Convince me, Please.

reply to post by MrGummyPants


Keep in mind. If its hard for you to prove to someone else that you exist. Then can you really prove anything??? Without a doubt??

Science suffers from this problem. Any scientific argument relies on an assumption which cannot be proven, every one. You must accept it by "faith". EVEN ATHEISM IS A FAITH BASED BELIEF

Assuming God does exist...How much more can He really do to convince you he does?

reply to post by MrGummyPants


You have been posting around the internet havent you.

Whats the point in me or anyone else telling you what to believe?
Find out for yourself by reading the information available to you, you have the internet and I am sure you can find some holy books if you want both sides of the argument.

You are inviting someone to ram their stance down your throat regardless of reason here.

More importantly though if you have some knowledge first of all, then you can ask a proper question about a specific thing rather than firing everywhere if you get me.



[edit on 11-6-2009 by XXXN3O]

I think you should start with what makes you. why do you need someone to convince you that something of a higher energy( POWER) created this. It doesnt have to be written in a book to know that we are not self made. Look at our babies we have to have either been brought hear, made at adult hood or evolved from something else, but even then there still needed to be food and water so what created that. a specific god or spiritual leader can be fuul of it but deep down you know something greater made this.. what it is no one knows, and there isnt a book that will convince me of it. the bible even say man is not perfect and evil at some points. that right there says it all. the belief is with in you not through someones books or feeling but with you!

The evidence for God is everywhere. An eyeball can't see itself, unless there is a mirror. Ok enough cryptology.

1st and foremost, we have a high percentage (80-90's) of people in hospitals in circumstances involving flat lining, critical conditions, etc ... who report near death experiences. We have hundreds, perhaps thousands of books on this matter.

Ok so you say, "That's easy, brain synapses/neurons, etc still firing off" In that matter I send you off to research the NDE of Dannion Brinkly having a 2 hour NDE with zero brain activity. This occurs many many times in the case of NDE's, as well as recalling things being done/said in other hospital rooms, building, places, etc.
_________
Of all our 5-6, if not more, senses that we have, we can all agree on 1 thing. They are very limited. Our eye sight only see's in a specific spectrum of light frequency paling in comparison to the eyesight of say an owl, lion, eagle, tiger, etc.

Smell pales to that of a blood hound, hearing pales to that of bats and many other animals/critters, same going for taste, touch and everything else.

So if all our senses are so limited, just imagine all the things we are missing out on, that are going on all around us at any given time
___________
Science studies physical matter. Science does not look or study God, the soul, etc. There are no tools/instruments subtle enough yet invented to pickup on the energies of spiritual matter, soul, God, etc

Only in the last 30-50 years with the advent of quantum science (physics, mechanics, etc) is science slowly and gradually encroaching on spiritual matter and realities, but this will still take time.

Just like religion, science has boxed itself in. You have the top scientists who are like the pope, or Imam, who run all the funding, approvals of what is studied, who gets into academia and who does not. God forbid (pun intended) that someone write their dissertation on anything related to spirituality or God, will immediately be labeled as "psuedo science"

The fact is we should be specifically studying "psuedo science" anamolies, and so on. The results of some experiments giving different outcomes every time is the answer of that experiment. Instead we have these rules that say results have to always reproduce the same results for something to be fact, but there are areas where this just doesnt work(the observer's observation also influences an experiment) bringing me to the next point.

The idea of airplanes, or "flying machines" in the 1400's would be labeled as "psuedo science", quakery, witches, demonic, heretical, etc leading to the next point:

The foundations of science are shaky. We keep seeing loopholes in science where there are rules and laws that apply to things, but then ways around them are found. Meaning that any day, a theory of everything can be discovered that undermines and completely destroys everything we think we know is the stat quo today.

Don't believe me? It's happened in the past with the discovery of the quantum sciences. The elders (scientists at the top) fought tooth and nail to disprove and get rid of this sub-genre. The scientific discoveries/beliefs 100 - 300 years ago look foolish/childish to us today. Imagine what the world 300 years from now will think about the science of 2009. Ha!!!!!
_________
Atheism is partially correct so you have one aspect of it down pact. The part that is correct is that anything that the mind conjures up as to what/who/where God is, becomes a mental thought/construct/idea and God is not a thought/construct/idea. That is perhaps why you have a problem with religion and the idea of God.

