Urban vs Rural Survival

reply to post by Silver Shadow


Actually, I'm not advocating killing and plundering at all, quite the opposite.

I'm trying to dispense information that will allow someone to survive unmolested if they ever need to. Basically it's about just being left alone and kept out of whatever violent conflict is going on. It's about taking care of yourself and your loved ones and living to see another day together.

I already have a bunch of stuff growing IN my house AND outside...also the outside containers can be brought in so my neighbours can't go plundering my veggies, lol....

I have a lot growing in the ground too, but enough in containers in case I have to load up the camper and lock us in for a while etc...

last winter, loooong story, I had to survive in my van for a while (even though I own a house and was renting a second...had some cray people after me basically) anyways, long story short, it was kinda fun living in the van, even though it was the coldest winter here yet, and there was a huge hole in the side of the van, we did great! Ipod movies, solitaire, blankies, heaters, compost toilet...etc..etc....etc...

reply to post by Shadowflux


This is a very interesting subject to me. Excellent introduction to the topic.

Onward to my input:

My wife and I currently live in a city of a little over 1 million people here in Mexico.. the Sonoran Desert if anyone is familiar. Where I am from in Southeastern Georgia, we own just a little under 20 acres of land that has a few small open structures but for the most part is well wooded with a few paths and a small but overgrown main road that runs almost through the center. There is a small and small-medium sized pond pretty close to each other on the southwest part of the land- to the southeast a small open field with the still standing structures.

Now, where we live currently.. our home is surrounded by a 12 ft concrete wall with an iron gate style two car garage that is (for the most part, our front yard).. no we aren't paranoid.. that is just the style here in this area of Mexico.. which will be convenient when and if the SHTF. In our back yard (which is concrete) we have a small concrete garden with a sun shade partially covering the walk to the back, the garage area and partially the back. We grow a few things on the balcony of our room, as well as a small greenhouse with a sunscreen over the area on the roof.

Now that you know the two areas.. which is my favorite for situations that could arise in the future? Both. It depends.

Weapons? I will not share the makes or models of what I have here due to the fact that there are very strict laws on guns here in Mexico.

In Georgia I have a Colt M1911 .45, a S&W (m36,CS) .38 snub and a 30.30 deer rifle at my parents home. As well as a compound and re-curve bow for deer and hog hunting.

I personally prefer where I am at the moment due to the fact that we have a year supply of food that we rotate with the security of having a home built on the property

I guess it all depends on the situation that we could possibly face. The home here in Mexico is nice due to the fact that it is not in the US.. for obvious reasons in certain circumstances.. that will be a good thing.

I am more accustomed to the area I was born and raised in in Southeast Georgia, and being accustomed is important. I would find it easier to live off the land there, vs having to leave the city here for a smaller area in the desert..

Does anyone here have any experience canning? My wife and I just recently started.. we are new to it.

Thanks again, OP, good topic. It has given me a lot to think about.. I will update with any new thoughts I have.

There are a lot of domesticated animals in the urban areas. Granted there are quite a few in the rural areas but if I was a rancher I would be paying very close attention to my herd if it all went down. Think about how many stray dogs will be running around the city when people disappear. There are also much better opportunities to scavenge for items and preserved food. The obvious downside, which someone else has already stated, is that you are a choice target for a first strike.

I'm just throwing some ideas out there, trying to make the best out of the fact I live in a city. My plan is to drive back to rural Louisiana where my parents live, but I'm a little concerned by driving 1200 miles through a country in choas.

Originally posted by TheEndofEvolution
My plan is to drive back to rural Louisiana where my parents live, but I'm a little concerned by driving 1200 miles through a country in choas.

I think that is the best point I've seen yet. It's better to stay where you are if chaos is already widespread.

After reading the posts here I I feel I can add.

I live in the 'burbs of London, in Sutton in a 7 story tower block comprising of 32 flats ( its quite pleasent and has a bit of a garden in the its own grounds).

There are garages for nearly all flats, so theres more than enough storage space, plus there are hedges around that can be built up.
Over the years of living there ( 7 ) and travelling around on motorcycle I have discovered or at least taken note of what its around and the general layout of the area ( something everyone should do anyway) .
There are a few small shops dotted around the area with the high street and major supermarkets a few minutes ride away.

I have realised that should anything happen ( either fire , flood , snowstorm as in Feb this year, invasion, meteor or whatever) then the people will loot everything easily obtained from the local shops.
The foods will be first to go, both perishable and canned , depending on what the situation is ( it will be the only time when people aren't choosy about what foods they get).
People will grab only what they can carry but seeing as most shops have baskets they will be used , trolleys as well.

