Convince me, Please.

reply to post by Eight

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

This is one of those specious falsehoods that is endlessly repeated on ATS. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, especially when so many people, over so many millennia, have sought for evidence and found none.

There is no evidence for God. It is the Unnecessary Hypothesis.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

I would argue that knowing everything would also encompass the knowledge of how to do anything? Is that not the whole point of knowing everything? Knowing how to control everything? I am not sure what you are trying to say?

Um, did you read the definitions I provided? I really have to ask, and I do mean no disrespect by asking, because the two words are not synomous as I have shown . And knowledge as to "how to do everything" does not equate ability to do "everything".

Are you saying that a God does NOT have to be omnipotent?

That is one of the things I was saying yes. Case in point, ever play the game "Black and White"?

A force of unlimited power means just that right? UNLIMITED? How is that different than how I described it?

Surely you jest. You described both omnipotence and omniscience and called them omnipotence. And the ability to "do anything" does not require one to "know everything", like say the future. You could be all powerful and yet not be able to know exactly what will result from your actions.

reply to post by Astyanax


So, since we have no evidence that life exists on other planets that means hypothesising about alien life is unnecessary? And to just add a bit more, perhaps that being did not wish to be 100% without a shadow of a doubt identified? Are you saying we would be able to somehow be able to tell if it felt and acted to make it that way?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
This is not proof of God, but questions science cannot really explain properly:

- How is water created and where did it originate?
- How is gas created and where did it originate?
- Where did the materials/molecules/chemicals/whatever needed to make the above come from?
- How did the very first piece of matter come to be? The component of this very first piece of matter was created with which materials?
- How does the brain gather and process information EXACTLY?
- How do electric impulses translate into images?
-How can anything be made from nothingness if nothingness has nothing?

Sorry, this made me laugh. Although the jist of what your getting it is valid, you do not ask the right questions.

Your first question about water? Ive taken chemistry for a couple years and i'll just tell you that basically if you combust (react with Oxyen) Hydrogen Gas you create "water" is a gas form. You'd call this steam, though chemically speaking it is Water. Cool it down and Oh look, liquid water. Which is an easily achieved task when in the conditions of a changing planet earth in the early stages of its life. Where these elements came from? Well Hydrogen is the most abundent element in the universe. Oxygen is present but not as common, its often presumed that its presence in the elements that formed earth is what made life so abundent. Just as how other planets form of other elements, we got oxygen.

Second question, gosh where do i start. Gas? What type of gas? Gas is but a physical state of ANY molecule. Solid >>> Liquid >>>> Gas >>>>Plasma. So i won't start on this question due to it being an half-complete question...what gas?

Third question? Well the "elements" that create the above came from "space" a long long long time ago before they "bunched up" and formed planets and stars. But i guess your just respond with "What about before then?" and well thats a good question and one we do not fully understand yet, closest were getn is the Big Bang Theory and as the name suggests, its just a theory.

4th: Well "mass" is theoretically formed through Higg's Boson, a particle which is planned to be discovered through the LHC. Matter however is a tricky subject, because it includes everything. As sub-particles like the higg's bosons are "Matter". This is one of the question that does indeed need answering. With "matter" i'd just like to point out that "God" falls into the catergory of matter, so the old question of what made God pops up again. If something exsists then it is made of matter, else does not. Mass is not relevant for Matter, as Photons which are pure energy are must be made of Matter of some variety. So if anyone wishes to ask where did Matter come from, be prepared to answer it yourself.

5th: How does the brain process and gather infomation?
Im afraid this is 99.99% understood. There are things that we don't understand about the brain but this...is not one. We understand how the brain communicates to the senses. Chemical messages and nerves.
Sorry to be so vague with this one but i promise you this is a HUGE question to answer and i'm afraid i'd probably stuff up trying. So for now i'll just let you off by saying "yeah I don't know".

