Here is why God doesn't exist.

reply to post by Oatmeal
understood ,but these statements come in presnt tense and that makes them his ,and i'm still rolling on this one

reply to post by Nyte Angel


I believe God exists but I also believe that there are powers in this world that can circumvent God's power.

Evil is like a computer virus, they can wreak havoc on your computer and mess the files (us, humans) but that doesn't make them any more powerful than your computer(The Universe). All you(role-playing God) need to do is re-flash your hard drive, install a more effective anti-virus and you're set to go!

I doesn't happen so soon because the heavenlies are operating on a vastly different time scale that we do.

That's why patience is a virtue. The proof that God doesn't exist is just a proof that you've ran out of patience! We need patience pls even if you don't believe in God, hot-heads are the least we need at these dark times!

Being raised and schooled as a catholic I really never had a choice. However, I always remember asking my Dad "who made God"? His answer, "The aliens" he is not catholic by the way
At that point in time it was confusing, now I really appreciate that comment. Sorry not to contribute anything but a light hearted remark but it always makes me smile

Weak reasoning.
Fail.
Next

Originally posted by Nyte Angel

5. Therefore, God doesn't exist or is a masochistic bastard. QED.

Don't they mean 'sadistic'?

Anyway, this is not proof God doesn't exist. I wouldn't say it's completely without merit though.

I remember the true story about a family whose little daughter died. They buried her in a tomb. Many years later the brother died. They took him to the same tomb to bury him, opened the tomb, and they found a little skeleton lying next to the door. Apparently the little girl wasn't really dead and they accidently buried her alive where she crawled to the door and died there. It's things like this that make me question God. I sometimes like to hope that God took her little living body to heaven and replaced it with a set of fake bones so he wouldn't leave any trace of his having been there. That's just the only way I can justify the things God allows to happen. If I haven't had strange, paranormal experiences in my life that lead me to believe there must be somebody out there, I probably would have turned into an atheist by now.

Here's my take. If there is a "god", it's purely a subjective thing. You must experience it for yourself to understand it.

Given the accounts of all religions, spiritual gurus, explorers of OOBE and other realms, I would say that our local reality is an experiment for growth purposes.

This "god", or mind-being-thing, would create thousands of virtual realities within itself for interaction purposes. In reality, everything is mind. The external world is digital, not really physical as you view it. Movement, locality, space, it's all an illusion. Nothing fundamentally moves anywhere. It's all one self-contained thing.

So suffering, pain, etc. It's part of our reality system, but not fundamental to reality. In a sense, we have created all this suffering and pain ourselves by refusing to accpect that we are all part of the same thing. We fractionalize everything, and draw fearful lines. In reality, it's all the same thing fundamentally.

The trick is to set-up simulations and run them for interaction of itself. This mind-being-thing is actually subject to an evolutionary process too. It's trying to figure itself out, just as we are. We are a chip off of it, but not actually seperate. It all grows together.

Just a brief theory.

Originally posted by Nyte Angel
I found this on facebook, thought it would be a good read for the rest of the ATS users:

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Topic: Here is why God doesn't exist. The hell am I reading 600+ pages of your crappy arguments. My logic is flawless.

Dominic Hinkins (Cambridge) wrote on June 11, 2008 at 11:18am

Just my thoughts from my beliefs.

1. Suffering exists.
Didn't used to. Not in the garden. We rejected God so now we have to live in a world without God. This is so we can see what existence would be like without him so that when we return to him we appreciate it. That's why they were sent out of the garden. To see what existence is like when removed from God in a world controlled by man and his free will instead.
Yes we suffer because that's what happens when you're removed from God. There's no one there to fix it all the time.

2. If God exists and is worth worshiping, he doesn't want us to suffer, and can stop suffering at will
Only if you give up your free will. If you choose to hurt someone or make the world a worse place, the only way God could stop that is by taking your freewill away and saying no you can't do that. God wouldn't take free will away from a creature that still wanted it either would he? If a human takes your free will we call that brainwashing don't we? When a government takes your free will away we call it oppression don't we? Do you want someone to interfere all the time or not? Make up your mind.

3. It's not because of our sins because babies also suffer and haven't had time to sin
It's not because of our sins that babies suffer? Parents Behaving Badly
Are you sure?

