved based on the inforamion gathered at these interogations?

On the same coin and looking at the other side of it I also wonder how many solders will die because of this being in the publics' eye.

Originally posted by Bleys
You're right, it's all her fault. She stripped those men down and took those pictures all by her lonesome without anyone else being involved. That is one talented broad.

Oh I forgot to mention that the other should be hung as well. And as well she didn't look like she was forced to be on the photographs.
She was even smiling.

And....who needs a special training to treat people like humans? Some of you guys are always bringing forward they weren't trained to handle POWs - what the mumu?! - if you don't know it, lock them up and don't care but don't play any games like that.

Those soldiers are pieces of #. They aren't alone, we all know that. All nations have those retards but it's time that we all show it's not our nature to do that!

'Tell me your plans or I'll make you rape me'
How does that help? If anything it will stiffen resistance )no pun intended).
Hang her. And the rest of them.

Originally posted by Pisky
True, Browho, thats exactly the kind of mindset we have to deal with here. The Nazi's tried to justify what they did - I expect that she will try the same.

What's actually discusting is that I remember interview with guards of german concentration camps after the war, and some of them mentioned as well they didn't know how to handle the prisoners, they never learned it...and had a bad childhood anyway etc etc - I hate such parallels but they are present

Originally posted by shoo

Originally posted by Bleys
You're right, it's all her fault. She stripped those men down and took those pictures all by her lonesome without anyone else being involved. That is one talented broad.

Oh I forgot to mention that the other should be hung as well. And as well she didn't look like she was forced to be on the photographs.
She was even smiling.

And....who needs a special training to treat people like humans? Some of you guys are always bringing forward they weren't trained to handle POWs - what the mumu?! - if you don't know it, lock them up and don't care but don't play any games like that.

Those soldiers are pieces of #. They aren't alone, we all know that. All nations have those retards but it's time that we all show it's not our nature to do that!

Thank you for the clarification.

I also agree with you that just because these MPs were not trained to handle POWs is no excuse. An MP, under no circumstance has any right to interrogate, punish, or humiliate a person in their custody. (that's the CIAs job) It wouldn't fly in the states and it shouldn't fly there. My personal opinion in the matter is punish everyone from the CO in charge of the prison down to the perpetrators themselves. Making an example of them through courtmartial will serve as a deterent.

True, Browho, thats exactly the kind of mindset we have to deal with here. The Nazi's tried to justify what they did - I expect that she will try the same.
Fortunately we also know what happened to some of the Nazi high-ups (Say hello to Mr Pierrepoint). I wonder if Bumsfelt and the others will get the same treatment ? Somehow I doubt it.


Two different situations. In the case of the Nazis, if you didn't follow orders, you were imprisoned, executed, or even worse, your family was also executed. That's not the case here. Those soldiers should be dealt with. Anyone who was in the military knows how they should treat POW's, especially trained MP's. The problem may lie ion the fact that they were reservists, not professional soldiers.

(And I play once again the devil advocate)...

Bush knew for the tortures and humiliation in Iraq. He had been warned of the situation by a report from the defense secretary (RUMSFELD). It was in the begining January... We are in May... Five mounth... Silent is consent...

Anyway, I'm not sure the case of Lynn England is an isolated case. But for the others cases : No pictures, no proofs...

I'm not sure it's time to lynch Lynn. SMA is right, war is not a nice thing, and american soldiers have the nerves sensitives there. They hear about bombing and attacks everyday. Everyday they have some companions killed...

Of course, it's not an excuse. These threatements are inhuman and degrading. But if you really want to see these kinds of situations stop one day, you have to attack the problem to the source. Who gave the orders, who let the soldiers do thing like that, if it's not encouraged by some hierachy, to make prisonners depress and to collect some informations ? Why BUSH, RUMSFELD etc... let such things happen for mounth, when the knew ? Who are really responsibles ?

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Nans DESMICHELS]

Thinking about it a bit more - I don't know what war can make you do.

I mean, if you aren't prepared for anything you might get a psycholigic break, even if you are a damn nice person normally.
I guess it is something psychologists have to decide. If war broke them, it would be fatal to put all blame on them. Then we have a general problem in the army, I guess it is a bit of everything.

