It's Time For America To Dump Israel !!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
The best reason for us not breaking ties with Israel is the fact that we are the ones who have continually kept Israel from eradicating their neighbors. If not for us, Israel would have wiped out the Palestinians already and who knows who else. In any case things would be MUCH worse over there if we cut Israel loose.

You are absolutely correct. Without US restraint God only knows what would have happened by now. Great Post!

Isreal would not exist as we know it without the support of the USA.

Come on, dumping Israel would leave a tiny nation surrounded by enemies to die a painful quick death.

I believe that time will be the downfall of Israel.

we do not need to remove our support.

Take this for what it is worth, Israel at the moment has a majority of jews.

Now Israel is a democracy right?

The birth rate among jewish Israelis is about 1.5 per married couple, the Arab/muslim Israeli is at about 4.5 per married couple, and Arab/muslim Israelis have the right to vote.

Given that and some fuzzy math, you will see that within about 40 to 50 years the Israeli Jew will be a minority in Israel.

The arabs will vote them out!

Problem solved?

Gazz

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Problem solved?

'Problem' not solved (gone, but not solved): Jewish people would be homeless, once again, if that were to be the case.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Isreal would not exist as we know it without the support of the USA.

Come on, dumping Israel would leave a tiny nation surrounded by enemies to die a painful quick death.

I believe that time will be the downfall of Israel.

we do not need to remove our support.

Take this for what it is worth, Israel at the moment has a majority of jews.

Now Israel is a democracy right?

The birth rate among jewish Israelis is about 1.5 per married couple, the Arab/muslim Israeli is at about 4.5 per married couple, and Arab/muslim Israelis have the right to vote.

Given that and some fuzzy math, you will see that within about 40 to 50 years the Israeli Jew will be a minority in Israel.

The arabs will vote them out!

Problem solved?

Gazz

Well actually. that would probably create a bigger problem - just what the western world needs, a Muslim nuclear power committing genocide against Jews that used to run that country. Then what happens when they decide to flex their nuclear American made muscle? That would be a BAD thing.

To react to the first part of your post though, you said:

Come on, dumping Israel would leave a tiny nation surrounded by enemies to die a painful quick death.

awww man are you wrong - they have the nukes that almost no other country has in the middle east. They have a million man army equiped with both US and Russian weapons. They have beat the crap out of their enemies before, and I believe they would continue to do so for a while till their economy couldn;t support their military any more. But really dude, Isreal has a top 5 world military.

Ok seekerof... you gave me a good lead. Thank you. I see what you were saying about that Husseini character and his ties with hitler. (edit: my opinions are in bold italic when embedded within website excerpts)

"3. Hitler and the Mufti
And what about Islam, the third monotheistic religion? While Hitler ranted against Christianity and Judaism, expressing "a violent feeling of anger at the idea that some Germans were able to be taken in by theological doctrines devoid of any depth," he contrasted these hated teachings with "those of Confucius, of Buddha and of Mohammed" which provided spiritual "sustenance". (Angeberts, p.246) In this context, Hitler's friendship with Haj Amin al Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem - which included asylum in 1941, the honorary rank of SS Major and an acceptable racial "genealogy" - can be understood as more a sign of respect than political expedience. There were even cases of Nazis relocating to Arab countries and converting to Islam. (p.275-276 note 14) In this opinion, Hitler had the backing of the Thule Society, whose founder Sebottendorf praised Islam for having a "vitality greater than that of Christianity" which flowed "from a torrent which nourished everything" - that same "thread of lost knowledge" which was the goal of the Nazi quest. (Angeberts, p.165-166) [This raises other ideas for why Hitler's Mein Kampf is so popular among some Moslems; besides the expected political admiration for brute force, there may also be a consensus of spiritual worldviews.] "

from: philologos.org...

more similar hatred from this husseini character (what a bad guy you found here, seeker!

)

"During WWII, Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Moslem Mufti of Jerusalem (uncle of today's Palestinian Authority Minister of Jerusalem Affairs, Faisal Husseini), met with Adolph Hitler to organize the extermination of the Jewish populations of the Middle East. Yasser Arafat is also related to this family by his mother."

from: www.bridgesforpeace.com...

Needless to say, I have seen similar texts describing a similar relationship with Yassir Arafat. To the average layman, this seems like some kind of antisemitic conspiracy, and I can understand that. Really, I can. I would be thinking along the same lines had I not been aware of some of the information available in terms of genetic coordination of the powers that be. Believe me, it's nothing of the antisemtic sort. It's 'all in the family'. Allow me to explain.