Fights will break out depending on the severity of the situation X, just look at the fights and robberies at Ikea in Enfield when that opened to see what people are capable of in the heat of the moment.

Most people will stay at home in the urban environment waiting for the government to send help ( that will never come IMO ).
Their food will dwindle away slowly as they try to wait out the event.
But they will consume their water as normal , flushing the loos and brushing their teeth etc.

The urban dwellers may survive but not if they do not have the right mindset, we are bred to be lazy to trust our governments and to do as we are told, not a good idea should SitX happen.

Those that head to the wilderness may have a slightly more flexible time, but food will be scarce unless thy take a trailer full of canned goods , which even those have an expiry date. The best place IMO is a house witha very large garden and a well or a farm. But as the city masses head out they too will be looted and the livestock killed for BBQ's.

I plan to stockpile food and water , which I have done so for quite a while now, but I need to resupply soon, I am to get foodstuffs that aren't quickly perishable, rice and pastas and canned/bottled food that doesn't need to be refridgerated.

Should the event be severe enough I'm afraid to say one of the first places I'm visiting is one of the local gun shops, of which there are 2 within easy reach of motorcycle.

Its best to take note of what shops / facilites are around and as I have stated in another thread, is notice where the wholesalers are, there are quite a few on the Croydon Purley way where luckily there aren't that many homes and people would have to travel there in cars. So a quick trip there to grab what I can, ( I may have to invest in a motorcycle trailer), it should also be noted where the local DIY shops are for tools and supplies for your home defences.

A lot of the people will simply wait at home , not knowing what to do, or where to start looking to help themselves. They are the ones we 'Survivalists' or paranoid ones are going to have the most trouble with if we remain in the cities or towns as they will panic first then stampede next. They will resort to waiting for help that doesn't come then head out to resupply they're foods, taking what they can and from whom, including breaking into homes and robbing people that they find on the street.

The people will loot everything, and sooner or later everything will be stripped in the cities, for example, you have stockpiled food , guns ammo , you reinforce your door, someone sees your door and thinks it must be hiding food. they try and break it down , you fire off a shot to warn them away, they go, but come back with more people / family / friends who ever, you only have so much ammo remember.
They eventually get in by overpowering you , you either have to run if you can or get beaten up / killed. they raid your supplies, and go.

Someones else comes in and strips your home to the bare floorboars looking for something squirreled away and missed by the raiding party.

Your only choice IMO ( in my daydreams) , is to get a farm and barricade it enough with hedges to look near invisible, I even thought about a high thick hedge all around with a hedge gate for access to you and yours, but looks like a solid hedge all round,but that would require a lot of cash most people don't have including me .

Urban survival can be an option for some. But some things definitely need to be taken into account.

1. Disease. Cholera, dysentery, plague, to name a few. With even a reduced population any disease spread by contact will cause extreme flairups. Rodents will run rampant and sanitation will suffer greatly. A lack of any but the most rudimentary care will be available. Any injury will be life threatening.

2. Pets. You may even have one. There will be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of left behind pets. This is good and bad. It is good in the fact that they may become a steady food supply. It is bad when you consider the pack mentality that will form when Fido meets similar famished animals and must resort back to hunting. Let me tell you from experience, a pack of stray hungry dogs is nothing to snub your nose about. There will be no fear of humans and you will be at best competition for food, at worst you will be supper. Strays should be shot on sight. Sorry ASPCA, the truth hurts.

3. Water. Water will be plentiful for a while. What about after the pumps shut down, and the taps are turned off. Finding water in a rural setting will become a top priority after a prolonged event. For those that are savvy to this, it will become an opportunity. For others a death knell. A smart force will use a water supply for a point of ambush.

4. Food. Food will not be such an issue, as long as you don't mind eating rodents and pets. Edible plants can be found in most parks, but how many others will be out looking for them.

5. Security. Sure you may be good with a gun, and even your hands. Can you spot a sniper in a third story window that knows what they are doing? Gangs will be a problem. But maybe not as much as a hungry mob of people. Don't forget about any military presence. Can you turn away or even shoot a mother with hungry kids? Don't think they wont give away your position in a heartbeat if it will gain them a position or food. Is your position defensible? Can you leave and enter from various positions. Even the most savvy will develop patterns and fall victim to those that watch for them.

