UFOs: Lets cut the crap already

reply to post by Matteo


Im not here to instill fear, I want people to start looking at this whole thing in a very rational way and wake up already! It is time to acknowledge exactly what is being done to our very own people and get ready! I assure you I have an immense amount of disdain for anyone who makes fun of those already in a horrible situation. I am a sceptic hunter (not those who simply dont believe, but those arm chair ones so bent on belittling others) and will take on anyone, and if someone is mocking or impersonating an abductee then they will find out why they call me Dredulous!

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Dredulous]

So lets cut the crap already. As long as there are unknowns that cause military radar / visual hiccups there needs to be an investigation in play. To treat this subject as a joke is to laugh at the very principle of science, to rigorously understand the unknown.

The thing is there are probably many investigations in play all over the world. There are also multiple reasons why they aren't heard of, many of which have been mentioned before. Some of these might include:

• They haven't been able to come up with anything, so they hold back as they don't want to seem incompetent.
  
• They have come up with some interesting results, but for whatever misguided reason they don't want to cause a panic.
  
• They're still working on a way to best spin the whole situation to their advantage.
  
• Some other reason as to why they haven't published all known information.
  

I mean, like you say, do you really think a UFO would loiter around a nuclear missle launch facility and they wouldn't do everything they can to find out about it? There are so many incidents of these UFOs having indirect contact with the world's military forces that there is absolutely zero chance that they haven't allocated a huge amount of research towards it (off the top of my head I'm thinking of Rendlesham, Mexican military UFO chase, the Clifford Stone Disclosure Project testimony - I know that last one is a little flakey but I cna't remember the rest without going to look).

That's my take anyway.

With there being different species right here in the deepest of our waters I would think implants might be located in different locations depending on your species.

As for the Grey's I was shown and told about the Implant of there """Tracking Device."""

It is in,.... "the back of the head in the middle of the lower left lobe."..... It is smaller then anything any human could ever imagine and will be hard to locate but it can be located. You will have to use your most sophisicated equipment and look long and hard. They said they had to greatly magnify it just for me to see and they did show me the number in my third eye and this number is the only thing I forgot, why? because it isn't meant to be known "until" it is meant to be known.

A PIN POINT IS LARGE COMPARED TO THIS TRACKING DEVICE, what I saw was square and black.

If there are Ufologist here note what I wrote, the day will come when it is located and I look forward to seeing who takes credit for locating it cause I know I don't get any credit and I am the only human that knows where the Grey's put this.

If Doctor's do not validate this in time then this information I give only makes me look bad and all I can say is so be it.





[edit on 24-6-2009 by observe50]

reply to post by Xtraeme


Here's my beef, since I'm one who rarely buys into the UFO theories...

What gets me is how quick people are to pull the trigger that UFO automatically means Aliens. I believe truly that there are UFO's insofar as there have been genuinely unidentifiable flying objects in regards to the people who were able to see, sense, etc it. Some could be truly weather balloons that are catching the light strangely, reflected lights off of high altitude clouds or even an experimental aircraft we don't know of. All completely within the realm of possibility. Aliens are even within the realm of possibility, as is a 50 foot Nike Air Jordan briefly coming into existence, given quantum theory.

But, there is what is possible vs what is likely. That is where the gap is that we squeeze reasonable doubt.

Personally, I would LOVE to see aliens visit and make some sort of first contact. I would love to have proof present itself that we are not alone in this universe. At the same time, I'm not so desperate in this need that I'll jump at everything and scream 'alien visitors!'.

The whole UFO subset of the world could gain infinitely more credibility in their cause among others if they did a few very simple things..

1 - common sense. Dad always said, never pull your stuff out unless you're ready to use it. That pertained to everything.. a gun, your pecker, damning evidence or suggesting a woman is pregnant unless she says so or there's a fetus squirting out of her. Simply put.. don't suggest aliens until you see one.

2 - for the love of god people, we live in the digital age.. get a decent camera if you're going to take pictures.. and learn how the focus works.

3- Don't call the news, call scientists and/or your local air traffic control. Your shaky out of focus video and rambling personal accounts are only proof to you.

4- Stop screaming debunker at everyone who doesn't believe you. As soon as you drop the D-bomb, you turn off 75% of your audience like a switch since it's a quick sign that you are paranoid, not open minded, and you're going to cling to your belief despite anything. If you're not willing to be wrong, why should anyone else be?

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts

We can take this seriously all day long, but until you can get the average Joe to stop smirking when the subject comes up then all is lost. And I think you can agree it will be a cold day in hell before that happens, this subject is filled with too much ignorance and just plain stupidity (there is a difference).