On one side of the dispute, you have the progenitors of the countries who would forcibly exile people, particularly those of Jewish genealogy and faith, out of their homes. On the other, you have people who are desparately trying to maintain their grasp on the world by 'keeping a tough grip on the reigns'. Metaphorically speaking, I mean that they will engage any means necessary to force their agenda of control upon the world and have been doing so for centuries. Idealogically, these two otherwise separate factions are one and the same.

Some excerpts from a site I just found that explains this in better detail:

"Today, the Vatican maintains its own State Department and an influential albeit non-voting presence in the United Nations. Reports such as the following confirm current Vatican negotiations to regain control of the Holy Land. Although it must now work through diplomatic channels, the second Vatican conquest of the Holy Land will be heralded as another spiritual mandate to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire. "The Vatican's Jerusalem Agenda" by Israeli journalist, Barry Chamish, inquired: "Did Shimon Peres make a deal with the Vatican?" Consider the evidence:



* On Sept. 10, '93, just three days before the signing of the Declaration of Principles in Washington, the Italian news magazine La Stampa reported that part of the peace deal was an unwritten understanding that the Vatican would receive political authority over the Old City of Jerusalem by the end of the millenium. The newspaper reported that Shimon Peres had promised the pope to hand over the holy sites of Jerusalem the previous May and that Arafat had accepted the agreement.
* In March '94, the Israeli newsmagazine Shishi published an interview with Mark Halter, a French intellectual and close friend of Shimon Peres. He said he delivered a letter from Peres to the Pope the previous May, within which Peres offered the Vatican hegemony over the Old City of Jerusalem. The article detailed Peres's offer which essentially turned Jerusalem into an international city overseen by the Holy See.
* In March '95, the radio station Arutz Sheva announced that it had seen a cable sent by the Israeli Embassy in Rome to the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem outlining the handover of the Old City of Jerusalem to the Vatican. Two days later Haaretz published the cable on its front page.
The Foreign Ministry explained that the cable was genuine but someone had whited out the word "not." ie We will not transfer authority to the Vatican. Incredibly, numerous Bnei Brak rabbis who had cancelled Passover meetings with Peres over the issue of the cable accepted the explanation and reinvited him to their homes.
The Foreign Ministry's Legal Affairs Spokesperson, Esther Samilag, publicly complained about "various capitulations" to the Vatican. She was immediately transferred to a post at the Israeli Embassy in Katmandu, Nepal.
MK Avraham Shapira announced in the Knesset that he had information that all Vatican property in Jerusalem was to become tax exempt and that large tracts of real estate on Mount Zion were given to the pope in perpetuity.
Jerusalem's late Deputy Mayor Shmuel Meir announced that he had received "information that properties promised to the Vatican would be granted extra-territorial status."
Beilin was forced to answer the accusations. He admitted, 'Included in the Vatican Agreement is the issue of papal properties in Israel that will be resolved by a committee of experts that has already been formed.' If so, this committee has not since released any proof of its existence. "


Even more informative is what's to come next, although its from a modern perspective of the past:


"Concurrent with the Vatican's negotiations for authority over the Old City of Jerusalem, others who would also establish a claim to Jerusalem's Holy Places have a covetous eye on the Holy Land. The Prieur� de Sion appears to be the hierarchy of a vast network of organizations which make up a Secret Brotherhood that covers the globe.

"There are a great many secret societies in operation, [Charles] Nodier declares. But there is one, he adds, that takes precedence over all others, that in fact presides over all others. According to Nodier this 'supreme' secret society is called the Philadelphes. At the same time, however, he speaks of 'the oath which forbids me to make them known under their social name. Nevertheless there is a hint of [the Prieur� de] Sion..." - 31:152

According to Rosicrucian book Holy Blood, Holy Grail, this august body has maintained a low profile from its inception and remains behind the scenes orchestrating critical events in Western history.

