How I Lost My Daughter to Paradise - Jehovah's Witnesses

reply to post by TheMythLives


Good, good, good post.

To a kid, it may not look that way but if she was really trying to help the girl out then bully for her.

I'm usually not one to place blame on religion, but when religion is taken to this level it's a very bad thing. This IS cultism.
Do some research on cults muzzleflash, you'll find that there's very little she could have done to stop this from happening except for:
1. Moving far, faaaaar (like out of the country) away from her parents with the money she didn't have
or
2. Not joining the military and being forced to spend life with a semi abusive husband and giving her kid not much of a chance.

Taking a chance for your kid is admirable, it's unfortuneate that she had no other choice than to leave the girl with her mom.

How can this thread not be about religion. There are nuts out there that take things way to far. ALL and i mean all organized religions have the BS of join us or be dammed. its gotten to a point that most people are getting smart enough to see through religion. Its there to control you thats it, put you in a place where you have no control unless your god or savior says so, its pathetic. I give props to the OP for doing what she did ; enrolled in the military so she could provide a future to her children. I am truly sadden by the outcome. most ATS users who are religious,or their next generation in the coming years will not be I guarantee. why? because we deny ignorance.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by IchooseFreewill]

reply to post by TheMythLives


ok you may think you know all about this but you do not

I LIVED this exact story in my Life!

Religion is not the problem here. The problem is the biological parents reluctance to accept responsibility and face up to their mistakes.

The "grandmother" and her "congregation" would have had NO POWER if it was not for the biological parent.

You would probably take my mom's side as well, and pretend that SHE is the victim when in reality me- the abandoned child, was the real victim.

The ONLY PEOPLE responsible for a child are the two biological parents. Anything that happens to them as a result of their choices is the fault of the parents.

This is a really sad story hazel and another example of religion ripping families apart. Your mother sounds like the one headed for hell and I think muzzleflash is being a bit out of order. You cant judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes and you sound like you have had a terrible time of it. I wish you all the best in the future, hopefully your daughter will see sense before it it not too late.

I am truly sorry to hear your story. As I was reading, the thoughts that popped into my head were distasteful to your mother and the JW's. The old me would have written that they are horrible people, your mom, too.

The me that has been breaking out of this cocoon lately, is telling me that first off, you need to forgive your self. Really and truely forgive your self.
This is not easy, but it will set you free.

And then, somehow, through self counseling or meditation or other means, forgive your mother. This is even harder to do. But this, too, will set you free.

I am not a religious person, I am very spiritual. Our thoughts, whether positive or negative, have a 'butterfly effect' on the collective consciousness. If we dwell on bad feelings, that permeates outward and all are affected in some way.

Lightening your load, will lighten you.

My mother was very overbearing over my first daugher. Not like yours, but bad enough. I was not going to have my first daughter. My decision had been made, and so was the appointment. My mother found out and was in my face 24/7 until I cancelled the appt and agreed to have the baby. Loooong story short, she doted over this child, terribly. All but ignored my daugher #2.

Getting through the forgivenss process takes time, but I think it's well worth it.

As I read back over my post, I realized something... I think forgiving myself has been harder than forgiving others...

reply to post by muzzleflash


Well that's a bit over-reached don't you think? Do you even have children?

If not, then you cannot assess this situation with as much clarity as you claim. There are circumstances that arise in everybody's life that force you to make very difficult situations.

Now mind you, staying with the drunken husband could have made things worse than they are now, she could have lost her child to social services and never seen her again.

The one lucky thing in this case is that it was her mother who had custody, she may be a religious zealot but still that counts for something.

I can see where the mother is at fault here but we cannot simply place blame based on that age old rhetoric of "You had a better choice". There clearly was not one in this case.

I'm sorry but this person went through hell and back and was pushed into a corner by somebody who was suppose to love, and support her during a time of great need, who can blame her for perhaps loosing it in a moment of desperation?