Shelter. Sure there will be plenty of places to stay. How many that are well hidden, can be easily defended, and just as easily left. Remember thee may be hundreds of thousands out there too. All with nothing to do put to find your caches and even you. There will be no law or even civilized behavior. Take it fir granted that you are the best prepared in your area. That makes you a target. What about heat in the winter? Do you have fuel to stay warm? Smoke in the same place will give away your position to anyone watching. Critters will follow you everywhere. Are your supplies varmint proof.

People. A book could be written here. Let it be said don't trust them and stay as far away as possible.

Survival in many other aspects will be the same. Many books could and have been written on the subject. I highly recommend Ragnar Benson's book "LIVE OFF THE LAND IN THE CITY OR THE COUNTRY". It is a bare bones book full of useful information that is an easy read. The author states that he is experienced in third world conditions and his advice from my perspective is sound.

Look at some of the third world countries today. Really look at them. There is a lot to learn about the human endeavor from them. If things really go south, civilization as we are used to will collapse. It will be a good idea to see the anarchy and chaos from an outside perspective before you are thrown into one similar.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

My suggestion to this thread is to network. Whether you're in the city, suburbs, or countryside. Start getting out and get to know others in your area, find those with skills and abilities and start learning them from them. You would be surprised at how much you already know and take for granted, that someone else may not know. Get with your local nurseries, and find out what veggies and fruits grow best in your area. The owners are usually full of great ideas and can point you in the right direction to learn more in that area. Take all the CPR, and other classes you can from local hospitals, gov't, etc. I know in my area, they offer a Civilian Emergency Response Training (CERT) class for $25. It's a weekend long, and trains you in all facets of disaster and terrorist response, to include emergency first aid, etc. Start going to your local library and read up on survival skills, and crop growing, and everything else you can. Hit up local auctions, you can find good, cheap priced items to help your survival at them. I have found canning supplies, dehydrators and all kinds of stuff at my local auctions. And get a good map of your area. Start marking areas for evacuation, where to loot resources, and other supplies, just in case.
I hope these ideas will help.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by CaptGhost]

[edit on 25-6-2009 by CaptGhost]

Originally posted by Mainer
There will be no urban survival. If you cant grow or hunt new food where you are you will die.

The ones that don't leave for the country side will eventually just become cannibals when they are hungry enough.

No way would I want to be stuck in a large city. Me and nature all alone with nobody to mess with me is a much better scenario.

reply to post by on_yur_6


Along with about 300 million others that are less prepared than you. Now what? Don't think that anyone is going to get off that easy. The first 90 to 120 days will be hell on earth in any shtf situation. From there it will only go downhill. If there is no infrastructure there will be nothing to rely on. How long will the water companies be able to pump? What happens when no one watches the dams? Gee no trucks traveling where is the food? Winter is starting to set in how do we stay warm? Who puts out the prarie and forest fires? Yep what I wouldn't give to think for one minute that I would be all alone in nature, And I live close to some of the less populated areas in the nation.

respectfuly

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


There is so much land that is not developed in the USA. Just here in Oklahoma I know I could vanish. If anyone got close I know my dogs would pick them up first. That would give me enough time to get ready if that person planned on doing something bad.

I believe most people will stay put because they are afraid to walk away from everything that they have worked for all of their life. Just look at Katrina. Everyone knew a horrible hurricane was coming and still many, many people wouldn't leave their property.

Originally posted by on_yur_6

Originally posted by Mainer
There will be no urban survival. If you cant grow or hunt new food where you are you will die.

The ones that don't leave for the country side will eventually just become cannibals when they are hungry enough.

No way would I want to be stuck in a large city. Me and nature all alone with nobody to mess with me is a much better scenario.

I favour we all head underground and become Morlocks.. Cannibals and bug eyed. yay

Originally posted by DataWraith

Originally posted by on_yur_6

Originally posted by Mainer
There will be no urban survival. If you cant grow or hunt new food where you are you will die.

The ones that don't leave for the country side will eventually just become cannibals when they are hungry enough.

No way would I want to be stuck in a large city. Me and nature all alone with nobody to mess with me is a much better scenario.

I favour we all head underground and become Morlocks.. Cannibals and bug eyed. yay

THAT WHOULD BE AWSOME

I say that we should all become TRANSHUMANS that whould be GREAT

Nice discussion over here.

From my point of view. First you should consider are you RAMBO or a normal FAMILY MAN ? Rambo just needs a knife and whatever moves is your enemy and later your dinner.