"The Prieur� de Sion exists today and is still operative. It is influential and plays a role in high-level international affairs as well as in the domestic affairs of certain European countries..." (3)
The Prieur� de Sion claims to be the Guardians of the Holy Grail--the sacred icon of the Merovingian bloodline which blasphemously purports to be the bloodline of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, according to another popular Grail book, Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner, the Merovingian dynasty derives its pedigree from the 5th century King Merovee of France, who was reportedly sired by a 'beast out of the sea'--

"...the mysterious sea beast -- the Bistea Neptunis -- as symbolically defined in the Merovingian ancestry. The relevant sea-lord was King Pallas, a god of old Arcadia�The immortal sea-lord was said to be 'ever-incarnate in a dynasty of ancient kings' whose symbol was a fish - as was the traditional symbol of Jesus. (4)"


This, 'beast of the sea', implies Enlil, a deity who was once worshipped under similar pretenses. Enlil is also a major contributor to various biblical tales, not limited to Abraham and the infamous convenant.

Please allow me to continue to quote this site,

"The Merovingian dynasty reigned over Europe from the 5th to the 8th centuries, but was removed from power in 751 A.D. by a document called the Donation of Constantine. It seems, however, that the Roman Catholic authorities did not recognize the Messianic claim of the Merovingian lords but viewed the cult with a morbid suspicion of ulterior motives: "During the latter years of the declining Empire, the greatest of all threats to the Roman Church arose from a Desposynic royal strain in Gaul. They were the Merovingian dynasty�" 29:163 According to Sir Laurence Gardner's Realm of the Ring Lords, the Donation of Constantine was created for the express purpose of overthrowing this dynasty of pagan kings, was a fraud:

". . . [I]t is important to consider the original document which made church kingship possible in the first place . . . because the implementation of this particular document some 1,248 years ago led to just about every social injustice that has been experienced in the Christian world. The document to which I refer is called 'The Donation of Constantine.' All monarchical and governmental practice has, for centuries, been based on the initial precept of this charter, but...the precept is invalid. There are those in our midst today who, under the dynasty rule of Grail entitlement, are rightful kings and queens. When the Donation made its first appearance in the middle 8th century, it was alleged to have been written by Emperor Constantine 400 years earlier (although, strangely, never produced in the interim). It was even dated and carried his supposed signature. What the document proclaimed was that the Pope was Christ's elected representative on Earth, with the power to 'create' kings as his subordinates. The provisions were put into operation by the Vatican in 751 whereupon the longstanding Merovingians were deposed and a whole new dynasty was supplemented by way of a family who had hitherto been mayors of the Royal Palace (the equivalent of prime ministers). They were dubbed 'Carolingians', and their only king of any consequence. . .was the legendary Charlemagne." - 248

Following the demise of the Fisher-Kings, the deposed Merovingian families devised a plan to reestablish their dynasty.

1. The Merovingians established monasteries in order to infiltrate the Roman Catholic Church.


2. St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Merovingian founder of the Cistercian Order, instituted spiritual principles for warrior-monks which justified and encouraged killing 'infidels' in Christ's name (rather than preaching the Gospel to them).


3. Bernard of Clairvaux also created the secretive Prieur� de Sion.

4. Under the auspices of the Merovingian-manipulated Catholic Church, the first Crusade would be launched to regain the Holy Land...


... After the Knights Templar were destroyed, the Prieur� de Sion carried on with its secret mission to reinstate Merovingian bloodline:

"There was a secret order behind the Knights Templars, which created the Templars as its military and administrative arm. This order, which has functioned under a variety of names, is most frequently known as the Prieur� de Sion. ...Although the Knights Templar were destroyed and dissolved between 1307 and 1314, the Prieur� de Sion remained unscathed.- 31:106-7 "


A site that documents this coordination of efforts pretty well is @ watch.pair.com... and is where these last excerpts originated.


In the research project concerning the Israeli Palestinian conflict, I have outlined precisely the same thing. That both sides are aiming for the same goal in mind. What that goal is exactly is anyone's best guess, but it seems to be quite the malevolent objective. This collection of bloodlines, of which the Merovingians are a major contributor of in the last two millenia, is responsible for instigating both sides of the conflict. This would also help to explain why Hitler, who was sanctioned by the same kind of elitists, would have a government that supported people like Hussein while at the same time agreeing and promoting the ideaologies of a certain Rothschild and Herzle, who were both crucial to the foundation of the Zionist movement. You see, Rothschild is most definitely an ancestor of the Merovingian bloodline, which in itself, is an extension of a very very old bloodline that goes back to Sumerian 'royalty'. This would also explain why Husseini and Arafat are related and why Arafat, for one, has remained the public leader of the Palestinians when I am quite sure that there are many of such people under his control who do not agree with all of his efforts.


