Israel papers: new era in US ties

reply to post by JanusFIN


I agree. Until we see him take actual actions to improve relations, all this is is a publicity stunt. Looks a lot like a popularity contest, complete with dancing, singing, and talent show.

reply to post by maloy

Knowing the mind set of Israel there really is the possibility of Israel going for broke without US control. Israel knows it occupies an Asian land and imported millions of colonials from Europe and North Africa to settle it, they know the natives will never really accept these settlers so why not take it to them? Many Israelis really do believe in the greater Israel dream and will go to extremes to achieve it, these people are viewed as the bad guys who stle the land off the natives, they may as well go for broke instead of letting the neighbours gain proper WMD and the capability to regain this Arab land.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

He is at least trying to discuss the issues in a fair manner. No matter which side of the argument you are on at least they cant say the man doesn't know how to speak English.

People fear the unknown.

Actually in this instance I think people fear the known, since history has taught us time and time again that aggressors cannot be appeased.

Unfortunately, each successive generation breeds its own youthful leaders who can only learn through bitter experience, and so the cycle is doomed to repeat itself.

In the world stage, a leader who doesn't firmly position himself will inevitably be seen as weak.

If I were in the North Korean or Iranian leadership right now, I would without question be planning something to test Obama's resolve.

And another thing, am I the only one who has noticed that the Predator attacks on Pakistani militant hideouts has mysteriously stopped during his tour of the Middle East?

There's a real conspiracy for you.

Originally posted by maloy
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I recall that Obama administration recently blocked a sale of AH-64 Apache attack helicopters to Israel. I am not sure about the specifics, but it demonstrates that Obama has already shown willingness to go that far to pressure Israel. I wonder if Congress was involved in that decision, or if Obama has alternative means to block individual sale contracts.

True once the congress approves the sale then the decision goes back to the President. He can cancel it if he wishes to and he did in this case.

Originally posted by Retseh

And another thing, am I the only one who has noticed that the Predator attacks on Pakistani militant hideouts has mysteriously stopped during his tour of the Middle East?

There's a real conspiracy for you.

Not really.

Take a look over at some of the other threads we have going right now. It's all part of the The New Great Game. It's well worth a look.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter

Knowing the mind set of Israel there really is the possibility of Israel going for broke without US control.

Israel is an economic and trade powerhouse, relying to a large extent on imports/exports and having access to international markets. By starting another war without US support, it risks driving its economy into the ground, which would in turn endanger it's existance. A large number of Israelis today are far more concerned about economy and trade than about some Zionist prophecies and some barren land which is contested with the Palestinians.

There is two interest groups in Israel, and in my opinion the wealthier group (the ones concerned about economy) will pervail in pressuring Netanyahu's policies.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
Many Israelis really do believe in the greater Israel dream and will go to extremes to achieve it

Yes there is a substantial number of "militant hawks" in Israel, who still think they are fighting for survival and can't afford to give up an inch of land. But this is the old generation, and one that is gradually dying out. Recently there has been a major division among Israelis during the elections on what the country's main goals should be.

Hopefully the war hawks will soon be shoved to the side for good. But that doesn't solve the problem as there are similar radical militants on the Palestinian side, who will also need to give away to a new generation of politicians if this mess is to ever be solved.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by maloy]

Originally posted by maloy

Hopefully the war hawks will soon be shoved to the side for good. But that doesn't solve the problem as there are similar radical militants on the Palestinian side, who will also need to give away to a new generation of politicians if this mess is to ever be solved.

I think that's part of the problem too many have a stake in the arms industry.
There is a lot of money to made with the sale of bombs and bullets.

reply to post by maloy
I find the "new" Israelis harder than the previous generation. They have come to accept that they will never be allowed peace by the natives in the region and have no time for them. Same with the Arabs/Palestinians. Two totally distinct cultures now know nothing else but generational conflict. The region needs the US to control Israel, it really does, Israel let off the leash (in full knowledge that nobody has ever given a stuff about them in 2,000 years) is a very dangerous entity. They know one weak move and the game is up.