I believe most of us are family men, who have to take care about little kids and the mother-in-law.

Now, next question is "what might happen in my area". As I live in the Andeas in South America, in a big city, our fears are Earthquakes and Volcanoes. As I live over 1000 m / 3,300 ft there will be no tsunamis or floodings. No hurricans, tornadoes either, no nuclear event and no foreign treat.

So I focussed on Earthquakes. There are 2 possibilities to consider:

a) Your home is not or only slightly damaged and you have to camp outside for a few days. Your heavy gear will be still at home, for defence, once you get back into your house. Your food is stored at home to survive some time. Remember: Your home is your castle. If you are prepared, they may siege it, but as I say: There are better places to loote than my castle.

2) But if your house is seriously damaged, you have to move on. Forget about Insurance, rebuilding in short time, etc. As living in a big city, you have to move out to the country side. Forget about your car. You probably have to hike. You can carry only some 40 kg / 80 lbs with you. Now that's the most serious challenge to prepare for. What to take and what to leave.

The best would be to prepare your close friends, "nice" neighbours, etc. and go as a group. Your chances are higher to survive, not being like Rambo.

Once you are mobile, forget about the heavy stuff. You are not able to carry food and water to survive 3 month or longer. You need skills to survive, need to know where to find food and water and IMO chances are better to survive in the country side.

So first I would stay in my castle, as long as possible and when all food (or most of it) has been consumed, it's time to move on, with your mobile gear.

Bagpack, tent, sleeping bag, axt & shovel, some cloth, medicine, food, AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE, etc.

I.E. your axt is the best hand-to-hand weapon. Good for chopping trees and heads.

Once you have your survival gear ready at home, look what you can carry and sort things out that could be left behind. The weight you are able to carry is limited and I tell you it is easier to run with a small bagpack rather than with 40 kg / 80 lbs when the mob is chasing you.

Personally I would feel myself "saver" outside the cities. To many zombies, looters, military walking around. Perhaps some snipers too.

If you are Rambo, stay urban. Get your gear from dead people, feed some dogs and they will follow and protect you.

If you are the family man, get out, stay in the country side, woods, build and underground shelter somewhere in the woods and do guerilla warfare. Have a living area shelter and make different combat shelters around your place. Get some of your best friends and family together and defend yourself. Seek and hide from strategic positions. Seach those places now and get familiar with the area.

So, résumé is: Is it a short time situation you expect or the final doomsday ?? Short time: stay where you are, but be prepared. Long time: get out of crowed areas, stay low and mobile and rebuild your life in peace.

If you survive, please rebuild this planet in Peace.

reply to post by KSPigpen


OK Pigpen, I think I have some ideas for you. Even if you choose to remain at home when the SHTF you will still need the same things you would if you were in the woods.
.
Some way to defend yourself - A shotgun or pistol is good for home defense. Even a fake weapon might help you out. If you cannot afford a firearm you can always boobytrap your own home with a little creativity.
Get a dozen mousetraps, they make great triggers and will get mice which may be your only source of fresh protein. Singe off the fur, cook till well-done (they may have deadly hantavirus) and voila!.................

Water source and filtration - the PUR hiker model is $80. Count on water service being cut off. Fill every tub, sink and container at the first sign of trouble. Work out a way to divert rainwater from your gutters into containers, This may be your only source of fresh water!

Make sure to have several oil lamps and lots of oil for lighting.

If you have a woodstove or fireplace, get 3 or 4 cords of wood if you can.

Fortify your home - reinforce your doors, buy 3/4" plywood and have it cut to fit your windows. Have a cordless drill and screws handy'

Create a hidden stash area for firearms and food where it cannot be found if your home is searched.

Stock up on non-perishable food items and medical supplies.

Have a backup plan if you have to leave your home. Where will you go? Is there a 2nd place to go if the first site is compromised? Establish alternate routes to get there. Make sure your kids understand your contingency plans. If you have bicycles make sure the tires are good. Keep your gastank full, you never know if you might need it all.

A shortwave radio with handcrank power might be a good idea too.

At least have 1 good book on outdoor survival - Tom Browns field guide to wilderness survival is one I would reccommend.

Learn which weeds in your yard are edible. Many are including dandelion and plantain.

Garden with non-hybrid vegetable seeds and make planter boxes for your windows.

Have a good first aid book.

Board games and a deck of cards.