Ms. England is currently 4 month pregnant and hiding in Fort Bragg, she is refusing to leave the base, for fear of the media attention she will receive. I feel really bad for her family though, who now has to deal with the attention here

Family Says Reservist Shown in Prison Photos Was Following Orders
Family members of an Army reservist shown in photographs humiliating Iraqi prisoners insist she was following orders when she pointed at naked inmates and held a leash attached to a man's neck.
Spc. Lynndie England, 21, is seen smiling for the camera in one picture, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi. Another photo shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side on a cellblock floor, his face contorted.

"I don't believe my sister did what was in those photos," her sister Jessica Kleinstiver said at a news conference in this West Virginia community, about 240 miles northeast of Charleston.

"Certain people told her what to do. I believe they were posed," Kleinstiver said.

England has not been charged. She has transferred to Fort Bragg, N.C., where England has declined to leave the base because she does not want media attention, her sister said.

After photos from the Abu Ghraib prison were beamed around the globe, reporters flocked to Fort Ashby, a town of 1,300 people where England's extended family lives in a trailer park. England's parents left town Thursday to escape the attention.

The family's lawyer, Roy Hardy, said he arranged the news conference to relieve family members from constant media pressure.

"No one has the full story of what was going on in those pictures," Hardy said. "They don't show what was behind her, beside her or what was going on behind the scenes.

"When all this comes to light, she will not be depicted the way she's being depicted right now," he said.

England's family has said she was a "paper pusher" in Iraq who processed inmates and only went to the prison to visit friends who worked there.

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a high school junior to earn money for college.

"I think she's being picked on and being used as a scapegoat," Klinestiver said. "I don't know why they're showing her so much when she hasn't been charged."

England is four months' pregnant with the child of Spc. Charles Graner, another member of the 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md.

Graner faces a possible court-martial on criminal charges of maltreatment and indecent acts, according to his attorney, Guy Womack.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

"I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being," Hardy told reporters.

Well, whether or not she is convicted, the damage is done to her reputation.

Thank you, Zeddicus, for clarifying something .


I am never one to believe in such a thing as high moral ground. There is no such thing.

The things the Iraqi torture guards did to our troops and others pretty much blows the whole "Islamic torture practices" thing out of the water.

As for Ms England, well,......who knows? She aint alone, thats for sure, the others certainly should be tried along side her. Sodomizing a prisoner with a broom handle is pretty nasty biz. I dont recall that practice in my interrogation manual. I reserve that for my handbook of "field expeidient revenge".

My question is, what was the nature of these prisoners? Were they simply forced fighters, all of them, who surrendered to the US army? or were they suspects and Feydakin that were captured in the act of doing something naughty, like bombing convoys and taking hostages? This is important.

Because oif they were the average Joe who was forced at gun point to fight under saddam, then yeah, this # is uncalled for, those folks should have been released at the end of the war to go back home.

However, if they were terrorists who were bombing and killing, Baathists, foreignfighters, ect, then all bets are off, my sympathy has just dissipated, and they should feel privilaged that it was Ms England in there tormenting them instead of me, because if it was me and those were rat bastard terrorists, Id be doing ALOT worse to them. It would have taken them 6 months to die, and they would be begging for death every moment of it.

If the woman in the photos was following orders, I'm wondering who's orders? I also don't know why someone would be posing for the camera in all these bad photos without some directive from someone. If as Rumsfeld stated on the news that there is video and alot more worse pics, then who started all of this? I believe those are questions we all want to know.

I'm also wondering if CBS bears some responsibility for releasing the photos during the middle of very active Iraqi conflicts that could have or will cost American lives. I've noticed CBS reporting what appears to me to be more bias news than say like ABC and maybe they thought this would be a way to embarass the Bush Administration without regard for American lives fighting overseas.

While the rest of the arab world doesn't seem too concerned about coalition solders getting captured and shot, beat up with broken bones, mutilated, tortured, humiliated, captured as sex slaves and concubines and otherwise treated as total crap, the US and coalition are being held by ourselves and the entire world to the highest standards. While I do believe the photos indicated very bad activity, I wonder if someone orchestrated a posing of these bad pics for some political reason or if it was just some sick individual way of treating prisoners.