6th - This one i'm not sure if your mixing terms or you mean how the light spectrum works, like how we do actually "see" an image. This is also a complicated question, look up Electromagnetic radiation and the light spectrum. It'll explain how light waves of various frequencies and amplitudes produce different colours and thus different colours. Or if you wana delve deeper, look into Electron sub-orbitals and how d-orbitals of different numbers can cause light effects.
Or maybe you mean how do "we" process this light? well thats what an eye does, it detects radiation from the visible light spectrum. I just suggest you read up on this.

Lastly: Yes, a true unknown question. To me, it makes more sense for time to be infinite.

-Thanks


[edit on 11-6-2009 by MrGummyPants]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by MrGummyPants

 

are thier any experiments w/ out someone to perform that experiment?
can thier be so much design around you w/ no designer. is thier more of a chance that so much design can happen by chance then the possibility of
a creator. i'm sorry but i just can't look at Miss California and not believe
there's a God. sorry about your ignorance

roll:

[edit on 11-6-2009 by randyvs]

[edit on 11-6-2009 by randyvs]

Heya mate.
Thanks for the input. I live in a beautiful part of the world, every morning i look out at the mountains and they are truly brilliant. But never do i go "Wow! noway did that just happen" because I know..how it can happen. It doesnt require a creator.
I never got how people say that its ignorant to look at the world and not see the work of some creator. It simply doesn't need it, you say "wow its just too special, beautiful and incredible to be just chance". What exaclty have you got to compare this world to that you can look at it and go "No, THIS world has to of had a creator?".
To be honest, theres plenty wrong in the world that suggest faulty planning and imperfection. Blindness for example. Creators of the omnipotent kind cannot leave room for error anyway...

reply to post by MrGummyPants


My thoughts on this are thus.. You cannot and will never believe in god or anything for that matter unless you have proof so therefore the realm of God and religion is out of reach for you because these concepts require faith. Faith is a belief in something untangable not resting on logical proof.

And why do you seem to single out christianity it seems? If your looking for god then dont ask men to show you the way ask god. There are many religions to choose from and many philosophies to choose from. You dont need God necessarily to guide you unless you think you do.( I know my fellow christians think me wrong here and i should be trying to prstletize to this person.)

Try studying Taoism. You might find answers to lifes mysteries that science cannot explain and trust me if science had explained everything about the universe then science would have a cure for what ails everyone and the world in general. Nope science struggles with the same complexities of the universe that religion does.

It seeks to find the answers to the great mystery of WHY we are here. You might get science to explain how you got here but never why. Science cannot explain why atom exists only that it does. It can explain why it exists in terms of its function but not why it came into being. Why did the very first thing every created come into being. You can explain the process maybe and even thats theory but you cannot explain why. Why did that spark first happen. What purpose did it have being born. If all life and existence has no real purpose and no design then why exist.

Your being confrontational and challenging to people who will step and take a swing at what your pitching but it wil be for nothing. They nor anyone on this planet can convince you of what they themselves struggle with in their own lives and thats faith in their chosen belief. We all doubt at some time. We all wonder what you yourself wonder. Is there a god. Is what i beleive in real. Your wondering that about your science. Is it all there is or maybe is there a god. I think you have the answer right in front of you but dont see it. Too much science clouding your philisophical brain. God himself is showing you himself through you very questions. Your questioning is a attempt to find him. Now listen to your heart and look inside and you will find god.

Look at the people who you think embodie this gods ideas and look at the miracles they do every day in his name. Look at those who sacrifice everyday for his word and pay no heed to those false teachers who spread hate. The god i worship believes in love but i will not try and prove to you the validity of what i beleive unless your ready to recieve it.

If you wish only to provoke christians in a debate of proof of their god so you can use the bible to slander their faith then this thread is a waste of time. If you truly wish to find god its as jesus said, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. This requires faith my friend and not proof. Open your heart and ask god to come into it and he will reveal himself. that is all i can say.

Also let me add this. I pray that you do find the answers to what you seek and i am sure you will just not in any way your expecting. Beleive this, God has shown me many times in my life in ways i didnt want to that he was listening and heard my voice. He answers sometimes with words we dont want to hear in ways we dont want to hear them but it has its purpose. I have many stories i could relate to you but if your not one of faith then they are just that, cute stories or anectdotes nothing more.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by fizzy1]

Omniscient and Omnipotency (sorry about spelling) never really worked.