If you don't believe what we believe you are obviously stupid and ignorant.
I so love that argument.

How about you just roll out a UFO?
End of story, then you can start going "na nah na na na nahhhh"

The difference I think is, most "debunkers" (poor term because there is nothing to debunk) don't think "believers" are ignorant. We just think you're making improper and reactionary assumptions.

It's the believers side that thinks everyone else is a sheep with ignorant brain matter.

I'd bet the best way to open true conversation about this subject is if believers started to cull the herd a bit. There are so many "crazies" that the message gets lost amount their illogical shouting.

It's not the subject that is treated as a joke IMO, it's the idiots that won't admit that there could be a more mundane explanation for most UFOs than ETs visiting us or black-ops tech, and TBH, I don't see any reason why they should not be treated as a joke. It's gung-ho attitudes like this that are to blame for the state that UFOlogy is in today. A mess that no self-respecting person would want to be associated with!

What is the point in trying to look for UFOs (ETs) when you can't even identify what is not an ET, let alone know what characteristics a true ET would have?

To those (like the OP, Internos, etc) who come to the table whilst retaining a non-biased analytical attitude to the subject, I applaud you. That is how it should be done, and UFOlogy needs more people like you.

to conduct a good investigation .. I think it would be good to start

Here....


Here...


and Here...starting about 1:35


Now, you can talk a good talk. but do you personally have ANY evidence to disprove Dr.Leir's findings?

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

One of the first life changing events that occurred to me was when I was 11 years old in 1965 near Portland OR. It was a clear cloudless day and my friends and I were out in a swimming pool playing and there were about twelve to fifteen of us kids and about five or six parents watching us. A kid called out an alerted yell ‘LOOK’! He pointed to the NE and everyone at the swimming pool looked to where he was pointing.

A ‘classic’ brushed aluminum/pewter grey flying disc that looks very similar to Bob Lazar’s described craft was moving from E to W, was about 250 feet up and about 750 feet away. We all watched it for about 15 seconds as it passed silently. One of the mothers grabbed the youngest kid and ran to her apartment. It was at that point that I knew that Flying Saucers were not science fiction and cool movie stuff! We all saw the same thing at the same time and it was a real object! I don’t know who built it, who piloted it or where it came from, but my interests immediately went in the direction of Science and Engineering. I had to know how an object that size could ‘fly’ silently into the wind without propellers and or jet thrust…

Over the next few years everything I could about flying and UFO’s. I was mostly reading stuff over my head as far as the science and engineering stuff obviously but, the books I read on UFO’s, except for a few, were all biased toward ‘swamp gas and Venus’ as an explanation. Even this odd and weird official position of our government intrigued me in that they were making up such terrible and poor excuses for something obviously real. Why?

I won’t go into my life and all the career paths I have taken except a small time frame in the 80’s when I worked for an R&D company in the Silicon Valley near Sunnyvale California named S-Tron (formerly Tekna) which did cool engineering and military contracts for different branches of service. Anyway, they would hire scientists and others for consulting some of their projects and one real nice guy I became friends with by the name of Richard P. was retired from LLNL Lawrence Livermore National Labs.

He had quite a resume and worked on some really cool projects there. He mentioned doing a project with SRI on the investigation of Uri Geller and his ‘paranormal’ abilities there at Stanford and also in several controlled environmental labs at LLL. Uri was able to manifest the ‘disappearance’ of a big 12lb. chemistry book in front of 12 scientists and investigators without saying one word or touching the book on an empty four post lab table.

Anyway, the gist of this story is his description of an occurrence at the roof of one of the buildings labs during a night when they were doing dark sky background calibrations of sensors that were going to be used an a reconnaissance satellite. He and another engineer were recording the array of sensors spread out on the roof and cooling down when all the sensors began detecting a strong and narrow wavelength source of infrared that appeared to be ‘scanning’ the building from above. They watched this and recorded the event looking up and around for a source of the energy. They could see nothing.

They wrote a summary debrief to their managers including security and several days later they met with several men from an unnamed agency from the East coast. They would not say what agency but, they had full access to all their labs, offices and files. After another debrief with these ‘guys’ Rick asked them what happened and what ‘scanned’ their facility for the 5 minutes or so. One of the men said as he walked out the door “they are our visitors, and you do not have the need to know”.