If any of you made it this far in terms of reading all of this, I am impressed. You have certainly beaten the odds

[Edited on 5/5/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

Good book to read:
The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism: Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin Al-Husseini
Chuck Morse

Here is s short synopsis of it:
The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism: Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin Al-Husseini



seekerof

The reason we can't do this is also becasue, IF and ONLY IF, the prophacies in the Bible are true, turning our backs on the chosen people of God will spell the worse for us in the End Days. However, if we don't leave that region of the world, we just make things worse. Yet another lose-lose situation. Sigh.

[Edited on 5/5/04 by xenophanes85]

Another interesting idea is that area was fine and dandy for a verrrrrry long time, particularly after the Ottomans beat the crap out of the Byzantine Empire and took over.

The Ottoman Empire was more than 'tolerant' of different cultures and religions. It incorporated such ideas into their socieity and left such people alone. However, things only got bad around 1918-1920 which is about the same time World War I was winding down and the Ottomans were losing ground... mostly because of the Allied military's technological superiority, which included tanks and mustard gas.

[Edited on 5/5/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

[Edited on 5/5/2004 by AlnilamOmega]

I find it amazing that so many people can be so mis-informed regarding the State of Israel.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians not the Jews.

Present day Jews are NOT Hebrews.
They are not genetically related to the Hebrews.

They have no moral ethical or legal right to the land of Palestine.
The Rothschild family created this problem., maybe somebody should create a problem for the Rothschilds.

Originally posted by Eljay
I find it amazing that so many people can be so mis-informed regarding the State of Israel.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians not the Jews.

Present day Jews are NOT Hebrews.
They are not genetically related to the Hebrews.

They have no moral ethical or legal right to the land of Palestine.
The Rothschild family created this problem., maybe somebody should create a problem for the Rothschilds.

Would it be too much to ask for some proof of your claims?

Originally posted by Eljay
The Rothschild family created this problem., maybe somebody should create a problem for the Rothschilds.

An infantile approach at best, a mind state that stems from an inability to confront the real Mideast issue... the virtual enslavement of the Arab people by a few dictators, royal families, and, "religious" leaders. Psych 101, its called displacement.

I have to agree with Ambient Sound. The US is keeping Israel in check somewhat. Look at the 1st Gulf War, when Iraq was lobbing SCUDS into Israel. I recall that Israel was ITCHING to unleash hell on Iraq, yet we calmed their nerves by giving them patriots.

Personally I think the US should just abandon the middle east. #1 no we don't need their oil. They are not the US's largest source of oil at all. And im sick of living in a country where our largest policy is defending and policing the middle east. Spend these billions of dollars at home.

And oh.. to anyone saying "look how the isralies treat the poor palistinians". Thats a god-damn joke right? Seriously.. I hope you are kidding. I don't see isralies running around strapping C4 to children blowing up busses. Yes the isralie soldiers are killing children as well. Take it into perspective tho. Both sides are wrong. But make sure you look at BOTH SIDES.

PS- Here's a little tid bit of information.

www.nypost.com...

Anyone read about THAT little incident? No I doubt it.. the world is in too much of an uproar because Camel Joe and his buddies were "tortured" into taking a bunch of homo nudie pics. Those poor poor arabs. DAMN YOU USA!!!!


Derek

Wow, the ignorance and conjecture in this thread is stunning!

1) Israel has as much right to exist as any other country on this planet.

2) While some of you mentioned "Israel's covert goals" NO ONE has seen fit to mention the Palestinians' OVERT, STATED GOAL of the destruction of the state of Israel and "Driving the Jews into the Sea". One needs only to look at PLO and Hamas charter documents to see the truth of this.

3) Israel can and DID survive without U.S. help - in fact, not until AFTER the '67 war did the massive U.S. aid begin - the Israelis won their previous wars mainly with equipment purchased from the French and various other European military castoffs.

4) We should support Israel because they are OUR ALLY, in fact our ONLY true ally in the entire Middle East. Realpolitik, people.

5) If we're going to discuss IsrAEl, perhaps we should all learn to spell it correctly. IsREAl is not it, people

All that said, I DO think that all the Gaza settlements and most of the ones in the West Bank need to be dismantled and the land given back to the Palestinians. The Golan Heights are another story - they are strategically vital to Israel's security.