However it seems you are too wrapped up in science having all the answers. You must realize science/spirituality/God go hand in hand.
_________
Religion is basically a muddied up, greedy, corrupted, and constructed bunch of organizations based on ideas of what people think God is. Since we both agree religion sux, let us move on to a different terminology; spirituality.
__________
Spirituality is something tapped into while in meditation, an NDE, a glimpse beyond your mind/thought, going deep within, self inquiry, or a vast array of other ways.

God is basically the underlying reality of all things, within all matter and all matter within God. So of course its difficult to comprehend and see when everything you are looking at and even you yourself have God within it all. i.e. the eye can't see itself.

Let us not go the route of a childish idea that God is some bearded guy living on a cloud hurling lightning bolts at sinners and raining down rose petals on saints. That's stupid, let's move on.

When you strip down all of reality, the ego, the mind, awareness, presence, etc behind all of that is God. And so the spiritual journey is one of stripping down all of those things so only seeing God is left.

How does this work with science? Look up higgs bosons. Look up Bose/Einstein condensate and you will see there how matter has to transform to see God which also works the same way for us;

_____
There is no point in arguing God/No God ..that is all mind/intellect based when God is beyond the mind/intellect. So those who have gone there and seen God are right and speak truth. Those that haven't are also right because they themselves haven't gone there and haven't seen, so saying there is "no God" is right to those people. But as objective truth you're wrong.

It comes down to direct experience of this. Read, discuss, debate all you want. At the end of the day it comes down to those who experience God and those who don't. The truth and the answers are all in direct experience of God.
_______
My friend, I can gather from the way you write and think, especially since you already tried Xtianity, that the best thing for you would be Advaita, Nondulaity, Vasistha, self inquiry, meditation, cloud of unknowing. Simply because you are very mind/intellect/thinking based and because of that, those I mentioned above would work wonders for you!!!!

Basically what happens with the above paths/ways is that you use your intellect/mind so much, wrestling with what is said/written in those topics, that eventually your mind/intellect reaches its own ends, or tires itself out and pauses for a few seconds. There at the end of mind/intellect, at the pause, you will see/experience God.

Until then however, you are simply a speculator. Blunt and to the point I dont care how much it bothers your ego for me to say that. Just a speculator. The ego/mind/intellect is in the way of seeing God, those aspects block God. Look past them and a whole new world will open up for you my friend. Then we will celebrate with confetti, balloons, praise, song & dance at your awakening.
______
Xtian path is simply give yourself over to Jesus. Faith and trust. For certain minded people this won't work. So going through the other paths I mentioned above and experiencing God for yourself, will eventually bring you back to Xtianity and everything Jesus said, will then in your spiritually awakened enlightenment become truth.

Until then its all words, ideas, thoughts and non of those are God.

reply to post by MrGummyPants

"I think, therefore I am" Meaning, if i can conceive but a thought, constrew a concept in my head, then i must exist in someway. Even if i was dreaming, the fact i think is evidence for my existence. In many ways, you can never prove your own existence to others. Good point mate, well taken.

Just wanted to add 1 more thing, though I already basically wrote a giant book in my post above.

I remember when I woke up spiritually, or basically saw past the mind/thinking/ego. On that day I realized that "I think, therefor I am" is all pure bullsh**

The correct way that should be said is, "I am, therefor I think"

That Am-ness of you has been since you were a baby. You weren't thinking when you were 1 hours' old, or even 1 month old, there were no thoughts, just the Am-ness of you being.

But even to say, "I am, therefor I think" is soooo ego based, and the ego blocks God from being seen/experienced.

Get rid of the I Am-ing and the I thinking, and what is there? What is there behind it all, within it all, one with it all????

reply to post by MrGummyPants


Read my words but look into yourself on the thought of belief.

Religion is 1% truth and 99% perversions, purposely.

It is the true test to become self enlightened.

Do not look outwards for that is the barrier that billions of people seem to not understand.

You must look within yourself, understand what you are, that the physical is not important , your body is simply what binds you (The being, that one that exists, that is, that "Be's") to this physical universe.

The physical Universe was created by the Divine One (Not he or she) but one, the one, it.