4. It's not original sin because animals suffer too, and they haven't done anything.
No where in the Bible does it say that only you would suffer from your sin. If I kick a dog it suffers, but not because of its sin. Because of mine. That's one reason right there why sin is bad. Because the innocent that have done nothing wrong have to suffer because of someone else's sin.

5. Therefore, God doesn't exist or is a masochistic bastard. QED.
This world is controlled by governments. It's the governement's made by man that causes all the suffering on this planet. Don't blame God for what you and I have done. You believe in evolution and that God doesn't exist but you're still trying to blame all the suffering on God. Why? If he doesn't exist there's only one thing you can blame right? Humans. It's not God. If he's real or not it's humans causing the suffering. Yet even though you don't believe in him you still sound mad at him about all the suffering. Well what's he supposed to do? He doesn't exist remember? Is something inside you telling you something you're not listening to?

Oh, and if you're going to say FREE WILL, then may I remind you that if God can't create a perfect world AND STILL have free will for us, he can't do everything.
God did create a perfect world. Right here with nature completely in balance. It's us that made it imperfect. It's us that polluted it. It's us that wasted its natural resources. God could create another perfect world for you to, but if your just going to tear it up. If we're foolish with our first world, why would he give us another to destroy?

NEXT ARGUMENT: YOUR specific religion isn't the right one
1. The only evidence you have for your holy book/religion being worth more than someone else's holy book is that you are convinced it's so

I have evidence, but you would never believe it as evidence. Everything I would provide you would say is fake and immediately try to debunk it and if you could not you would simply say well one day we'll prove it's fake. So, what good is evidence to you?

2. Lots of people are convinced by lots of different holy books/religions
3. they can't all be right
Probably not. Unless they're multiple Gods perhaps.

4. therefore it's possible to be utterly convinced and wrong
Yes it is. I have considered that I may be wrong. Have you?

5. the chances of your religion being the right one--it has an equal chance as ALL other possible religions--are a billion to one
They're are a billion religions?
6. your religion probably isn't right.
I take it you're not big on playing the lottery are you?

NEXT ARGUMENT: the world doesn't need your God to exist.
Well I'm not an IDer or hardliner creationist. I never really thought it did. The universe doesn't require that I have pants on, but I do have pants on. Just because the universe doesn't require it doesn't mean it isn't so.

1. Before the big bang there was no time and therefore no cause is necessary
What's your cause for writing this then if there is no cause for anything?

2. If the universe requires a creator because it's complex, so does God
Well I'm not an IDer but they would point to information theory and say that a complex system doesn't need a creator, but one that contains information does because information can only be produced by the conscious. I don't know about all that junk.

However, in contrast I'll say this. If you believe in evolution then that means on the other hand if the universe or life doesn't require a creator then neither would God. He could have evolved too in some fashion. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Also, by the very definition of being a God he could create himself really.

3. If God doesn't require a creator because he's always been there, then it would be simpler for the universe to have always been there since it's a random collection of energy and not a sentient all powerful timeless bearded man.

It would be, but the universe hasn't always been here. It started with a bang remember? And it's expanding into infinity which means the big crunch will probably never happen like they once thought. Also, why do people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that God always existed, but they have no problem accepting the idea that the universe always existed? However, we know that in fact the universe did not always exist.

4. We evolved, deal with it
From the way humans act I think a better term would be devolved. We treat each other worse than animals do and we call that evolution?

[edit on 16-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 16-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Posted by Tinfoilman:

I have evidence, but you would never believe it as evidence. Everything I would provide you would say is fake and immediately try to debunk it and if you could not you would simply say well one day we'll prove it's fake.

Wrong. Believers believe without the need for evidence (faith) and a skeptic requires evidence. If evidence was provided then the skeptic would believe what the religious believer believes.

Many think "Believers" are gullible, close minded and irrational not because of their belief but because of the "logic" they use in supporting and "proving" it, plus their unwillingness to accept evidence that goes against that belief.


Skeptics have a useful foundation of scientific knowledge and an aptitude for following the scientific method. These tools allow us to distinguish poor quality evidence from good quality evidence.

And, importantly, they help restrain us from drawing poorly supported conclusions from the evidence that we do accept, no matter how strongly we want those conclusions to be justified.

Originally posted by tobiascore
So suffering, pain, etc. It's part of our reality system, but not fundamental to reality. In a sense, we have created all this suffering and pain ourselves by refusing to accpect that we are all part of the same thing. We fractionalize everything, and draw fearful lines. In reality, it's all the same thing fundamentally.