So, what? Just another story and unknown person blathering about ‘Unknowns’ ….. But there are thousands of us who have many honest stories, and the one thing that remains a constant in all of this is the ‘posture and debunking behavior’ of our government. They are running out of ‘flaccid lies’ to feed us.

Good post, but I'm actually heading the other way.

The weight of government people, astronaut(s), military ppl, and sundry others who have borne witness to various aspects of the UFO story(/coverup) made me believe that we were probably being visited. Especially since a very solid, unexcitable friend has had an inexplicable UFO experience which was accompanied by strange mental phenomena (for want of a better explanation, he felt like something was attempting to communicate with him telepathically, forcefully, while the ufo experience was happening).

But I'm so disillusioned with idiots like that fool from Quantum Research and others who promise the moon w.r.t. evidence, and deliver nothing, that I'm becoming more and more skeptical.

And after all, we don't have any hard evidence which is widely accepted by the scientific community as the product of intelligent non-terrestrials.

Hope you're right... have my doubts. snf4u

edit::
This is actually a very superior post -- I'd only scanned it before posting my comment

[edit on 24-6-2009 by eniac]

Well, as one of "them", the "debunkers", the "stupid and arrogant", and all of the other names that the alien visitation religion calls us when they can't get us to blindly believe in grainy pictures and hearsay, I would have to point out a flaw in some of the "logic" in this thread. There are those pushing the "visitation" agenda who point to "science" accepting theories such as "dark matter" as fact, but not alien visitation. In order for you to believe in alien visitation, you must believe in one of those "wacky science theories" for the craft to get here. Since the likely distace travelled by these aliens would be at least dozens of light years up to thousands of light years or more, and since matter cannot travel at light speed (or faster), you yourself must believe in some faster than light theory to accept aliens visiting. As far as the oft quoted debunkers being so "arrogant to believe that we are the only life out of gazillions of planets" straw man argument, I never say that there aren't aliens "out there". I only point at the exceedingly low possibility that they are visiting Earth. If you suspend all logic and assume that these aliens have FTL capabilities, why are you so arrogant to believe that they must be visiting us?

Originally posted by Dredulous
reply to post by Matteo

 

Im not here to instill fear, I want people to start looking at this whole thing in a very rational way and wake up already! It is time to acknowledge exactly what is being done to our very own people and get ready! I assure you I have an immense amount of disdain for anyone who makes fun of those already in a horrible situation. I am a sceptic hunter (not those who simply dont believe, but those arm chair ones so bent on belittling others) and will take on anyone, and if someone is mocking or impersonating an abductee then they will find out why they call me Dredulous!

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Dredulous]

Oh, for the record, it's these little fantasy stories by the likes of Dredulous and RokNinja that really tip the alien thing from highly unlikely to just plain silly...oops, am I mocking? I guess dredulous is going to get me now.

Sorry OP, no S or F for a baiting topic, but a star for Phage and his usual logical points.

Originally posted by tallcool1
I only point at the exceedingly low possibility that they are visiting Earth. If you suspend all logic and assume that these aliens have FTL capabilities, why are you so arrogant to believe that they must be visiting us?

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the drone hypothesis, which doesn't involve breaking any rules of physics. To quote Dr. Michio Kaku,

By the way if you're type 3 you will explore the galaxy not by sending Captain Kirk on an Enterprise hopping from star system to star system. That would take millions of years to explore the milky way galaxy. The way you'd do it. You would create a robot. Have the robot land on a moon. It would create a factory. It would make millions of copies of itself on this moon, which is quite stable, and send these to other moons. Th[en] each of these would create another factory. Starting with one robot, you would have a million, then a million-million, and a million-million-million, until you had a sphere expanding near the speed of light containing trillions of these robots. ...

For those who are unfamiliar with this particular hypothesis I recommend listening to the whole speech (@ 5:40).



This also potentially explains claims of crashed otherworldly objects. Frankly I have a hard time believing that humans are in possession of such artifact, but if the drone hypothesis is correct who's to say a captured non-human or non-present-day human craft doesn't spread itself throughout the universe by impacting the surface of planetary bodies, deploying sensory equipment and/or manufacturing copies of itself?

For the sake of argument lets imagine there are little green men on Mars and that one of them observed the Mars rover crash land (@ 2:29) to the surface. A Martian skeptic might say, "A non-martian intelligence sent a craft all the way across the solar system, but they couldn't prevent it from crashing into our planet?!"

Sorry OP, no S or F for a baiting topic, but a star for Phage and his usual logical points.