It is all that exists of the Physical Universe, therefor it is infinite and has always existed and will always be, because....it is all that exists of the physical (Very hard to wrap your mind around).

The Physical Universe is Concious and is the Universal Mind, it is single and nourishes, forms, and creates all things physical not within, but OF itself.

Everything physically is EVERYTHING else, your fingers ARE the keyboard, they are Mars, the Sun, your shirt, EVERYTHING, for EVERYTHING is SINGLE and physical....This is by far the MOST important concept to understand that the physical universe is ONE, 1, SINGLE.

The next step is understanding that this great Infinite Physical Universal Mind, is not infact the creator... The Universe is ruled under Divine Law, as is everything within the Creators existance.

The Divine Law dictates that of Kharma and such within those lines, the Physical laws would be of "If you jump up your going to fall down".

Now because we are singular with the Universal Mind it is the difficult part of self-realization to believe in such.

Look within yourself only, know that you are one, that you are everything for if you are one you can be one on one with the creator and free yourself of this Physical Imprisonment created for lessons to be learned.

Understand the Physical is only what binds you it is almost as if you are in a game the computer being your body and you being the one playing on it only in this game you can't get off the computer because it binds you.

Knowledge is not CREATED, it is PASSED, it is attracted to you, knowledge wants you to know you just have to learn to accept the knowledge.

believe in yourself only, not me, not anyone else, only yourself within yourself.

Originally posted by iulslion
reply to post by MrGummyPants

 

Exactly. Someone who sees the light. From this point of view, it is easy to take it to the next level.

I think, therefore I am.
I am therefore I come into being.
If I came into being, I came from somewhere.
Unless I am god, there must have been something before I was here.

Call it what you want, the singularity, the infinitely dense supermass, the one, the universal "I", or God.

Funny that when you translate the name of God (of the bible) it means "I AM"


[edit on 11-6-2009 by iulslion]

At this however you jump to your own conclusion.
Because i think, i do not necessarily have to be work of a creator. To think is but a chemical reaction, to think IS to know i exist, to know that I am alive and working. But does not imply that i was created by a god.

I can understand how MYSELF as a person was created, i've taken biochemistry before, seen how cells and form. How "life" begins in them, there is no place for a god in there, no place.

Originally posted by debz325
Faith is not something you can find on a intellectual level.

Exaclty my point. If i have to drop all logical and interlectual thought in order to simple "believe" a concept, then in my eyes it's not worth looking in to.

Originally posted by MrGummyPants

Originally posted by debz325
Faith is not something you can find on a intellectual level.

Exaclty my point. If i have to drop all logical and interlectual thought in order to simple "believe" a concept, then in my eyes it's not worth looking in to.

I did not see that comment earlier and I do have to contradict it.

You can find faith through logic, I did.

My advice to you is still exactlythe same, follow your own path not someone elses.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Eight

 

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

This is one of those specious falsehoods that is endlessly repeated on ATS. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, especially when so many people, over so many millennia, have sought for evidence and found none.

There is no evidence for God. It is the Unnecessary Hypothesis.

Yeah I agree, it’s also tautology.

The true of the matter is the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. It is said that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists.

God could end the doubt and disbelief if he so desired, he could simply appear and prove to the whole world that he exists. But I guess if he did that, there would be no need for faith.




[edit on 12-6-2009 by Eight]

reply to post by MrGummyPants

. I write this post asking for ANYTHING to convince me, convince me of God, of religeon, of something more than science.

Perhaps the most important question to be asking is to yourself, "What difference does it make "?

As a scientist you'll be aware of cause and effect so why not apply this principle to your search for a god, depending on what type of god your looking for.


To your mind how should a god be ? are you thinking of an Abrahamic type god or the creator of all that there is.Or something else ?

Look across the history if humanity, does there appear to be any effect of the god you envisage if so, what difference does it make, will you become different in some way ?

Would you choose to live your life like other people that believe there is a god? Are their lives more fulfilled or happier than yours?
If so, does knowing there is a god make a person happier or more fulfilled, if yes, why is that ?

Are you afraid of death ? The what if it's just death the end, no more your personality you, the person within a body ceases to exist, sad and somewhat scary.

If you knew there is a god, would it make death less scary for you, could you then live a happier life ?

Millions of believers have lived and all have died, they were all equally as happy,sad, healthy sick, respected and loathed as no believers.