This is so true. This is true for some isolated peaceful tribes that has existed in peace indefinitely until corrupted by evil, 'civilized men'

Yeah Yeah, whenever you hear the word 'civilized' the meaning is exactly the opposite in reality!

Originally posted by Daniem

Wrong. Believers believe without the need for evidence (faith) and a skeptic requires evidence. If evidence was provided then the skeptic would believe what the religious believer believes.

Many think "Believers" are gullible, close minded and irrational not because of their belief but because of the "logic" they use in supporting and "proving" it, plus their unwillingness to accept evidence that goes against that belief.

Skeptics have a useful foundation of scientific knowledge and an aptitude for following the scientific method. These tools allow us to distinguish poor quality evidence from good quality evidence.

And, importantly, they help restrain us from drawing poorly supported conclusions from the evidence that we do accept, no matter how strongly we want those conclusions to be justified.

I am a skeptic, and I could say you are not or at least your knowledge of science is outdated or you need more stuff to learn.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are huge structures in the universe that barely looks like any man but has the qualities of a God. It's still uncertain whether there's a creator of all things, but I choose to assume there is, just as some believes in a big bang(which is yet to be proved, I'm also researching the matter as well). So I keep searching out in the cosmos for such evidence and I'm also learning a great deal in the process. Belief in God has nothing to do with the desire to learn without bounds!

[edit on 16-6-2009 by ahnggk]

As a firm believer in God, I will answer as best I can. Although I do want to preface that I think it is both arrogant and absurd to think that we as humans can or should understand the meaning of everything.

1. Suffering exists. 2. If God exists and is worth worshiping, he doesn't want us to suffer, and can stop suffering at will 3. It's not because of our sins because babies also suffer and haven't had time to sin 4. It's not original sin because animals suffer too, and they haven't done anything. 5. Therefore, God doesn't exist or is a masochistic bastard. QED.

Isolated, suffering is a tragic sad thing. However, suffering is also how people usually learn. Learn from their mistakes, or the mistakes of other. Or learn from the suffering of innocents the value of sacrifice and giving. Without suffering, most people would be incapable of appreciating the small things in life. They would take most things for granted. Without suffering many people would not learn the need to give, and to help, and to lend a hand, and to sacrifice. Sadly, part of human nature is that most cannot fully appreciate the greatest things in life without having suffered or seen suffering themselves. Eliminate suffering in our world, and while there would be less pain, there would also be less joy, service to humanity or sacrifice. It would become more of selfish world. And given how selfish the world already is, that would be a sad sad place. As parents at times must let their children experience hardship and suffering to learn, so it is with God with us as His children.

NEXT ARGUMENT: YOUR specific religion isn't the right one
1. The only evidence you have for your holy book/religion being worth more than someone else's holy book is that you are convinced it's so
2. Lots of people are convinced by lots of different holy books/religions
3. they can't all be right
4. therefore it's possible to be utterly convinced and wrong
5. the chances of your religion being the right one--it has an equal chance as ALL other possible religions--are a billion to one
6. your religion probably isn't right.

A religion being the right one or wrong one in no way changes what the truth or God's intentions are. The fact that according to this argument, all religions are wrong besides one, does not mean than God doesn't exist. Religion is just the lens that man view God through. The lens does not have anything to do with the existence of God.

NEXT ARGUMENT: the world doesn't need your God to exist.
1. Before the big bang there was no time and therefore no cause is necessary
2. If the universe requires a creator because it's complex, so does God
3. If God doesn't require a creator because he's always been there, then it would be simpler for the universe to have always been there since it's a random collection of energy and not a sentient all powerful timeless bearded man
4. We evolved, deal with it

Evolution is not proof of God's absence. In fact many would argue it is proof of God's existence. To argue that evolution is against God is small minded and illogical.

Argument #3 here is making the point that things would be simpler for them to have always existed. Why does simple matter? Why does a matter of simplicity have any bearing on the existence of God? Keep in mind, to God, our creation was simple. Simple or difficult are human concepts. Complexity as an argument for God's existence is also small minded, for that is a human concept. With God all things are possible. There are no constraints. Simple or complex or any other human concept concerning skill or effort are not applicable to God. Those are concepts for limited beings and creatures. In and of itself, that makes these concepts non-applicable to God.

