The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Originally posted by Lister87
Sorry, i can't agree at all. I wouldn't trust half of Britain with a gun to be honest, people wouldn't use it for self defense, i think it'd be a stupid idea for us to 'bare arms'.

I would gladly possess a legally held gun (along the lines of the states)- not a problem

Cities such as London, Glasgow and Manchester would get a lot worse, drug crimes and gun deaths would rocket, with feuding gangs shooting each other with 'legal' guns. Much like New York, LA and Miami.

They are doing that at the moment- restrictive gun ownership primarily restricts law abiding citizens from owning guns- criminals obtain guns regardless, they are so cheap that legally held weapons are a relative irrelevance

I'd rather every child was taught Karate, Tai Kon-Do or another form of self defense Martial Arts to grow up and use, than be given guns at 18/21, or what would potentially happen, little Marty borrowing his older brothers gun to 'scare some people' only to get into trouble somewhere, and be shot, or shoot someone.

Britain should remain publicly gun-free in my opinion.

I wouldnt have a problem with people learning martial arts, but taking your previous argument, if most people are so stupid, then they would not have the skills necessary to control their acquired martial arts skills so this would just lead to rocketing murders and assaults ( I dont think that btw)

Seriously I saw this thread and thought maybe there would be some interesting discussion over the Daily Mail (or as someone rightly dubbed it 'Daily Fail') and their 'findings', instead I see pages of people ripping into each other of gun legality!
I was more then a little annoyed to see that a) Daily Mail findings were being taken as gospel and b) that someone straight away said UK has higher crime coz of our LACK of guns! I'm sorry but no. If we had guns then the crime rate would be higher with all those people trying to 'protect' themselves etc. There is no way you can actually (and I mean really with proof and real figures) back up this claim.

Soooo... I do not think Americans should not be allowed guns, it is their right and if some want to use them responsibly to protect their families etc then great, if others want to go and shoot people for the sake of it then also great thats their prerogative, hopefully the idiots will wipe themselves out and America can be free of them!

However as a Brit myself and even knowing the increasing number of people illegally carrying guns I feel safer knowing that it is not legally permitted, that way there is no free rain for idiots to get hold of weapons that have been glamorized on TV so easily(there are too many stupid people to contend with). I am less likely to be confronted with a gun then another weapon such as a pipe or bat I dont feel a gun would do me any good in that situation any way!

At the end of the day its no use arguing over US and British citizens do not know what it is like to be on the other side of the discussion we were both raised differently (well when it comes to this factor! ) and thus view things differently.

Either way there are far more pressing matters that need to be addressed by government in both countries then changing gun control regulations currently! (Hmmm I apologise for the slight rant this post became!)

Originally posted by Enril
Seriously I saw this thread and thought maybe there would be some interesting discussion over the Daily Mail (or as someone rightly dubbed it 'Daily Fail') and their 'findings', instead I see pages of people ripping into each other of gun legality!
I was more then a little annoyed to see that a) Daily Mail findings were being taken as gospel and b) that someone straight away said UK has higher crime coz of our LACK of guns! I'm sorry but no. If we had guns then the crime rate would be higher with all those people trying to 'protect' themselves etc. There is no way you can actually (and I mean really with proof and real figures) back up this claim.

to be fair though, there is no way you can actually back up your claim that crime would rocket if we had US gun laws- this is something which would happen in the future and would be inherently unprovable either way.

Also, bit lame to dismiss the report because it appeared in the Mail (most papers, even the broadsheets are filled with nonsense)- the figures were compiled by reports from both the UN and European Commission- the salien points are in relation to violent crime

Britain experiences 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people
South africa experiences 1,609 violent crimes per 100,000 people (though admittedly I would question how extensive South African crime reporting methods are as it is a relative war zone in places)

while the US of A, the US of A that european liberals like to sneer at has 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

We in the UK have been on a moral/social decline for many decades




[edit on 8-7-2009 by blueorder]

reply to post by blueorder


Instead of getting on your high horse, why not look at how the figures were compiled, including how crime is reported.

Don't you know that what constitutes a violent crime in Britain is not considered a violent crime in other countries?