I hope these suggestions are helpful.

reply to post by Shadowflux


I agree, urban warfare gives a much greater chance of survival, especially if you are on the offensive. More places to hide, crowds to blend in with, sewers, rainwater drainage, and subway tunnels, and it takes less knowhow and equipment to survive.

Plus, for long-term rural survival you will need to construct a semi-permanent shelter (shanty, log cabin etc.) making it easier for the theoretical enemy to find you. In an urban survival situation you can take shelter under any bridge, in any back alley, or squat in any abandoned building. No permanent shelter equals greater mobility and makes it less likely that you will be discovered.

Rural survival should remain a last resort in a battlefield type situation, but it still holds merit for other catastrophe like; natural disasters, disease epidemics and pandemics, (mumble mumble Zombie Apocalypse mumble), or if the poo is just generally hitting the fan and being around other people isn’t the best idea.

So you are correct about urban survival being the way to go for situations like; homeland defense against invasion, martial law, or coupe/rebellion.

(Sorry if I reiterated anything, I didn’t have time read the whole post, but I wanted to put my two cents in.)

I know this is an older thread, but I'm brand new to ATS and this is actually my first post.

I'm a small town kind of guy, and I've always had a great interest in survivalism and other things associated with it. I'm upgrading myself from armchair to an active survivalist and just thought I'd share some thoughts on the subject.

I believe the best thing to do in an emergency situation is to stick with what you know but carry a willingness to be flexible. I live in a tourist town, booming up to almost 200,000 in the summer and dropping to a little under 25,000 in the off months. There are thousands of cottages and tens of thousands of acres of land that is undeveloped and untouched. I feel secure knowing that I could survive off the land, build my own shelter, protect myself from the elements, and still maintain a decent quality of life. Firewood, natural food stuffs, large and small game, and open water sources are everywhere. This would be my place of choice to survive.

All of the skills I'm training myself in can easily be applied to an urban situation if need be.

The problems with a rural setting I could speculate on are a lack of even the most basic medical supplies, fuel (for generators, vehicles, and powered tools), and a slow recovery time as rural settings would most likely be the last to be visited by military recovery groups. If things on a country wide or even global scale were to become catastrophic I would expect a large migration from cities as people seek shelter in the wilderness away from major military targets. This would create a very desperate situation, as an exodus of unprepared groups and individuals would create an even greater shortage of supplies, assuming a family of 4 takes there SUV, the clothes on there backs, and whatever basic food they have in the cupboards, basic firearms and the gas cans in their garages. At best, they may be able to travel 500km with no access to gas stations and have food to feed their families for under a week.

So, in a rural setting those who were prepared would most likely waste their supplies on helping out those who are leaving the cities, or become the target of families with no food, no gas, no home, and lots of ammunition.

An urban setting I'd imagine may be a slightly better situation providing the use of nuclear, chemical, or biological (perhaps even nano-tech weapons, as the technology progresses) has not been a major factor in the downfall of society. Hundreds of corner stores, grocery stores, warehouses, and malls. There are millions of dollars in supplies that will be abandoned by working class and business men. All that would be left in the cities would be, I assume, families having no where else to go, the homeless, and those prepared to live in the cities. Looting would be a huge factor in the first 48 hours to the end of the first month.

Gradually supplies would shift outwards as more people abandon apartments and homes in search of more food and supplies. Those remaining would have the homes of upwards of a million people, apartments, abandoned and disused vehicles, and empty stores. Clothing and shelter would be two very easy things to find and use. Heating and cooking would be easy, as I imagine through out the suburbs of the cites every home would have a propane tank for their bbq's, which I imagine most people wouldn't be smart enough to bring with them in a rush. And who's first thoughts on looting would be of such a simple resource? Water, for a few months, would be easy to find in a city. Toilet tanks, hot water tanks, and billions of bottles of water.

The hardest thing to deal with in the cities would be first of all fire; a simple cooking fire gone wrong in a city full of buildings side by side and no fire department would be devastating to the urban survivalist. Disease would be difficult to deal with, uncollected garbage and unmaintained sewers would fester. And the large scale production of food for a family would be hard at best.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Sure there is soil in the city but it sucks for growing anything it's all washed out no nutrients, Also I wouldnt call hunting big game in a rural setting a pipe dream I would call it pretty easy, then again most people in the city dont own guns and the ones who do havent got a clue on how to actually hit what they aimed at.

reply to post by FrancoUn-American


Soil in the city does suck but you could fix that by burning it to kill the yuckies in it then use compost to put the good yuckies into it.
There are several options.