If god is all knowing then he must know the fates of every living being before they are conceived, before they are given a chance. He must know sinners are to be damned to hell for enternity before they even exsist, he MUST otherwise is not to be Omniscient. If this is true then life is in fact preset, no choice can be made in the long run for we all have a set place for us after death that god has long know for us.
On the otherhand, if their is choice. If God and all his omnipotency can in fact us the choice to decide for ourselves in life. Decide our own fate. Then he is in fact NOT Omniscient for to be he WOULD have to know and in turn we'd have no choice.

In short, you cannot have the power to change the world and the power to know the outcome. Otherwise your in fact not changing a damn thing.

Heya mate.
Thanks for the input. I live in a beautiful part of the world, every morning i look out at the mountains and they are truly brilliant. But never do i go "Wow! noway did that just happen" because I know..how it can happen. It doesnt require a creator.
I never got how people say that its ignorant to look at the world and not see the work of some creator. It simply doesn't need it, you say "wow its just too special, beautiful and incredible to be just chance". What exaclty have you got to compare this world to that you can look at it and go "No, THIS world has to of had a creator?".
To be honest, theres plenty wrong in the world that suggest faulty planning and imperfection. Blindness for example. Creators of the omnipotent kind cannot leave room for error anyway...

Everything on the earth required some kind of creator to create it. Not necessarily god but a creator in some sense. It didnt just poof into existence. If that were so i would like to poof a millions dollars into my account right now. Everything you see was made by something. the tree from its seed, the animals from their parents, the mountains from the earth ect ect and so on. Science can even show you that. What your thinking of is the beggining very very begining of creation. Did that require a creator. Well if you follow suit that life doesnt just poof into existence as we know it today and you back step the whole process to a begining then it logically follows suit that even that had to have a creator or else why doesnt life just poof itself into existence without the need of something creating it. Babies being born, that house you live in, food you eat etc etc. Life is ongoing and requires the act of "Pro" creation. Still creation there. And as far as no room for error regarding blindness and everything else i assume you mean to be wrong with this world, who said its in error? If there is a god then how could you claim to know the mind of such a being, and that it is not part of design that some people have afflictions that others dont. I dont see grand design as an attempt at perfection but according to christian teaching the world was perfect as god created it. Man screwed it up. Through sin was such things brought into the world.

To Fizzy,

Im sorry that you feel i only wish to provoke Christians in a debate. This was not the aim of this post, i merely wished for SOME proof. I realise i single out christians here but only because it is the religeon that surrounds me, the one i grew up with. I have smaller knowledge of other religeons and would love to hear from people of those beleifs too.
You seem like a very knowledgable person and the perfect person for me to chat to about this topic, however this talk of Faith does nothing to me. It will forever seem like Wild belief, a system created to cover a route to the exsistence of god that science cannot possibly follow. So although i value anyone's faith as an important part of themselves, i fail to accept it towards proof. I understand there will always be proof of god unexplainable by physical means but it is not that which i shall in turn search for.
If physical proof is all i can gain for knowledge then it is what i shall get.
Religeon is not above physical proof.

- My apologies friend.

I have no answer for you. I was raised as a Catholic in parocial schools. My belief died when I knew more about the Bible in High School than the priests that were teaching me and they told me I would get straight "A's" if I would quit asking questions. My experience of life has shown me there is a lot going on that most people are not aware of. I was once given a demon by a man who made money by taking them back. The demons were free but removing them cost money. I got rid of it by myself and the next day the man was freaked by how I had done it without me telling him. If there is a GOD I do not know it but there ARE beings that are different from us that usually we do not see. I do not see how this might help you. It sure hasn't helped me.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I have no answer for you. I was raised as a Catholic in parocial schools. My belief died when I knew more about the Bible in High School than the priests that were teaching me and they told me I would get straight "A's" if I would quit asking questions. My experience of life has shown me there is a lot going on that most people are not aware of. I was once given a demon by a man who made money by taking them back. The demons were free but removing them cost money. I got rid of it by myself and the next day the man was freaked by how I had done it without me telling him. If there is a GOD I do not know it but there ARE beings that are different from us that usually we do not see. I do not see how this might help you. It sure hasn't helped me.