~Keeper

I am not out of order. I am simply being realistic.

I was the only one who gave her suggestions to fix the situation as well. Everyone else apparently just says "im sorry for you how sad".

You just do not know what it is like for your parents to leave you unless they did. There is no way in hell you can figure out how it feels, without going through it.

It is a lifelong struggle to get over it, and stop blaming my parents for everything wrong in my own life.

I had to learn that only I am responsible for me now, and when things go wrong in my life it is directly my fault.

My mother still lives in denial, lying constantly to cover up the fact she simply screwed up.

I only wanted to help the OP avoid that, and be 10000x better than my mom.

It is never too late. There is always time to fix things. But we must be honest about our own mistakes, and face up to them.

That is the source of forgiveness.

reply to post by blujay


Good advice! Wise words indeed.

Byt the way I'm still confused why the grandmother would be most interested in one of 2 daughters? it's strange indeed to me.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Hazelnut, this is a painful story. But the past is the past. What's done is done.

Blaming yourself or your mother is useless now. You did what you thought was best at the time. Remind yourself of that. You are not guilty of anything other than trusting your daughter to someone that maybe you shouldn't have. Apparently your mother believes she did the best she could at the time also. Your daughter has no part in any of the decision making, because she was a child.

All three of you are grown now. It's important to live in the present.
Try to accept your Mom, your adult daughter, and yourself for the people you are now.

Your daughter needs to see you for the woman you are now. A real live human being who loves her, a worthwhile human being, and one who wants to be a part of her life. The same with your mother.

Remember your mother does not hold all the cards. She has a great deal to lose here...... her own daughter, if she hasn't already. Your daughter does not hold all the cards either....She stands to lose her own mother.

Can you start over? Lay all your cards on the table. Accept one another for the people you are now.

The past has been unhappy. Maybe the future doesn't have to be?

reply to post by muzzleflash

ok you may think you know all about this but you do not

When did I imply that I knew all about this?

I LIVED this exact story in my Life!

Not trying to be mean, but this is doubtful. The OP didn't even finish her story, so your "exact" story may not be so exact.

Religion is not the problem here. The problem is the biological parents reluctance to accept responsibility and face up to their mistakes.

Did you NOT read the OP. She stated that she felt sorry for what she did. And she even added that she agrees with some of your points. How the hell is Hazelnut not stepping up?

The "grandmother" and her "congregation" would have had NO POWER if it was not for the biological parent.

Your kidding right? You must be....

You would probably take my mom's side as well, and pretend that SHE is the victim when in reality me- the abandoned child, was the real victim.

I rarely take sides. Ask the community here on ATS, I usually have to look at all sides and then come to a conclusion. Their is always 3 parts to a story.

Your side.
My side.
And the Truth.

The ONLY PEOPLE responsible for a child are the two biological parents. Anything that happens to them as a result of their choices is the fault of the parents.

That is faulty logic and can easily be argued against. But I do not want to derail this thread anymore than it already has. So far this is an EXCELLENT thread and does not need to be hounded by arguments that have no bases.

I respect you and your opinion. But I doubt you know exactley what she is going through. I think you could have been a little nices in your first post, I mean it takes guts and courage to post what Hazelnut did and she did not need that post. I hope you understand my position.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Well that's a bit over-reached don't you think? Do you even have children?

If not, then you cannot assess this situation with as much clarity as you claim.

I have a girl that will be 5 yr old on the 8th.

And my boy is 1.5 yrs old.

This craps getting off topic.

How about we focus on Solutions for the OP???

I gave my simple 4 step plan. Anyone else have solutions that may help the situation?

reply to post by muzzleflash


I can understand where you are coming from, you had it rough too, rose up against it and finally you are on your way.

The OP obviously still has some work left in that department but reaching out for support and receiving that kind of criticism isn't really going to help. Now you did offer some suggestions, that's fine, but you only have a piece of the story.