Originally posted by maloy
Yes there is a substantial number of "militant hawks" in Israel, who still think they are fighting for survival and can't afford to give up an inch of land. But this is the old generation, and one that is gradually dying out. Recently there has been a major division among Israelis during the elections on what the country's main goals should be.

True, but this new generation is not the same as the new generation living in settlement areas.

Your logic is very much territory-based.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
i'm very interested to see how this plays out

and............ IT'S ABOUT TIME!

Obama is looting the country blind, but he seems to be doing good foreign policy wise

i disagree

i think he is forcing Israel to act soon

so expect war soon IMO

i know it sounds like hes seeking peace but honestly, it looks like hes provoking more tension

everyone knows Israel's position is immutable, they will not ever change their minds

i seriously sense a wind of war coming, and i almost Never say that

i think Israel is beginning to feel itself trapped in a corner

that "old generation" is not dead yet...they are still in charge

[edit on 5-6-2009 by muzzleflash]

In Germany, Obama strikes an urgent note on Mideast peace

Reporting from Washington, Dresden, Germany, and Jerusalem -- President Obama declared Friday that "the moment is now" to settle 60 years of conflict in the Middle East as he sought to stoke momentum for negotiations a day after his address in Cairo that both inspired hopes and rattled nerves across the region.

Obama announced he was sending George J. Mitchell, his special Mideast envoy, on a mission to the area beginning Sunday. One of Mitchell's stops could be in Syria, which would mark a significant step in the U.S. effort to seek a comprehensive peace to the Arab-Israeli dispute.

I don't warm up to Obama personally. But I can say without qualification that no one really know what he is thinking. We only knows what he says, mostly in prepared speeches, and a few cosmetic foreign policy changes he's made so far.

He's sharp, he's smooth. He was an ingenue in the dirtiest political machine in the US, Illinois. What he learned there judging by his associates and non-committal senatorial record, is not how to play ordinary chess, but how to play three-dimensional chess. Thinking 8 steps ahead not 2. Make the right noises, act understanding, have nominal unimportant changes, always keep your cards to yourself.

Obama might hate Israel and has planned to sacrifice them to the lions from Day 1. He may have cut a deal with Netanyahu to appeal to the Muslim world's insecurities and give them the impression they have the upper hand, for a while. And for all we know, with China cutting off the US credit card recently, the goodwill of King Abdullah may be the only thing standing between the US being in default. A lot of hidden factors.

We only know Obama from the press. The MSM doesn't so much lie as commit errors of omission. The better way to understand what a politician is really thinking is to ignore what he says on record and look for what he chooses not to say. Read between the lines.

My own take is that the US and Obama are getting irritated with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but know they have to make the proper concerned noises to appear involved for the audience.

If the Israelis were annihilated tomorrow by the Palestinians, or vice versa, the Middle East still has it's resources and unresolved historical conflicts.

The map of the Middle East is on the carving board as we speak. As with Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan are vulnerable to regime changes enacted by the competing major Muslim spheres of influence, the Sunni Saudi Arabia based old guard and the upstart Shiite Iran based Islamic Revolution sweep.

The outside powers push is on for oil and gas reserve controls beyond Iraq in Iran, Kazakhstsan and neighbouring weak ex-Soviet republics. Pakistan is a lynchpin in the nuclear arms control arena. The theatre of action increasingly shifts eastward.

What the US, Britain, France, Germany, and other Western powers have up their sleeves is anyone’s guess. Their tacit policy of keeping the Middle East in disarray that worked so well for decades may be coming to an end.

Short term Russia may act adversarial the the West in supporting Iran. But they may be in on the longer term goal of making sure the Middle East has compliant secular regime heads with little actual political autonomy. No one t.