A demon you say?
Fascinating.
I imagine that was a scary experience for you. You use the term "demon" loosely or is that indeed what they are called?
How did you go about removing it? I'd of thought that in your absence of a god, the need for any sort of priest would be uneeded, so how'd you do it?
Guess somethings you gotta do yourself huh?

Since you are interested in science, I'm sure you can see the order of things. Molecules, atoms, quarks etc. How did this order get there? It is the same with all things if you really look at them. There is an order in all things. How did everything become so ordered and organized? You want proof of God...look around you. No one can prove to you there is a God, but you can prove it to yourself.

this thing called god is more vast than one can imagine. Something along the lines of multiplying evey atom in existence by every possibility, ... times infinity. every thought ever thought, ... word ever uttered, deed ever done. god is me and you ...... and the space in between us.

if the universe is holographic, and everything hinges on perception. what perceived the universe itself ???

god was once described as the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. first and last.

heres an excerpt from the holographic theory;

: In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.

the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows



The power to DO EVERYTHING would CERTAINLY require the power to KNOW EVERYTHING.

To KNOW EVERYTHING would certainly allow you the power to DO EVERYTHING.

I argue that these two definitions cannot be used separately.

reply to post by MrGummyPants


Yes religion is above physical proof becasue what you seek proof of noone has proof of or ever will unless god himself decides to step down and show you. How can man prove that which requires faith? And i didnt mean to say you ARE provoking christians, what i mean was ARE you provoking christians into a prove this or prove that kinda debate. Alot of people do that to provoke religeous people into debate. If you really seek god then again your going to have to look with your heart not your mind. Let me say this, i lost my wife to Wicca. She chose not to believe in god anymore. Wanna know why? Because she never felt him. She had same dilemma as you. She didnt feel any connection to this GOD i followed. She couldnt have faith in something she just couldnt connect with so to her he just wasnt real. Funny thing is i asked her how do you feel connected to the mother goddess and father god your religeon worships as a wiccan? She told me she doesnt she just thinks its kewl. Enough said on her lol. Lost soul still seeking and never listening> she follows a religeon she admitedly doesnt feel faith in. How sad.
Anyways yes yes people can quote scripture all day long to you and it will do nothing for you.

All i can do is tell you my story and how i came to this belief. In the end you can discount it and come up with some scientific explanation if you like i dont mind cause i dont discount the possibility it was all in my head but i follow what i FEEL and thats what we all do. Just as you will do with whatever you believe. See next post cause it wont fit on this one

Order.

Point one to You sir.
That is indeed something i havent fully thought an answer for.
The Order in the natural world is astounding. Not definite evidence, things aquire certain traits because they best suit them. All the planets can be considered round or ellipse but they still vary in size and can be ordered accordingly. And in accordance to their size similiar traits will appear among them, this is not incredible but mere requirence.
Different Elements will form certain sizes, different positions to there related sun's cause different sizes. Their order is all relative to everything else.
However you are right, on a sub-atomics scale the presence of an order is amazing, but our lack of understanding of it does not prove evidence.
These discussions will always fall back on the arguementative point "Disproving some-one else does not make you correct".

Though, you have given me a very valid point to consider.
Thankyou sir.

Valid Point Turkey Burger.

But answer me this:

If God knows the definite end to the Universe, Can he change it?

reply to post by MrGummyPants


I don't have any proof. I have belief, and that's ok with me.

I find it difficult to argue such a moot point. I believe in God, and I respect anyone that doesn't.

I don't speak for Christians on this site, as they may very well hold a different belief than I do on letting others believe freely. I speak only for myself.

I was born and raised in America, where it's ok to believe in God, and it's ok not to.

I have a belief in God, I have faith. If you don't believe in God, why are you looking for proof that he does or does not exist. You don't see me posting, "please, someone tell me there isn't a God".. My faith is good enough assurance for me.