Originally posted by Root

4) We should support Israel because they are OUR ALLY, in fact our ONLY true ally in the entire Middle East. Realpolitik, people.

Yeh, and I wonder why that is root....Maybe America should consider the countries surrounding Isreal a bit more..

Originally posted by earthtone

Originally posted by Root

4) We should support Israel because they are OUR ALLY, in fact our ONLY true ally in the entire Middle East. Realpolitik, people.

Yeh, and I wonder why that is root....Maybe America should consider the countries surrounding Isreal a bit more..

Hmmm, like Syria and Jordan? One is a brutal military dictatorship with strong terrorist ties, the other is a backward monarchy that is as much, if not more, at the root of the current Middle East impasse as any of the other participants.

And then there is Egypt, which 20 years ago finally saw the wisdom of recognizing Israel's statehood and right to exist, and has since had NO trouble with Israel or the US whatsoever, and was given back the lands that Israel annexed as a result of EGYPTS attacks on Israel. There is a lesson there for all countries neighboring Israel, but they refuse to learn it. They'd much rather make noises about "throwing the Jews into the Sea" and continue to finance and support Palestinian Terrorism. Meanwhile Jordan has repeatedly refused the "Palestinian" people, who are essentially Jordanians, entry and/or citizenship - they don't want the "Palestinian Problem" on their land, no thank you very much.

That would be soooooo smart..hello..do you realize they have the BOMB about 120 of them including second strike weapons..it would be Bye bye Muslim world and probably the whole world due to after effects..so it's not an option.So come up with some other solution instead of this islamic "religion of peace" rantings

Originally posted by Eljay
I find it amazing that so many people can be so mis-informed regarding the State of Israel.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians not the Jews.
...

Yes, exactly like the United States belonging to Native Americans. Exactly like western Europe not belonging to the Romans, when they conquered it. How do you think people get land? They do not simply own it. Many of the world's countries were stolen from their original inhabitants. Let us all just leave America, and give it back to the Native Americans.

I'm in the mood for a numbered post. So much more organized. So, here goes.

1) Eljay, you sound like a cheap infomercial. "That's right!!!"

2) Thanks for using Rense as your primary source, it helped me understand where you were coming from. Do you use other reliable sources like tea leaves as well?

3) Um Gazz, you made an interesting statement that if the US left Israel to itself it would be destroyed by its Arab neighbors. First of all, you have proven me right by stating that the ultimate goal of Israel's Arab neighbors is to destroy Israel, and secondly for some reason unknown to me you seem to have not heard of the wars of 1967 and 1973. Research please, then restate.

4) Eljay, your point about Jews not being "real" Jews is just as wrong as when Colonel vomits it up periodically. You can no more prove your own lineage than you can disprove theirs. If they aren't "real", well, neither are you. Sorry, photo album geneaology books weren't around at the time of the diaspora.

5) Eljay, as soon as you can find me the ethnic group called Palestinians give me a holler.

6) Commonsense, his argument requires no proof. What is required is that we accept his arguments as the only acceptable way of viewing the world and treat everyone else's opinions as naive.

7) Derek, thank you for your point on the Gulf War of 1991. I think we can all agree that Israel would have annihilated a country that could not land a missile within 1 mile of its intended target. Why didn't they? Because we asked them not to.

8) Root, Israel's right to exist is only questioned by those who have harbored hostile feelings for them. Luckily the opinions of those people has, since 1948 proven to be irrelevant and without consequence. That will continue to be the case as, like it or not, they are not going anywhere.

9) earthtone, should we consider the same Muslim neighbors of Israel are the same friendly folks that offer money to people who kill Americans? Or that they're the same friendly civilized people who kill more of their own people than anyone else?

10) The palestinians owning Israel is a laughable claim and for its rebuttal you can do a search on the topic. You'll find countless posts by people like seekerof and mycroft and others proving based in HISTORIC DOCUMENTS, EVENTS, and PROOFS that this is simply not the case.

History vs. Rense (with a gaggle of ignorant people in it's corner).

Taking bets?

bad job on an image tag. so sorry

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Djarums]

It isn't going to happen. The United States will never dump Israel. The day we do....all holy crap will start flying everywhere.

It's Biblical. Too many Christians still have some say about Israel and the biggest friend of all right now comes from the Republican conservative right.

Give me a few minutes and I'll find the scripture for you.