Lynndie England (aka the sadistic woman in Iraqi abuse photos)

I heard today from a friend that her court martial will be shown on TV, American and Arabian, to show the Arabian people that it'll be a fair trial..
Can anyone confirm this?
I personally think they are making a show trial out of it, to help intimidate other people out of doing things like this...
Another issue is her punishment.. what do you think she'll get? And more importantly, what do you think she deserves
I think she'll get 10 years, deserves death.
What can her supposedly ignorant superiors get for her (among others) actions? anyone know?


edit: I think she deserves a fair trial, this is after all someone's life we're talking about
But I will be very unhappy, to say the least, if she gets off by saying 'we werent told to do otherwise'
Is it not extremely logical that you dont do that sort of thing to another human being?

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by browha]

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by John bull 1]

deseve death?

i dont agree. i am in no way condoning these abuses, but what did you guys think they were doing to them over there?! of course theyre being abused. this is war! if youre captured youre #ed. they certainly did cross the line, (beating the dude to death), and theyre idiots to pose for pics. this surely happens a lot, but never brought to justice because theres usually not a camera. when the prez says hes "sick to his stomach" hes lying through his teeth. this is exactly how our intellegence soldiers are trained to interogate POWs... i dont think its right, but i do think its norm. as for Lynnie, i think she is stupid. even though i believe she was trained to do this, she still had a choice to go through with it.... and to pose for pictures. sure -she deserves to be punished, but shes not a first. she is an unlucky example.

-lost

Oh, I'm not saying she's the only one
there are 4 cases of prisoner abuse (maybe 5) being done at the moment in the British armed forces, and I know perhaps up to 15 or more American soldiers/officers have been suspended pending further investigation

I can't wait for the arabs to make a movie about her.

hahahaha
I think American forces in Iraq will feel SERIOUS reprecussions from this... I feel sorry for them

Kill that bitch. She put dirt on all the good soldiers down in Iraq.
There is no #ing damn excuse for it. No.

I have read somewhere, (but not confirmed) that Army training of last few years has been a little skimpy on the niceties of the Geneva Convention. I also suspect that there probably hasn�t been that much emphasis place on the individual soldier�s responsibility to disobey an unlawful order (for good reason, I might add).

Remember the Rodney King case and numerous other racial profiling lawsuits in various police departments throughout the nation? Due to the nature of their work, cops tend to develop unique attitudes toward their work, that the rest of us would find offensive.

Military police are not immune to this, in fact, I would think that they would be more susceptible.

Many civilian police departments have had to learn this lesson the hard (and expensive) way. I put the blame on the army command structure for not recognizing that the military police are just as vulnerable to abuse on these types of issues (civil rights type violations) as the civilian forces are.

For your information, she has not been charged with any abuses as of yet. She remains confined to base at Fort Bragg, North Carolina pending action. While her actions in the pictures are abhorrent, she is, as are all Americans accused of crimes, innocent of actually abusing inmates until proven guilty. This is something that everyone seems to forget when it comes to US servicemen. You do NOT give up your rights when you become a soldier. If charges are warranted, she will be charged as the other six have been, confined, and brought to courts martial, if that is the course decided upon by the Article 32 investigative authority.

In addition, courts martial proceedings, to the best of my knowledge, are never broadcast. I don't think there will be any change in that stance this time, although results will be announced rapidly, I am sure...

nodnod I know.. I was just thinking that I wouldnt be surprised if it was broadcast, especially over Arabian TV to show that it had been a fair trial

Originally posted by shoo
Kill that bitch. She put dirt on all the good soldiers down in Iraq. There is no #ing damn excuse for it. No.

You're right, it's all her fault. She stripped those men down and took those pictures all by her lonesome without anyone else being involved. That is one talented broad.

What if her defence was 'I was just following orders' ?
I have a feeling that that phrase is going to be used quite often in this trial, especially if this article is true.