There is so much of that you haven't witnessed or she hasn't disclosed. Judgements are for the dead my friend, not the living.

I don't have a solution for her, because I've walked her road but my experiences was 100% different that hers was, and yours was to her's.

All we can do is attempt to help her by providing support and some good friends to talk to and discuss her emotional state. Finding the solution is for her.

~Keeper

[edit on 7/5/2009 by tothetenthpower]

Originally posted by Hazelnut
My mother divorced my father to marry his brother when I was 10. My cousins became my step-brothers and sisters. My father was TDY on an unaccompanied tour when she did it. My uncle-dad left us a couple years later, after he put his four kids in an orphanage. My mom abandoned us. I lived on the streets for six years. My life was not your run-of-the-mill childhood either.

I'm astonished that you would give that woman custody of your own kids for any reason. My parents are pretty "normal", but I would never give them custody of my kids, mostly because my mom would have them vaccinated, send them to public school, give them soda, and let them watch Sponge Bob...

I understand tho, you were striving for something you thought would make things better, but ended up making things far worse. Sometimes you are your worst enemy.

All you can hope for now is that your daughter will one day wake up and begin to see the truth about the cult and your mother's oppression of her. Then perhaps your daughter will want to talk to you about it.

Unfortunately though, she may never forgive you... as muzzleflash is an example of how the emotional turmoil of such a situation can stick with a person well into adulthood.

Edited to add:

Nevermind. My parents aren't really that "normal" since they let the State raise me from about age 10-17... aside of that though, they are normal working-class sheeple.



[edit on 7/5/2009 by eMachine]

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I think you could have been a little nices in your first post, I mean it takes guts and courage to post what Hazelnut did and she did not need that post. I hope you understand my position.

Oh trust me, it took plenty of courage to be honest.

I have to deal with all the bleeding heart flames now for being brave enough to actually say what I was thinking rather than watering it down.

Trust me, I thought it over like 10 times and actually had my wife review my post to make sure it was not too harsh or unfair.

It was pure bravery to take on the flames that I knew were inevitable for posting my honest assessment. And I hate being in a conflict like this, but i figured my post would actually HELP the OP, and taking on tons of flames seemed like the price id have to pay to do something that seems Right.

And your right, my use of the word "exactly" above was a bit over generalized. Lets go with "Very freaking similar", and i am sorry for coming off at you the wrong way, i apologize to you Myth.

JW's are a very manipulative religious group that work through the tools of: shame and guilt. They believe it is life and death to become, and stay one of them. She truly has been convinced that THEY are the only way.

Although the OP had a very hard time dealing with alcoholism with first husband which in itself is very abusive, she then had to deal with the fanaticism of her mother! We rarely make good decisions under these circumstances. We can judge all we want, but these were debilitating circumstances.


reply to post by Hazelnut



Hopefully, you have attended Alanon? This program can truly set one free. You learn to live one day at a time, knowing that this too will change (circumstances in your life). Clean up your life to the best of your ability and "show" through your new lifestyle how you are not the person they have portrayed you to be.

Then "Let go and Let God!"

Your oldest daughter may be lost...temporarily. You may have to wait to connect to her when she is older. It depends on whether she "buys" into the brainwashing or not. But what about your other children? I would suggest writing to them if you think that your mother would actually give them the letters. Otherwise, I would attempt to call on a periodic basis. It will mean a lot to your children - later, as they recall it.

I have seen many miracles that seemed impossible that only our higher power can take care of...over and over again! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

My sympathies to you.

But, sadly this is a very common occurrence. Christians tend to infiltrate Social Services departments on every level, steering contracts and stealing children to give to members of the various congregations.

Please read a little history before you start defending Christians: their history, past and present, is replete with child-stealing: ask any Native American, Aborigine, or any Third-Worlder. They do it for the "best of reasons" to "save the children". Bull. They are child-stealers for the purpose of furthering their religious crap through brainwashing children, since any reasoning adult rejects it.