CONCLUSION
There might be a God, but there probably isn't, and not the one you thought of, and he obviously doesn't care much about us...He may be skinny, shirtless and hung on a cross, but he's still santa claus.

God and the belief in God has been and always will be a matter of faith. Faith is the belief of something without easy to recognize proof. The post of both the OP and the gentleman from Cambridge is completely about a lack of faith, which is understandable. What I would ask is, why does there have to be proof for you to believe? Why does everything have to make sense for you to believe? The inability to believe in or trust something that hasn't been guaranteed is a personal weakness more often than not, rooted in that person's personal history.

Anecdotally, I would point out that those that are open to having faith in God without proof, usually learn so much that they find they own version of proof that no amount of logic or philosophy can dissuade.

Lastly, it is amusing to even have this conversation. Our view point as people has about as limited perspective as an atom contemplating its meaning and the meaning of cells as they are viewed by the atom. Our ability to see and contemplate is probably even more limited than that.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by johnny2127]

Originally posted by Nyte Angel

My logic is flawless.

Oh really . . .

Dominic Hinkins (Cambridge) wrote on June 11, 2008 at 11:18am

Apparently haughty Hinkins needs to be put in his place.

2. If God exists and is worth worshiping, he doesn't want us to suffer,

argumentum ad consequentiam

3. It's not because of our sins because babies also suffer and haven't had time to sin

baseless assertion

4. It's not original sin because animals suffer too, and they haven't done anything.

baseless assertion

5. Therefore, God doesn't exist or is a masochistic bastard. QED.

False dichotomy.

(Oh, and if you're going to say FREE WILL, then may I remind you that if God can't create a perfect world AND STILL have free will for us, he can't do everything.

baseless assertion

Nor does the existence of pleasure require pain so we 'appreciate it more': If God said it didn't have to, it wouldn't have to)

Pain is very important; it doesn’t exist solely as a contrast to pleasure.

NEXT ARGUMENT: YOUR specific religion isn't the right one

Ignoratio elenchi

1. The only evidence you have for your holy book/religion being worth more than someone else's holy book is that you are convinced it's so

Baseless assertion

2. Lots of people are convinced by lots of different holy books/religions

Apparently True?!? Amazing

3. they can't all be right

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Yes they can.

4. therefore it's possible to be utterly convinced and wrong

Of course you can be utterly convinced and wrong. Thank you for stating the obvious Dominic.

5. the chances of your religion being the right one--it has an equal chance as ALL other possible religions--are a billion to one

ridiculously absurd baseless assertion.

6. your religion probably isn't right.

Baseless assertion.

NEXT ARGUMENT: the world doesn't need your God to exist.

Ignoratio elenchi

1. Before the big bang there was no time and therefore no cause is necessary

Baseless assertion

2. If the universe requires a creator because it's complex, so does God

um hoc ergo propter hoc

3. If God doesn't require a creator because he's always been there, then it would be simpler for the universe to have always been there since it's a random collection of energy and not a sentient all powerful timeless bearded man

baseless assertion that appeals to redicule.

4. We evolved, deal with it

Baseless assertion.

CONCLUSION
There might be a God, but there probably isn't, and not the one you thought of, and he obviously doesn't care much about us...He may be skinny, shirtless and hung on a cross, but he's still santa claus.

Baseless assertion which appeals to redicule.

might i add that there was quite a lot of cherry picking on that slippery slope . . .

-----------------------------

Thoughts?

That was some of the most illogical rubbish i've ever rehd in my entire life.

[edit on 6/16/2009 by JPhish]

Originally posted by Nyte Angel
I found this on facebook, thought it would be a good read for the rest of the ATS users:

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Topic: Here is why God doesn't exist. The hell am I reading 600+ pages of your crappy arguments. My logic is flawless.

Dominic Hinkins (Cambridge) wrote on June 11, 2008 at 11:18am

1. Suffering exists.
2. If God exists and is worth worshiping, he doesn't want us to suffer, and can stop suffering at will
3. It's not because of our sins because babies also suffer and haven't had time to sin
4. It's not original sin because animals suffer too, and they haven't done anything.
5. Therefore, God doesn't exist or is a masochistic bastard. QED.