Auftr�ge ist Auftr�ge
right?


edit: Sorry, it's actually Befehl ist
Befehl

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by browha]

I have read somewhere, (but not confirmed) that Army training of last few years has been a little skimpy on the niceties of the Geneva Convention. I also suspect that there probably hasn�t been that much emphasis place on the individual soldier�s responsibility to disobey an unlawful order (for good reason, I might add).

When I was deployed at the start of the war, from Fort Bragg, NC, we had hours and hours of mind-numbingly boring classes before we left. Some covering the Geneva Conentions and what is lawful during war, and how to treat POW's. But I was active duty, maybe the reservists don't go through all of that.

EDIT: You know, they are all saying that they were just following orders, which, of course, is no excuse unto itself. The thing that strikes me, is that of the soldiers accused, the media interviews their family. And the family always tells how gentle they are, and that they won't never do anything sadistic. I guess people don't want to see the bad in their kids. But is what is most striking to me, is how they can change from these kind gentle people to brutalizers. I guess there is a little evil in all of us and some people are just weak and let it out.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by curme]

People may snap. And their whole personality change.

"It just makes me laugh, because that's not Lynn. She wouldn't pull a dog by its neck, let alone drag a human across a floor," said Destiny Goin, 21, as she stood on the porch of a trailer decorated with yellow ribbons in Fort Ashby, W.Va., where she and England were reared. --- www.nydailynews.com...

Yea, the soldiers are going through a tough time. Let alone, imagine what the people of the country are going through....

"Once, we found what we thought was a dead body. We find dead bodies all the time, they're generally not a big deal in a place like this, but this one was right next to a vehicle checkpoint, and we didn't notice it for about an hour. A sergeant kicked the body gently to see if the man was alive, because we couldn't register a pulse or breathing, due to the corpse's immense fatness. The body made no response. The sergeant kicked him again, harder. Again, no response. The sergeant then proceeded to royally kick the ---- out of the body, with grandiose and looping football kicks. This time, the 'corpse' woke up and complained that he was so ------- drunk that he couldn't feel his legs, and that he was going back to sleep." --- www.eightballmagazine.com...

Now, if you think it's easy. Think again. At the same time, all soldiers have a responsibility and should know how far to go with their actions. I truly feel that this little miss, has snapped and gone too far, stepping over the edge of sanity. War is not a pretty thing.

It's still no excuse

I certainly don't condone the actions, but I can understand the reasoning. I guess the world forgets. I guess the world says Iraq tortured...oh well. American soldiers commit abuse...OH MY GOD!

I think this is a case of tit-for-tat meaning US soldiers getting some revenge. WRONG most certainly, but there were no beatings, no broken bones, no electric shock, etc. It was abuse and should be punished, but I don't believe it classes as torture.

I think if you asked the prisoners if they would prefer a Saddam acid bath, bullet to the head, or some broken bones & teeth until death, versus some humiliating pictures, they would all respond, "ah, I'll take that picture thing" (humor)

Anyway, no need to blast me...I don't condone what was done and punishments should be harsh.

Former prisoners of war said the Iraqis threatened to amputate body parts and mail them to the prisoners' relatives in the United States.

Colonel Cliff McCree said, "My prevailing thought was they're gonna cripple me, or they're gonna kill me." McCree and the others were in the basement cells of the Iraqi secret police headquarters, a place of brutality, torture and misery. McCree said he was so hungry during his captivity that he ate scabs off his own body. He said, "I can tell you that for about 20 minutes of my captivity, they played by the Geneva Convention. The rest of the time, they did not." He was repeatedly hit over the head by a metal pipe and his skull was fractured. The treatment of the POWs was supervised by Saddam's son Uday.

One prisoner, former Marine officer Jeff Zahn, was forced to condemn the U.S. during a videotaped session. "I think our leaders and our people have wrongfully attacked the peace-loving people of Iraq," he said. Zahn had a fractured shoulder, and his hands were tied behind his back. He was told if he didn't make the anti-U.S. statement he would be killed. He lost 30 pounds in 46 days.