A public order offense is considered a violent crime - just how is swearing in the street a violent crime?

Affray is considered a violent crime - that's right, 2 blokes arrested for fighting each other is affray, and a violent crime.

Frankly your argument is complete and utter rubbish.

I repeat, Britain has ALWAYS been a violent country - it's just there have been periods when it wasn't reported as heavily.

There have also been periods when people didn't report crime, preferring instead to "sort it out themselves" particularly in inner city area's.

I also notice you have not responded to any of my earlier points.

reply to post by blueorder


OK fair enough my claim that 'If we had guns then the crime rate would be higher with all those people trying to 'protect' themselves etc.' is completely opinion based rather then backed up with any fact ... but on the same level there is no way it can be claimed our supposed 'high' crime rate is because of lack of guns! and I never said different about UK going down hill THAT I do agree to an extent

I would have dismissed this report whatever newspaper it was published in, Daily Mail is generally not taken seriously!

Displaying the figures as you have is again something that though you have a place to quote the figures from is not accurate (as you said yourself) because of the reported number v actual numbers, and also as someone else pointed out the countries interpretation of violent crime. (which Budski has go into more detail over)



[edit on 8-7-2009 by Enril]

Originally posted by budski
Instead of getting on your high horse, why not look at how the figures were compiled, including how crime is reported.

this is meaningless debate surpressing stuff- I am not on a "high horse", whatever that is, simply stating the blatantly obvious fact that crime is much higher now than it used to be (in modern comparison without revisiting blackadder ffs)

Don't you know that what constitutes a violent crime in Britain is not considered a violent crime in other countries?

Jeez, seriously, there is not one universal legal system for the entire world- NO WAY! This can apply both ways as there will be things applicable in other countries not applicable here

A public order offense is considered a violent crime - just how is swearing in the street a violent crime?

yes, most public order offences are for swearing, that's right heh

Affray is considered a violent crime - that's right, 2 blokes arrested for fighting each other is affray, and a violent crime.

yes, how can two blokes violently fighting be considered a violent crime, he, this is super stuff

Frankly your argument is complete and utter rubbish.

FAIL

I repeat, Britain has ALWAYS been a violent country - it's just there have been periods when it wasn't reported as heavily.

you can repeat what you want it does not make it a relevant fact- I have stated there has always been violence and there always will (at least until the last person drops off the face of the British Isles). We did, however strive for progress and not to increase our social and moral decay, which seems to have gone awry somewhat.

Your last comment about "periods when it wasn't reported as heavily" is a meaningless comment as you have simply no way of knowing what was and wasnt reported THEN or NOW- in fact, you could say crime now is vastly underreported because people have no faith in the justice system



Let us start with the pinnacle of violent crime, murder, a crime which is the least hard "not to report" or be detected (though obviously some unfortunately do)- now go fetch me murder figures for each decade of the 20th century, good lad, Im off for my tea, but let us see how that pans out

reply to post by blueorder


Oh dear, the usual point by point tactic which is wearisome in the extreme and simply serves to show that you have no idea of how to prove something or what you're talking about.

Lets start with some crime stats which show that crime in the UK is on the DECREASE over the last few years:
news.bbc.co.uk...

I know it's a drag, but you could at least TRY to read something factual on which to base your supposed argument.

Let's move on to affray - in some countries, a fight between 2 males is not seen as a violent crime until one party gets injured above what we would consider to be ABH.

clear enough?

yes, most public order offenses are for swearing in the presence of the police - look up the stats, it's easy to do, I'll even point you in the right direction: www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

Reported crime is recorded crime, or is this lost on you?
There are many historical instances particularly in inner cities where anecdotal evidence has shown that people did not report crime for a variety of reasons.

Try reading some of the historical media accounts I posted a link to on the last page - they prove my point which may be why you have ignored them.

By all means, let's start with murder

Here's a link which shows just how wrong you are.

Now back up your ridiculous claims with some facts.

blueorder - pwnd

People with guns are much more dangerous than people without .

reply to post by Jabbah


Very, very true. That's why I conceal carry a 1911 .45ACP.