Obama doesn't want to see the region in nuclear conflict, nor does Putin. Both seem onside with the Chinese proverb "The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed during war"

Mike



[edit on 6-6-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
How this affects Russia remains to be seen, but it certainly will influence Russia-US, Russia-Israel, and Russia-Middle East relations to some extent. Could this even leave Israel desperate enough to seek Russia's friendship? Perhaps. Could this be US trying to compete with Russia for favors in the Middle East? Very well could be. At this point it is still not clear though.

Lieberman seeking to ally with Russia

Foreign ministry states overt agenda to expand, deepen ties with Kremlin but insists alliance not intended to offset Israel's existing relationship with US, despite recent tensions with Obama administration

As many government officials worry about potential tensions between Jerusalem and Washington following US President Barack Obama's demands on Israel during his Thursday speech in Cairo, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is trying to focus on alliance rather than divergence. But he's not necessarily setting his sights on America.

Source

Perfectly clear to me. The Obama Administration feels nothing for doing exactly what Israel wants because it is damaging the US image, therefore Israel needs another 'giant'. It is doubtful they will find a 'new giant' in Russia, in my opinion.

[edit on 6-6-2009 by Mdv2]

reply to post by Mdv2


Well Russia doesn't have a great reputation for their relationship with Jews.
The Exodus of the 90s ring a bell? Not only that but there is still a lot of bad blood.

Cairo's speech was well prepared and advertised. A few days before, we were almost told it would make history. We were told to carefully listen to it. Not only in the USA but all over the world, public attention and expectation levels were teased in the wait of the speech.

I suspect Israel's state was fully aware of the content. The speech stages a new set. It's PR and entertainment. Obama's entourage is very pro-Israel.
From David Axelrod, the man who shapes Obama's image :
A New Beginning — Watch the President’s Speech- David Axelrod

Axelrod is a Zionist, it is my opinion. If you believe it's a rant, you are free to disagree with me. I am non partisan and will not fight over it.
Axelrod is doing his PR and advertising job. Everyone has to know about the show taking place, if you missed it, look for a second chance.
The speech is directed to us, the public opinion, the people. If the US diplomacy wants to offer an outstretched hand to Arab countries, it can be done silently behind closed doors, there is no need for a public speech and seemingly upsetting Israel. We are the advertising target.

Obama is a very skilled speaker, a powerful orator who uses all kind of communication tricks. That's why and how he got the job. That is that's why he was put there I believe.
Nowadays, a President of the United States first job (I think it is valid for a few European countries too) is not to take decisions. Every single day, he faces journalists, delivers speeches and comments, he visits and tours. a POTUS job is COMMUNICATION. Obama is a gifted modern POTUS.
He is a novice in politics. But he is well surrounded with a capable and experienced team very able to draw and decide on american policies. He is not a puppet, he is a front man. He is not a leader, he is the one in the team with the best capabilities to succeed in the position of POTUS.

The intro of the speech is very large. It's honey talk. No controversy, much manichaeism. Violence is bad, peace is good. Terrorists are mean, hate is awful. Cooperation is our path, justice, prosperity, new start, blah blah blah...
Then the usual stuff about his personal experience we can relate to.
He is maybe the best at it. Kenyan roots, youth in Indonesia, social work in Chicago. Well, in case of we have forgotten you know.
Prior to the election, we were told to believe that the US policies would change because he is a black man. Now, we are told the US policies will change because he has been in contact with Islam. He really incarnates "change". With Obama, change does not come from the struggle of ideas and ideologies. Change is linked to him personnally because of what he is (a black man) or his personal human experience (Islam knowledge).
Then honey talk to muslims and Islam again, then personal experience again, honey talk, personal experience... The intro is huge. At this point, we are comfortable and relaxed, such beautiful talking can only make us confident for the rest and we want to believe that at last peace can be made. For the educated man, this speech resonates... though it is not very realistic. Change is linked to Obama as if he could decide alone. As if there is no conflict of interests and differents trends in the USA, no industrial, financial or political lobbies. As if the US policies are not a difficult consensus found between the conflicting interests of the most powerful parties (banks, arm dealers, Christians, Zionists, etc...).