So the fact that they believed there is a god there, didn't make one iota of difference to their lives as they could have led the same life not believing there is a god.

Perhaps it is our fear of death makes us need a god or more likely, to know there is an after life.

Use your scientific reasoning mind my friend it will take you to a logical conclusion -

There is no creator and science has a long way to go to finding the answers to the creation of everything.
Or
There is a creator which created all that there is, so everything is the creator including you.

Originally posted by MrGummyPants
Omniscient and Omnipotency (sorry about spelling) never really worked.

If god is all knowing then he must know the fates of every living being before they are conceived, before they are given a chance. He must know sinners are to be damned to hell for enternity before they even exsist, he MUST otherwise is not to be Omniscient. If this is true then life is in fact preset, no choice can be made in the long run for we all have a set place for us after death that god has long know for us.
On the otherhand, if their is choice. If God and all his omnipotency can in fact us the choice to decide for ourselves in life. Decide our own fate. Then he is in fact NOT Omniscient for to be he WOULD have to know and in turn we'd have no choice.

In short, you cannot have the power to change the world and the power to know the outcome. Otherwise your in fact not changing a damn thing.

This also takes away the concept of free will which says that human behavior is not absolutely determined by external causes. Human behavior is unique and I believe it is determined by one’s self , not by God.

ok, devils advocate hat on ,, damn i like that hat.

Mrgummy

Even though i do not believe in God in the mass organized religious sense, i have noticed you and others post about the 'Faith' apsect of God and how this is a major flaw...

I must point out that EVERY , yes EVERY single theory of existance from the most highly enlightened scientific explanation to the mad rantings of a 6 man cult .. they ALL at some point require you to take some part of the equation on 'FAITH' or best guess

Big bang , big crunch, God, string theory .. etc etc .. look it all up they ALL require you at some point to take somehting on faith i wonder how they differ?


Like i said i dont beleive in God... but i do believe in the possibility of 'Intelligent Desgin' .. infact even scientist's will tell you the universe looks very much like it was intelligently designed ,

The goldilocks enigma

OP, if you would please look over this thread you would have such a request. People just don't want to hear the message of salvation these days.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

All of the evidence is sufficient. I don't think any evidence should have to be provided more than the creation but if this is what you want here.

reply to post by Quantum_Squirrel


Extremely intelligent design.

At that.

But doesn't Link feel that way In Zelda "Man this world really fits my existence as if it was created for me to play in".

Hmm.... I do not believe in heaven,hell, the anti-christ (lol, what a heap of lense flares), but I do believe the Universe to be absoloutley concious and I do believe it to have been created.

If it is infinite (which I believe it is), than it has does and always will exist indefinitley, although this feeling of infinite measurement could have been created.

Time does not apply.

-Psycho.

reply to post by MrGummyPants


My pleasure, I personally hate when that happens to me.

reply to post by Eight

If God could end the doubt and disbelief id he so desired, he could simply appear and prove to the whole world that he exists. But I guess if he did that, there would be no need for faith.

"He" already is appearing everywhere, in all things, the substance/ssence of all things.

If you or others can't see this, who's fault do you think this is?

Why do I need faith in the existence of someone/something that I see everywhere and in everything? I don't. At this point, faith is dropped like a bad habit, and truth is known.

reply to post by Psychonaughty

Time does not apply.

God exists outside of time. He had no beginning. He is the Beginning and the End. He is the only One who could tell the end from the beginning. That is why prophecy is important especially to today's "I seek absolute proof generation." The people who don't want to accept it take it as the powers that be are fulfilling prophecies on purpose!!! They are Satanists. Why can't the simple explanation work? God would be the simplest explanation for all this.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


For what's got to be the third time now. Knowledge by it's self does not constitute ability. If this was otherwise there would be no differentiation between thought and action, which would be undeniably unrealistic. You could know perfectly how to do something yet not be able to do something *paralysis comes to mind, a person most likely still remembers how to move whatever yet is unable to*. Thus the reason those two words are not considered synonomous. One denotes vast amounts of knowledge and the other denotes vast amounts of power or ability.

I will need a bigger space and more time to explain exactly what i mean. I'm sorry it seems like I was jumping forward in my reasoning, I will start a new thread.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by iulslion]