(Oh, and if you're going to say FREE WILL, then may I remind you that if God can't create a perfect world AND STILL have free will for us, he can't do everything. Nor does the existence of pleasure require pain so we 'appreciate it more': If God said it didn't have to, it wouldn't have to)

NEXT ARGUMENT: YOUR specific religion isn't the right one
1. The only evidence you have for your holy book/religion being worth more than someone else's holy book is that you are convinced it's so
2. Lots of people are convinced by lots of different holy books/religions
3. they can't all be right
4. therefore it's possible to be utterly convinced and wrong
5. the chances of your religion being the right one--it has an equal chance as ALL other possible religions--are a billion to one
6. your religion probably isn't right.

NEXT ARGUMENT: the world doesn't need your God to exist.
1. Before the big bang there was no time and therefore no cause is necessary
2. If the universe requires a creator because it's complex, so does God
3. If God doesn't require a creator because he's always been there, then it would be simpler for the universe to have always been there since it's a random collection of energy and not a sentient all powerful timeless bearded man
4. We evolved, deal with it

CONCLUSION
There might be a God, but there probably isn't, and not the one you thought of, and he obviously doesn't care much about us...He may be skinny, shirtless and hung on a cross, but he's still santa claus.

-----------------------------

Thoughts?

My Belief is that we CHOOSE to incarnate in this reality for spiritual enlightenment. Our original residing place as a being of light is exactly the opposite of everything here on this planet. No suffering, No Pain, Sin, only love!. I believe Earth is kindergarden, for souls to learn, experience & observe the fundamentals of spiritual enlightment. No Religon is necessary, no judgement, no hell! Only how advanced as Souls we become is at stake! Everyone must follow their own path. Everyone is responsible for their own path. Your conscience will guide you, if you choose to listen. We are here to experience everything good and bad, and yes, we can influence and are responsible for how much good or bad we experience, allowing Ignorance, Selfishness & Greed etc into our lives, we allow our definition of evil to exist.

Humans love playing the Blame Game, we will blame everyone but ourselves whenever something bad happens. If we need to blame anyone we should all have a hard look in the mirror! Yes I know we have all been manipulated and kept ignorant for a longggg time now and this has not helped our parents and grandparents create the world we all long for. However we all have something now that none of them ever had and thats access to massive amounts of information about what is really going on in the World today. Its your choice whatever you decide to do with this information. But I tell you this, I don't think our grandchildren will be as forgiving, if we allow the World to continue on its present course because of our ignorance and selfishness.

Originally posted by Nyte Angel
I found this on facebook, thought it would be a good read for the rest of the ATS users:

-------------------------------------------

Topic: Here is why God doesn't exist. The hell am I reading 600+ pages of your crappy arguments. My logic is flawless.

Dominic Hinkins (Cambridge) wrote on June 11, 2008 at 11:18am

4. We evolved, deal with it

It's true. I saw a half fish with a human head, lizard tail and monkey arms come crawling on land last week at the beach.If we evolved their would still be species at different phases of the evolution ladder and scientists would have found the link/connection they were looking for that doesn't exist.

Evolution is flawed and I'll stick to my belief in a man from history and his (as you non believers put it) imaginary father.

CONCLUSION
There might be a God, but there probably isn't, and not the one you thought of, and he obviously doesn't care much about us...He may be skinny, shirtless and hung on a cross, but he's still santa claus.

-----------------------------

Thoughts?

I love how this educated moron contradicts himself.

Dominic Hinkins (Cambridge) wrote on June 11, 2008 at 11:18am

Topic: Here is why God doesn't exist

...................then goes on to state.............

There might be a God, but there probably isn't,

First it's a definitive fact there's NO God then goes on to state his uncertainty there might be. Even this pathetic sap, deep in his lonely soul is hoping there's a God. Without a God there's NO HOPE of anything worthy. Just a useless existence of nothing.

What's even sadder is his use of all religion as his topic but these always turn out to be of anti-Christian sentiment.

He may be skinny, shirtless and hung on a cross, but he's still santa claus.

obviously a reference to the Almighty CHRIST and his dcelebrated day of birth.

Fact is it doesn't matter. Believe what you want because only time will tell and death will reveal. If it helps people to live better and more peacebly than accept it for what it's worth, it could be worse. This is what keeps many like me civilized and on a leash because as far as I'm concerned, man is spoiled, selfish and ungrateful and deserves to suffer.Nothing but a bunch of ungrateful bastards.