You're working backwards. You don't evaluate a theory and then look for evidence, you look at evidence and construct a hypothesis. Furthermore if you had actually read the original posts you'd notice I wasn't implying the ET hypothesis or the alien flying saucers. I was simply stating that there are many things being observed that probably account for many new and interesting phenomenon worth study.

This is apparently true as we have an example of an anecdotal unidentified phenomenon from the late 1800's that a hundred years later now represents a new and interesting atmospheric phenomenon.

I was extremely clear in my post about my definition of UFO. Please do not conflate UFO to mean alien spacecraft.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Xtraeme]

Originally posted by Xtraeme

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the drone hypothesis, which doesn't involve breaking any rules of physics. To quote Dr. Michio Kaku,

By the way if you're type 3 you will explore the galaxy not by sending Captain Kirk on an Enterprise hopping from star system to star system. That would take millions of years to explore the milky way galaxy. The way you'd do it. You would create a robot. Have the robot land on a moon. It would create a factory. It would make millions of copies of itself on this moon, which is quite stable, and send these to other moons. That each of these would create another factory. Starting with one robot, you would have a million, then a million-million, and a million-million-million, until you had a sphere expanding near the speed of light containing trillions of these robots. ...

So now I am a tiny bit familiar with the drone hypothesis. Yet the very first paragraph of your OP seems to be arguing against simply accepting these theories.

Sorry OP, no S or F for a baiting topic, but a star for Phage and his usual logical points.

You're working backwards. You don't evaluate a theory and then look for evidence, you look at evidence and construct a hypothesis. Furthermore if you had actually read the original posts you'd notice I wasn't implying the ET hypothesis or the alien flying saucers. I was simply stating that there are many things being observed that probably account for many new and interesting phenomenon worth study.

This is apparently true as we have an example of an anecdotal unidentified phenomenon from the late 1800's that a hundred years later now represents a new and interesting atmospheric phenomenon.

I was extremely clear in my post about my definition of UFO. Please do not conflate UFO to mean alien spacecraft.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Xtraeme]

I did actually read the OP. It seems though, in my opinion, that the whole topic was started as an argument against the debunkers who point to a lack of any evidence of UFO's of alien origin. And, although I will admit after re-reading the OP that you did point out that we should investigate the nature of the unidentified phenomenon - and I would agree with you, you had to know that this whole thing would quickly turn into an alien visitation debate.
But you are, in fact, correct. You did state your definition of a UFO clearly. I stand corrected. I am guilty of getting caught up in the whole alien visitation argument again. And since I do agree with you that the unidentified should be studied seriously, I will now star and flag you. And offer my apologies to you. But only to you.

Starred, flagged, and if I had the ability to give you a virtual lollipop, I would Xtraeme. This thread needed to be written and I for one am glad that you've done so in a fact based analysis with reference points coupled with your original thoughts.

The reality however is 'skeptics will be skeptics' regardless of the facts presented. Until one has a personal experience (or a tremendous amount of faith) the topic will be dismissed by the comfortable masses as lunacy.

I, along with several friends were subject to an event that I can only describe as terrifying. Even to this day. I attempted to document this event here at ATS number of years ago and it didn't go so well (I'm sure if you dig a bit you'll find it). I have since completely stopped speaking, documenting new memories, and even backed off of championing the movement. - had high hopes in those day. When I first became a member I attempted to elicit others thoughts by misrepresenting my intent. I claimed I had never witnessed a UFO. My credibility was gone.

The bottom line is, you can have the most brilliant minds on our planet debate this topic until the end of time but until you go through an ordeal like my former friends and I did, you cannot completely accept the unacceptable.

I don't know if they were aliens from another world or an advance race of beings that dwell among us..silently but I assure you they are real. Again, I vow this will be the last time I speak of this. The thread was difficult to write and I was treated very harshly. I don't want to be labeled a kook, hoaxer, or troll. Nor do I want to relive the beating I took after I posted it. I've been a member for several years and do not want to tarnish my already shaky credibility. I love this site and have many friends and colleges here that I rely on to broaden my horizons and expand my own view of my life.
TDH

reply to post by TheDarkHorse


TDH - some of us skeptics actually have had what some of you believers would call an alien sighting. I personally have witnessed something that I still to this day can't explain as any aircraft that I am aware of. When I described it to my dad, he said that him and my uncle saw pretty much the same thing when they were kids - different glowing color though. His was red I believe, mine was green. Glowing balls moving quickly and silently. His in daylight, mine about midnight-ish. Anyway same type of "craft" within a few miles of each other around 30 years apart. His "sighting" was in the 60's and mine was around 1993 or 1994 ish.