On a practical matter, what you have described is an illegal conspiracy. I would shop around for a good lawyer and bring civil and criminal charges against mother, school, church, and agency. If you can prove that a memebr of the congregation onvolved was employed by each of those entities and they could have or might have had input on what happened, you probably have a good case. Try checking with some women's rights and family rights centers nearby. Men tend to go through this more than women, I think, so try some fathers' rights organization, too. If a pattern develops with a lot of the same people doing the same thing to a variety of others, the cases could be combined into a powerful suit.




[edit on 5-7-2009 by apacheman]

[edit on 5-7-2009 by apacheman]

reply to post by muzzleflash


In regards to my previous statements, I apologize. I am not taking my own advice, I should not judge you as I don't know what you've been through either.

Your honesty is much appreciated and I"ll do well to learn from your example.

Once again, my apologies friend.

~Keeper

reply to post by muzzleflash


You are angry, and you have a right to be. You have issues with abandonment to which you are quite entitled.

I have read many posts by The Myth Lives, and find him to be one of the kindest people on ATS. So, maybe it's not really him you are angry with?

I do, sometimes, try to put families back together. The key is "accepting who the person is now". Has your Mom changed? Or if she is still rejecting, then she doesn't deserve you.

I know it's not that simple. But it's a start. It's a painful journey. But you have to be ready to take it, and so does she, before you begin.

But, it can be successful, and worthwhile. It takes time to undo years of hurt, as you are well aware.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't
get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT Personal Disclosure: I am an ex [Disfellowshipped Brother] of the Jehovah's Witnesses and I have stated this openly on many threads before. There now...All my biases are transparently laid bare.

Explanation: My heart goes out to you on so many levels and I have Starred and Flagged this thread with absolutely no reservations or hesitations whatsoever. As I was extremely intimate for several years in my youth with the JW's [fully exposed HERE!] and I am well aware of the Discord that they sow [and reap! RE: The Bombing of a kingdom hall in Australia was one of the FEW pre 9/11 ACTS of Terrorism, along with the Hilton Bombing that cost lives!]. Unfortunately for you your daughter is now a full grown adult and can make her own [if muddled] mind up for herself now [your OP explicitly mentions her age as 27!]. But I'm 36 and my Mum is extremely important to me even though I'm the black sheep of the family [anybody care for 3 bags full of Wrathful wool?] She still loves me regardless so I can fully understand your eternal maternal instinct still wanting to kick in and "save" her from that shear madness that is that CULT! Please feel free to U2U me regarding any support that you may think or feel that I may be able to provide and I encourage you to seriously check out my profile regarding my religious posts and threads and I specifically go to WAR with them, by using the skills THEY taught me to brainwash those such as your daughter, in this thread of mine HERE!

Personal Disclosure: Please feel free to chew me right out for my youthful idiocy as I deserve it fully and I shirk no responsibility I have for leading people astray just as your mother has so lead your daughter and herself, into that quagmire of ignorance based upon the shifting quicksands of Fnords!

Wow, muzzleflash, that was some raw, unedited truth. I think you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders.

Issues like this are never just black or white. Everyone has their own perspective. I, for one, would never leave my child. Period.

Everyday this summer I have had two neighborhood children spend most of the day at my home - six to eight hour blocks of time. They are not more than six years old. No one ever checks on them. We feed them, we watch them play, we give them a safe place to be. At the end of the day we make sure they get home safe before dark. I've never even met one of the children's parents, just older siblings.

People make some unbelievable choices when it comes to their kids. I'm not saying Hazelnut was wrong, I'm just saying these situations are complicated and in today's world, many parents opt for the path of least resistance.

Everything has consequences. I try not to judge. I wish you and the OP the best of circumstances and peace.



[edit on 5/7/2009 by kosmicjack]