I'm personally sick of these educated I don't have a shred of common sense ivy league educated mopes who are entirley clueless and their major life experience revolved around a book.When reality hits it will weed out humanity. unfortunately this is a much needed event which needs to happen sooner than later.

Humanity with all it's education and self procl;aimed civility still and NEVER will live peacebly amonmgst eachother. Everyone's on their own little pedestal and the smarter people become the more arogant and self righteous they ar, holding their nose and opinions above everyone else.

God is everyone's only hope for peace.Without him there is NOTHING.

God does exist. She told me.

Originally posted by Daniem
Posted by Tinfoilman:

I have evidence, but you would never believe it as evidence. Everything I would provide you would say is fake and immediately try to debunk it and if you could not you would simply say well one day we'll prove it's fake.

Wrong. Believers believe without the need for evidence (faith) and a skeptic requires evidence. If evidence was provided then the skeptic would believe what the religious believer believes.

Many think "Believers" are gullible, close minded and irrational not because of their belief but because of the "logic" they use in supporting and "proving" it, plus their unwillingness to accept evidence that goes against that belief.


Skeptics have a useful foundation of scientific knowledge and an aptitude for following the scientific method. These tools allow us to distinguish poor quality evidence from good quality evidence.

And, importantly, they help restrain us from drawing poorly supported conclusions from the evidence that we do accept, no matter how strongly we want those conclusions to be justified.

See, I haven't even told you what it is and you already said WRONG!!!! It shows your bias. It shows you're unwilling to even look at it if I had it. That's why you'll never see it.

Edit: I realised that my original reply was long and boring. I guess that's saying something when you are talking about your own writing hey.

Basically, we humans are capable of many profound things but essentially we are very limited in our ability to understand things which do not take place in the realm of the physical world. When we try to discuss things that are not from this world or language, we struggle because we are dependent on these things in order for ideas to make sense.

Some counters to the "arguments" this bozo [Dominic Hinkins, not OP] is presenting:

- Pleasure and prosperity exist. Does this prove that the devil does not or can not exist?

- Suffering is a negative concept. But it is one that is universally apparent in all peoples around the world. No man that has lived has never not suffered. Perhaps this suggests that suffering is a necessity of some form.

- What about this saying: "it is the worst of situations that bring out the best of people." This saying is very true when you consider history. Even if you consider past events in your own life, you can see this message has some truth to it.

- It is likely man has deviated and corrupted the original messages from God for social, political or secretive purposes. This may be why there are so many religions and further denominations. Maybe it is only in the life to come that all of this is explained and put into context.

-------------------------------------------------------

Something else to consider:

A group of ants in my back garden might think of my neighbourhood as a type of universe. Imagine if we were really akin to ants in our relation to the universe and that which surrounds us. Or even bacteria and other microscopic organisms.

What if one strand of grass was more representative of the actual size of our Earth in the true space of everything and anything that exists and surrounds it? Interesting, is it not?

[edit on 16/6/2009 by Dark Ghost]

[edit on 16/6/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by tinfoilman

See, I haven't even told you what it is and you already said WRONG!!!!

I didnt say your evidence is wrong, i havent seen it yet (!!!!) What do you think i am? Close minded or something?

I say its wrong that everything you would provide we would say is fake and immediately try to debunk it. We would first debunk it, THEN say its fake.

I have evidence, but you would never believe it as evidence.

If you have scientific evidence that proves without a doubt the existance of the god from the bible then by all means.

Now regardless of evidence, it is possible that all the imagined gods, deities, pink unicorns, elves and dwarves exist somewhere, you cant say they definitly dont, but you need faith to believe they do.

So convince us with your evidence then, or didnt you have any after all?

ok heres why god does exist - its to do with the start of the universe and how something came from nothing.

ok lets see, something coming from nothing - well nothing if you take a long think about it is something - so to have nothing you have something. so nothing is something so how do you get your head around that - well to have a true nothingness there can be no observation - because as soon as you observe nothing you have something - so to create something from nothing you need observation. a rock does not have observation so that couldnt be that making something out of nothing so you need something intelligent that can observe to create something out of nothing. (GOD)

now have a think about infinity and the opposite of infinity and consciousness and how that could not of started and never end just is.

And my logic is flawless!! Sounds like a flawed logic

Science isnt going to help you to remember what you already know. You dont need belief when truth is self evident, this is the concept of gnosis.