I would hate to find myself in a hatchet fight on chance, and be the only one without a hatchet!

reply to post by dooper


mmhhh , realx , calm down , try to think how beautiful life would be without hatchets and guns .
Big bang bang big bum bum die die......and when you die adios 4 ever

[edit on 11-7-2009 by sorennn]

reply to post by CRB86

Farmers have shotguns (my dad still has his) but if you live in an urban area, you'll be amazed at this, you have to keep it in 2 halfs, locked in 2 seperate cabinets. One half is in our garage and one is in the attic. These are the terms and conditions for having a gun license and they are completely acceptable.

How in the world do they ever enforce rules such as these? Please don't tell me that they conduct random or regular inspections?

reply to post by jsobecky


They do actually have the statutory power to do so, the Police. Part of having the license is to agree to Police checks. I doubt they do that often though, probably only in cases where they have reason to believe otherwise, or have received a complaint.

reply to post by stumason

I have a friend who is a shotgun fanatic and goes clay pigeon shooting often. He doesn't have to keep his guns, at last count there's four of them, in seperate halfs in different parts of his home. I've never heard that before. His are kept in a gun cupboard which by law has to be attached to the wall with bolts and has to be hidden from view and locked with an accepted sturdy padlock. His gun cupboard is fitted to a wall inside a fitted wardrobe.
The police usually check up on him twice a year to make sure that the rules are being applied correctly.

Now I live in Liverpool, UK and I have to say, this place is ridiculously violent. Now i can not compare to other places, as I dont know them, but i can give my views and some facts here. Now, I've lived here for ever, and since the age of 10, I have been beaten up about 20+ times, for no reason. More times for arguments etc. I have been stabbed in the stomach, 2 roads away form my home. Held up by a gun and mugged, shot at from a field. Had some sort of metal coil wire wrapped around my neck till I nearly passed out. The list goes on.

Again though, I can't possibly compare, but i'd like to hear more from local residents for the rougher areas of U'S etc, and also ask, where are the police?

Maybe they should have guns over here, like the U.S an so on.

reply to post by Reklaw




I've lived there all my life and never had any of the problems you just mentioned. There are certain areas I would not trust but 90 percent of Liverpool is as safe as anywhere. Which area do you live in?



(edit-did you make your nickname back to front on purpose?)


[edit on 11-7-2009 by Hawkwind.]

reply to post by Hawkwind.


Now, Broadgreen(supposed nice area) I was born in Norris Green, moved to Anfield when I was 9, and here at the age of 15.

I got stabbed here and made the papers.
I've been beaten up about 11-15 times in Broadgreen, this place definately is NOT as safe as anywhere else in England.

What area are you from?

Originally posted by Reklaw
reply to post by Hawkwind.

 

Now, Broadgreen(supposed nice area) I was born in Norris Green, moved to Anfield when I was 9, and here at the age of 15.

I got stabbed here and made the papers.
I've been beaten up about 11-15 times in Broadgreen, this place definately is NOT as safe as anywhere else in England.

What area are you from?

Well, no disrespect to anyone who's lived in Anfield or Norris Green but they are dodgy areas. I said only about 90 percent of Liverpool is safe and when it comes to crime rates places like London and Manchester have higher statistics when it comes to robberies and violence according to the BBC site and others.

I've lived in Hunts Cross most of my life and have seriously never had any trouble, the last time I fought I was in school, there's still been crime here but nothing major.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Farmers have shotguns (my dad still has his) but if you live in an urban area, you'll be amazed at this, you have to keep it in 2 halfs, locked in 2 seperate cabinets. One half is in our garage and one is in the attic. These are the terms and conditions for having a gun license and they are completely acceptable.


How in the world do they ever enforce rules such as these? Please don't tell me that they conduct random or regular inspections?

Thats actually misleading, what you have to do is keep the Guns and ammo in seperate lockboxes in different rooms in the home.

reply to post by Hawkwind.


Isn't Norris Green that place where that silly "gang" of oiks come from that shot that boy? The "Nogger Dogs" or something daft.

Norris Green just sounds like a dive, no offence. But it's always places with names like this that turn out to be the rough area's.

Here in Reading/Wokingham it's Whitley Wood, Norreys Avenue, Dee Road... All places that just sound a bit......crap.