When you can't win a war, promote peace. I think the USA cannot afford anymore wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, back Israel, keep an eye on Western Pacific and contain China. Both economically and humanly. It's whether the wars have to stop or other allies have to help more significantly with troops and money.

To be continued...

The intro ends with a major shift. THE major shift. The image of the USA. I think this one, nobody could guess. All the talking until now was aimed at what is to follow. Did you think we were waging war on Islam ? No, we didn't. Proof is the USA is fairly islamised and we defend the "right" for women to wear a hijab. Now this is a change, a massive change of my perception of America. My eyes are still blinking at the word hijab.

I want to believe in most of this. But it is such a turnaround, I can't swallow it. Obama's entourage is full of Zionists, sorry. I can't think of Axelrod advertising and promoting this message if there is no twist.
America has not changed much in 6 months. America's projected image in the world has or at least Obama wants it to change. The fews millions of muslim americans living in the USA for decades are pushed in front for the photography.

The rest of the speech, nobody really paid attention. And there is no need to. What is important is the intro. From the different perception of America, america's goals and issues will (hopefully) be perceived differently. We will be told again what to understand next months.

Image 1 : Violent extremism
No civilisation clash or war on Islam. Please format and reset, it's war against extremism and defending the muslims.
That's why Al Qaeda and Bin Laden are stupefyingly back in the cards.
War in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq may continue in one form or another, only the perception of these conflicts should change in the world's eyes.

Image 2 : Israel/Palestine
Vague statements, disputable perspectives and no pragmatic solution.
The USA will support both sides because Islam is a part of the US too as proven in the intro.
Obama shows goodwill to settle the conflict. That is the least he can do. At the moment, there is no sign of any actual change.

Image 3 : Nuclear weapons
The USA and Iran are not foes. Please format and reset. The USA wants to prevent a nuclear arms race in the ME. The fact that the only powers with nukes up to date are our allies is irrelevant. Please perceive USA/Iran relationship differently.

Image 4 : Democracy
Ironically funny but upsetting part. Strong advocacy of the democracy system.
But almost each line can be compared to the american current situation of civil rights.
"Confidence in the rule of the law and the equal administration of justice". Black sites ? "Alternative set of procedures" ?
"Government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people" Bailouts ?
"There are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others" Patriot Act ? Internet freedom ?
"Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy" Ahem...

Image 5 : Religious freedom
The USA does not use religion beliefs for antagonizing. Please format and reset. The USA is ecumenical actually and could well remain the world leader thanks to this. The USA are the indisputable united states of religion and the natural mediator on religious topics.

Image 6 : Women's rights
There is no issue over men control of women by cultural, social and religious pressure when a woman cover her hair. Covering her hair is a woman's right.
There is not a word about men. It seems, one day, women decided on their own they should cover her hair. Men had no say on this and he is not part of the issue.
As already stated, the USA strongly defend this right on courts. Nothing is good or wrong, it is just about perspective. Learnt the lesson ?

Image 7 : Economic development
America's main goals are not the control over oil and gas anymore. Please format and reset. Main goals are education, technology development and cooperation.
The USA will still cast his international influence but with a rebalance of the means. Expect a new cultural attack wave. It's cheap !

To be continued...

Ecumenical conclusion with quotes of the Holy Quran, the Talmud and the Holy Bible, the three sister religions. A POTUS is allowed this because the USA is very representative of those 3 Religions. The USA have legitimacy to unite and lead them.

My opinion is it's a PR operation to justify the future freeze of the positions in the ME. Nothing will change and certainly not life in Israel. The USA are in a fragile position, almost broke and uncapable of facing the new opening fronts both domestically and internationally. After the Run'n'Gun Bush period, it is time to take a breath and reconstruct alliances for the future. In this prospect, it is important to put the world's public opinion at rest so that it does not hamper the reshuffle to come. Bush administration caused a lot of damage. In 10 years, the USA image has deteriorated drastically and a new public relations organisation has been hired to fix it.