Note: I heard on the news that one of those prisoners stated that while the pics were humiliating, his general treatment was good and he wants to live in the US after this is over with.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by orionthehunter]

Originally posted by orionthehunter
Note: I heard on the news that one of those prisoners stated that while the pics were humiliating, his general treatment was good and he wants to live in the US after this is over with.
[Edited on 8-5-2004 by orionthehunter]

Well it's either:

1. Don't believe what you "hear" on "the news"

or

2. That must have been an almighty inaugural compensation payment and free passage and keys to the city of choice.

The picture that shows the man with his arm around England.....he is the father of the child she is carrying. In civilian life, he is a prison guard in Pennsylvania. Notice that in the picture that he is wearing rubber gloves; she is not. The only conclusion I can draw from this isn't too pretty.

Imagine the values these parents would have passed on to their "love child".

I can believe that these actions took place. As Rumsfeld stated, there are many more photos in our possesion, some showing much worse than we've seen.

I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would allow their photographs to be taken. It is almost like signing your own death warrant. I mean, how utterly stupid can they be?

They got caught and have to answer for it. BUT, what are the rest of the facts? Orders? Don't just go after the grunts, the entire chain of command needs to be held accountable. It's often just the low man on the totem pole that gets all the heat.

Everyone is now primed to accept all of these photos at face value. I'm not saying these are fake, but questions are being raised about some of the others. From now on the first thing is going to be "see, more Proof". If we can question everything else why is this different. I'm not saying ignore or justify, but maybe seeing if there is more than meets the eye.

However, if they were terrorists who were bombing and killing, Baathists, foreignfighters, ect, then all bets are off,

I'm sorry but it does make a difference, and I know it's not suppose to, but to me it does. You have someone who has information that will save the lives of your people. If some of the reports I've heard are true then they went to far. But I will wait for the Court Marshall to get the information.

Originally posted by Duke_Nukem
They got caught and have to answer for it. BUT, what are the rest of the facts? Orders? Don't just go after the grunts, the entire chain of command needs to be held accountable. It's often just the low man on the totem pole that gets all the heat.

Everyone is now primed to accept all of these photos at face value. I'm not saying these are fake, but questions are being raised about some of the others. From now on the first thing is going to be "see, more Proof". If we can question everything else why is this different. I'm not saying ignore or justify, but maybe seeing if there is more than meets the eye.

However, if they were terrorists who were bombing and killing, Baathists, foreignfighters, ect, then all bets are off,

I'm sorry but it does make a difference, and I know it's not suppose to, but to me it does. You have someone who has information that will save the lives of your people. If some of the reports I've heard are true then they went to far. But I will wait for the Court Marshall to get the information.

DUKE! NUKEM! You have some EXCELLENT points there. Yea...what is it that wee...are not seeing. Absolutely. Well thought out. Perhaps we are being a bit too judgemental about the whole thing. How would we know what little miss Englands personal experience is with the whole thing. In such an UGLY state of war, where normal human beings....or delicate of NATURE human beings could not handle too well, how do we know what truly is occurring through the spiritual world. Maybe the opposing spirits saw a great door into this little ladies soul and possessed her to do stranger things than she would otherwise do in a more rational situation...outside of a war situation. Hm. An idear. Especially when I found that post of mine with that 'corpse' laying 'drunk' a bit strange...even the army people who were there, found it a BIT strange. Yea, spirit #uations are prevalent all over the world. Especially in evil scenarios such as war scenarios!

Theres a post RIGHT NOW...not yesterday, not tomorrow....TODAY and RIGHT NOW... above this post in the "recent posts" column that says...

ever had that feeling?

"While he had been up there three lightbulbs strung overhead had gone out and he lost his way back to the trapdoor. He had stumbled around for an unknown length of time closer and closer to panic, barking his shins on boxes and bumping into things, with a stronger and stronger feeling that something was stalking him in the dark."

The Shining by Stephen King

And I think that says ALOT.

Seriously, we are NOT alone. There are forces that are working against us as well as with and FOR us. Let's rethink our thinking on this scene before we go knocking down our more fragile species. I'll admit, I was wrong...thinking maybe she was solely responsible for her actions. Some people aren't as developed as others to know how to handle or fight off the spirits intrusions as some other more highly advanced forms do. Let's consider this carefully before we begin condemning one another. Because maybe that is what those perverse spirits who are playing the game around us, want us to do. To condemn one another. Just another way of weakening our species in our own eyes and making us feel helpless.

Let's examine this incident more carefully now.


[Edited on 5/8/2004 by SamaraMorgueAnn]