Star and Flag, because I hope you find what you are looking for here. Sorry if I offended anyone with my input on the matter.

Good day.

I like you was raised around christianity. I was episcopal and went to church on sundays with my mom. I went through the motions and did the stand,sing sit kneel pray stand sing etc ect thing. I learned alot about the religion i was exposed to and the idea of god intrigued me. Never did i FEEL him. Not for a very very long time. I went to speak to the father who presided over the church about this. I wanted to know why god didnt make himself known to me. All he was, was an idea in my head and thats all. He gave me the speech about ask and it shall be given etc ect as i told you. i took it and went with it. Still nothing. I went through a time in my life when i searched for god. I was confronted with him one day in the living room of my house.
I was sitting alone in my apartment watching tv with remote in hand. Not thinking of god or anything at all religious. All of a sudden i was overtaken with this sense of something being in the room with me. Not like a ghost or anything but like the whole room was filled with this presence. I dont know what else to call it. The second sensationo i had was being overwhelmed with emotion. Completely overwhelmed with the feeling of guilt and feeling sick like i was suddenly aware of everything i had ever done wrong. It was like being in the presence of something so pure and so perfect that i was immediately aware of just how bad i had been and i felt ashamed. Very very ashamed. Now if one thing i hope you have gotten from my talking here in all this is that i am not a zealot or a overly emotional person who comes to tears at the drop of a hat. I am very intelligent and i like you look for explanations scientifically where there are phenomena. I dont rush to some other worldly view to explain that which has most likely a real plausible explanation.
However that being said, i did experience this. I was so over come with emotion and feeling of guilt and sadness. Like i was not worthy of what was in my presence that hit my knees. I did not do this with forethought. It just happened. before i knew it i was on my knees in front of my couch and my face was buried in the couch and i was begging seriously begging to be forgiven. I wept so hard like i have never in my life wept. It burst out of me hard. I cried harder than i can ever remember in my life. It was powerful very powerful experience, and i knew i was touched by god that day. That moment i confessed my sins and i accepted jesus as my saviour. Why? because i felt him in my heart that day that moment. for me there was no other explanation and i wanted none. I had my explanation. I went forth that day born again. Born anew. Now let me say this i am not the born again bible thumping preachy person you think of when you hear born again. I did go overboard at the beggining but alot do. its called the mountain top experience and it lifts you and makes you soar spiritually. It doesnt last. For me being in the presence of the holy spirit does this to a person. I read the bible alot then and so the disciples say it is so when your in the presence of the spirit.
At any rate my life has flucuated between a service to god and living by my own wims since then. I have gone astray my friend. I am currently on the road back. However once you accept jesus in your heart not your head then your christian. We as his sheep may go astray but it is never to late to come back forgiveness is not a one time deal.
So i pray you find god. I pray you feel him in your heart. It sounds like you want to. You are just looking down the wrong road. Belief in a being that cannot be experienced by your 5 senses requires faith. Not blind faith but faith nonetheless. But if you dont feel him you cannot believe. No matter what people offer up as proof. It will always reside in your mind as a fairy tale.

reply to post by fizzy1


Fizzy.

Thats quite a Dilemma you went through there with the wife. I don't know much about Wicca but i get your point.
However the point i argue is this: Everything you see around you obeys a physical Law. The waves of the vast oceans are but molecules or water sways to the effects of the Moon. The ground below me is but a compound of other vairous elements that obey particle law, binding together where bonds can be made. Thes things can be explained physically, these can be used as proof in discussions on other topics because they physically exist. And if we were discussing how a rock forms you could show me in physicality and i would believe you.
But faith?
This one thing floats outside of all Law? I cannot understand it because i do not have it. How do i get it then? To dismiss all knowledge? I am meant to simply give up everything i know for a blind belief?
Please mate, i would love for a God to exist. Life would be so much simplier but as of now, it doesn't seem so. Just because I question the world i don't get to have faith? Why doesnt god reach out to me like he has you?
I want god!
Does he not want me?