Even so, I do not believe it was "alien" I believe that it was some sort of Earthly phenomenon or super secret military craft or something more mundane. You are aware that we are currently operating human made craft designed by humans that we will not even know exist until decades from now or until one gets shot down by Russia again.

I don't think people object to UFOs because of any great intellectual, scientific or rational reasons. Just as many believe in the irrational "scientific" beliefs in contrast with anything resembling common sense, logic, or genuinely science. Reasoning with them is worth a try. You yourself apparently changed your perspective perhaps through some other insights. As I'm sure you know, we can not convert others. Only offer them food and opportunity. Ultimately some of those who are approaching a turning point will be touches and able to change their minds when encouraged to take a different direction.

Originally posted by tallcool1
I did actually read the OP. It seems though, in my opinion, that the whole topic was started as an argument against the debunkers who point to a lack of any evidence of UFO's of alien origin.

I think debunkers are useful. I was one after all, and still am on occassion. However I do take issue with people who form a contrary argument without first looking at the evidence counter to their belief. I apply this both to debunkers and believers. I take particular exception to the common argument that almost all UFOs represent misidentifications when there's ample evidence to the contrary.

And, although I will admit after re-reading the OP that you did point out that we should investigate the nature of the unidentified phenomenon - and I would agree with you, you had to know that this whole thing would quickly turn into an alien visitation debate.

I had hoped that could be side-stepped, but alas, not happening. Though I do wish to thank Phage, IgnoreTheFacts, DoomsdayRex & Nab for being utterly on topic.

But you are, in fact, correct. You did state your definition of a UFO clearly. I stand corrected. I am guilty of getting caught up in the whole alien visitation argument again. And since I do agree with you that the unidentified should be studied seriously, I will now star and flag you. And offer my apologies to you. But only to you.

Though I appreciate the apology, it's entirely unnecessary. It's easy to mix up UFO and "alien spacecraft." Oddly it takes a large mental effort to separate the two.

I truly down to my bones want to see the two subjects separated, because there's quite a bit that could be learned if mainstream science was willing to accept anecdotal evidence as having potential merit. For instance just a few weeks ago someone posted a video of an interesting scintillation on the side of a mountain in Biel, Switzerland.



Sadly no atmospheric scientist will look at this data because it's labeled a UFO. Which is a wholly appropriate descriptor, it appears to be an unknown atmospheric phenomenon perhaps the "hessdalen lights?"

The number of new things we could learn if we were willing to put conservatism behind is awe-inspiring.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Xtraeme]

to TallCool1:
i'd just like to say that i'm not a blind believer in ufos and the 'alien invasion' senario and will admit strait up there is no common scense involved when these beings mentioned. personly i'd love to be 'debunked' so i can get a good nights sleep, but after spending almost my entire life trying to explain away what i've seen, i'm out of ideas. i am scientific minded person (i know its hard to believe) but when all other options are ruled out the remaining one, even if most unlikly must be true.

the theories that they're here to steal are resources or use us for food makes no scense. there are plenty of uninhabited planets out there and why travel the depths of space just for lunch if they can clone/engineer animal/beings.

Michio Kaku explains a lot of misconceptions on common ufo theories, so watch his lectures.

i'd also like to aploigies to the op for getting of topic, i have no interest in making people belive that aliens are here. you have to believe in your own ideas and concepts, just because people chose to sick with what they know doesn't make them ignorant.

the problem with ufo/alien theories is that they are presented as fact with no fundemental investigation of the scientific fact.

to Dredulous:
we should move our dicussion to another thread, this will bring me to 20 posts so i'll start one now.

to Xtraeme:
again i apoligies for getting of topic and draging the topic from its original track. the facts and the theories need to be seperate, so i'll let you guys get back to disscussing the facts of the issue.

reply to post by gormly


Absolutely agree with everything you said. I knew there was a reason you are on my friends list, lol!

reply to post by fleabit


Dear fleabit

From fleabit

“It's laughable because of the media and government responses to sightings. The military branches ignore it as if it's not worthy of attention. After serving in the military for many years, I don't think for a moment that they really feel this way. So it's a ruse. But their attitude generates a no-care attitude with the public. The media can't help but smirk when they report on it. Larry King is the only one I've seen recently who takes this with a straight face and with serious attention.”

This is what was bothering me, as I just couldn’t figure why there where so many credible reports and no interest from the authorities. This at least makes the silence plausible.

If you are looking for a possible reason for your governments attitude to this subject just consider this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...