Interesting article about a report by the CIA that is very relevant to this thread and topic:

CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years

A study conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has cast doubt over Israel's survival beyond the next 20 years.

The CIA report predicts "an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region."

The study, which has been made available only to a certain number of individuals, further forecasts the return of all Palestinian refugees to the occupied territories, and the exodus of two million Israeli - who would move to the US in the next fifteen years.

"There is over 500,000 Israelis with American passports and more than 300,000 living in the area of just California," International lawyer Franklin Lamb said in an interview with Press TV on Friday, adding that those who do not have American or western passport, have already applied for them.

"So I think the handwriting at least among the public in Israel is on the wall...[which] suggests history will reject the colonial enterprise sooner or later," Lamb stressed.

He said CIA, in its report, alludes to the unexpectedly quick fall of the apartheid government in South Africa and recalls the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, suggesting the end to the dream of an 'Israeli land' would happen 'way sooner' than later.

The study further predicts the return of over one and a half million Israelis to Russia and other parts of Europe, and denotes a decline in Israeli births whereas a rise in the Palestinian population.

Lamb said given the Israeli conduct toward the Palestinians and the Gaza strip in particular, the American public -- which has been voicing its protest against Tel Aviv's measures in the last 25 years -- may 'not take it anymore'.

Some members of the US Senate Intelligence Committee have been informed of the report.

www.presstv.com...


Perhaps it is that the US simply lost it's patience or hope in Israel and views supporting it as a lost cause. The current state of affairs between Israel and Palestine is the worst it has ever been, and there are no signs that anything will change for the better soon. Israel needs to decide now if it should move on and agree on the two state solution, or persevere with this constant threat of conflict and risk it's existance and losing dominance of the region.

Originally posted by Manouche
My opinion is it's a PR operation to justify the future freeze of the positions in the ME. Nothing will change and certainly not life in Israel. The USA are in a fragile position, almost broke and uncapable of facing the new opening fronts both domestically and internationally. After the Run'n'Gun Bush period, it is time to take a breath and reconstruct alliances for the future. In this prospect, it is important to put the world's public opinion at rest so that it does not hamper the reshuffle to come. Bush administration caused a lot of damage. In 10 years, the USA image has deteriorated drastically and a new public relations organisation has been hired to fix it.

Very well said Manouche.

Obama's one visible strength is his rousing speeches. And people lap it up.
Like honey, as you said.

Less sophisticated people and societies want humility and respect from the still most powerful man on Earth, and he delivers it. How can anyone hate America when such a fine man is their leader? Obama will proceed with predetermined American domestic and foreign policy, but convince people "We're doing all this for YOU!"

More cynical heads in China, Russia, Europe, may not buy into it totally, but their positions might just soften a touch. Bush embodied everything everyone hated about America. Rich, uncultured, inarticulate, aggressive, arrogant. Obama is, on the surface the values everyone loved about the US, humble beginnings, smart, trying hard.

Now if he can smooth talk the world into help prevent a US economic collapse, that would be quite a coup. But bankers's hearts look at bottom lines not optimistic business reorganization plans.

So still a mountain to climb for sweet talking President Obama. A man who doesn't want war, just peace and brotherhood. Or so he says.


Mike

Can Obama mend relations with the Muslim world?

WASHINGTON, June 5 (Xinhua) -- United Sates President Barack Obama gave a much publicized speech on Thursday at Cairo University in a bid to begin healing the wide rift between his country and the Muslim world.

Despite good intentions, the question remains whether he can mend relations in a region where the U.S. is often despised and where many people believe the West is waging a war against Islam, experts said.

In his speech, Obama called for a "new beginning between the United States and Muslims," and said the two sides could confront militancy and pursue peace togethe