Dale Store, a pilot shot down by Iraqi anti-aircraft fire, spent 33 days as a prisoner. He said, "I was on the ground and they kicked me in the face and kidneys. Earlier, they had tortured me with electric shocks. ... When they finally stopped asking me questions, I was hoping they would kill me." Former POW and Army Sergeant Troy Dunlap told the Chicago Sun-Times that, after he was captured, an Iraqi soldier clicked what turned out to be an unloaded gun at his temple while another shouted, "Kill him!" The paper said, "Dunlap was tied to a chair and wrapped in a kerosene-soaked blanket. Civilians were allowed to hit and spit at him. He was kicked in the legs and head, and the back of his neck was scorched with hot spoons." In a lawsuit against Iraq filed by Dunlap and other former POWs, they describe beatings with pistols, weighted rubber hoses, blackjacks and steel-toed boots. He lost 18 pounds in seven days as a prisoner, and now has nightmares twice a week about the experience.

Female POW Colonel Rhonda Cornum was raped by her Iraqi captors, who also broke both her arms. But Cornum did not reveal the sexual abuse publicly until 4 years after the war. She says that this is what war is, and it was just one form of abuse inflicted on the POWs. That may not be much comfort to the American female POW now being held by the Iraqis.

www.aim.org...

Originally posted by browha
It's still no excuse

I did not! I was saying...that it does not matter if the person snaps. It is still their responsibility! Just like the man said a few posts ago...it's their own weakness, and they still have to pay for their actions. Ok?

Don't think I'm the one that would give them an easy sentence. The behaviour of that little miss is hugely HORRIBLE. I'm with Bush. It's sickening!

Originally posted by browha
Auftr�ge ist Auftr�ge
right?


edit: Sorry, it's actually Befehl ist
Befehl

True, Browho, thats exactly the kind of mindset we have to deal with here. The Nazi's tried to justify what they did - I expect that she will try the same.
Fortunately we also know what happened to some of the Nazi high-ups (Say hello to Mr Pierrepoint). I wonder if Bumsfelt and the others will get the same treatment ? Somehow I doubt it.

My gut says to courts-martial her (C), send her back to Iraq and drop her off in Najaf...as a civilian. I am sure the Iraqis can think of an appropriate punishment.

But the reality of it all is that the government will orchestrate a show trial as quickly as possible, and hope that it all blows over quickly.

The real truth is that doesn't make a bit of difference what the Iraqis did to our boys...the treatment of any individual in that manner is wrong.

She can say she was following orders. But you can't tell me she didn't know it was wrong.

The damage is done. I wonder how many Americans will die as a direct result of her (and her cohorts') infantile stupidity?

the Iraqis and such as those type, are acting like brutal and thoughtless beings, worse than any animal, that's for sure. It doesn't mean that we as a free country should stoop down to their level. Obviously it gets darn tough dealing with such criminal behaviour that some of the fighters there are tempted to lose their mind and do unto others as they have been done unto by them.
It wouldn't be right though. We as a free country have to take control of that type of brutality and do what we can to obliterate it completely for the future generations to not see any of it any more. So, you gots ta use your mind...really sharply!


If I were you
I'd better watch out
When was the last time
You did anything
Not for me
Or anyone else

Just because
Just because

Yeah
Oh, you really should have known
hey you
You really should have known

Just because
Just because

You've got the most
Ahh, but nobody loves you
Nobody has to

Just because

You
You really should have known
Ohh, you
I think you really should have known

Just because
Just because

Oh yeah
Oh, you better watch out

When we first met
And we passed around gifts
That was a long time, ago
And you're feeling fit

Yeah you
Oh, you really should have known
Yeah you
Oh, you really should have known

Just because
Just because
Just because

Oh yeah
Oh, you better watch out

-Jane's Addiction


[Edited on 5/7/2004 by SamaraMorgueAnn]