100% proof of U.F.O.S in space - You cannot debunk this one

Quoted from JimOberg(further up the_last_ page)^

Familiarize yourself more with direct eyewitness testimony re these cases (I know it's hard because the UFO promoters actually ignore and cover up the testimony of the on-site witnesses, as a rule) before creating unnecessary hypotheses.

My apologies,Jim,I didn't mean to irritate you.I tend to lean towards ill-informed rhetorical flippancy-I'll try and rein it in.


(hmph...first post on a new page_edited_)

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Ericynical]

Really it just seemingly looks like the vision of that of under a microscope I do not believe that 100% of what we're observing is of intelligent nature (Alien Space Craft).

And you can't "debunk" UFO's considering a piece of space debree is a UFO until known to be what it is exactly.

This thread only has to do with UFO's, clearly not focused on extraterrestrial nature.


-Psycho

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by JimOberg
How do you see that as 'deriding'? I see it as 'correcting'. Why didn't anyone else check? 'Deriding' is what I do with people who swallowed the original misrepresentations and exaggerations. Do you deserve any of it?

Well perhaps 'deriding' is the wrong word... hounding?

But you do the 'correcting' with a lot of zeal.

...and credible accuracy.....

Can we presume, since you haven't actually found any of my correcting that you can argue with, that you are just using a roundabout way to discredit it? Nah, I take the 'zeal' comment as a compliment.

Zorgon, you guys are beset with legions of pretenders and your best people labor continuously to filter them out -- but you never seem to make much progress, new ones pop up to replace discredited ones, and discredited ones resurrect themselves...

If I were to POSTULATE that there were any 'genuine UFO secrets', then flooding the zone with fakes and phonies would be a perfect way to squelch mainstream interest in the subject.

Gosh, that almost sounds like a conspiracy theory. But Zorgon, your instincts are correct about me -- give me the right info I can verify, and I jump.



[edit on 11-6-2009 by JimOberg]

Originally posted by Ericynical
Quoted from JimOberg(further up the_last_ page)^

Familiarize yourself more with direct eyewitness testimony re these cases (I know it's hard because the UFO promoters actually ignore and cover up the testimony of the on-site witnesses, as a rule) before creating unnecessary hypotheses.

My apologies,Jim,I didn't mean to irritate you.I tend to lean towards ill-informed rhetorical flippancy-I'll try and rein it in.


(hmph...first post on a new page_edited_)

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Ericynical]

No problem. I really don't mind people TRYING to irritate me, if for a good purpose. Sometimes it is for my own benefit, I discover. There's a lot of passion and power out there, it's when it's wasted that I'm most dismayed. If the whole subject were nonsense, I wouldn't care so much -- but I've never believed there was NOTHING there.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Zorgon, you guys are beset with legions of pretenders and your best people labor continuously to filter them out -- but you never seem to make much progress, new ones pop up to replace discredited ones, and discredited ones resurrect themselves...

Your welcome for the 'zeal' was not meant in a bad way... if one does not have passion for their belief then what is the point of it all?

Here I will agree with you... for every one that is seriously seeking, there are 50-100 charlatans out there. Best we can do is hope a few good people see through the noise. But it was easier years ago

As to progress... well that is the caveat... to make progress we would need real people on the inside giving us real data.

IF it were true that there really is nothing going on, very few would now believe that and that would require even more proof than if their were aliens.

We KNOW there are military secrets... but we also know all we can do is guess or speculate because any real documents or info would be a treasonable offense to be in possession of those documents, let alone present them. So having the proof in hand that we need for the skeptics would land us in jail or worse.

It also doesn't help matters when people on the inside like Ed Mitchell whet our appetites yet still give nothing solid.

So why do I keep looking?

Because since I started this, I have gotten many contacts of serious insiders that have given me material that I can verify.

The problem is that they ask for confidentiality. So the dilemma is that if I tell what they told me, I would violate the confidence and that would be like shooting myself in the foot, as I would lose all credibility in those circles and my info line will be cut short.

So best I can do is use the info they give me to search for my own source.

One perfect example is Henry Deacons comments on Project Avalon interview about "Looking Glass" and "Shiva Nova"

Well I found those... a document from Los Alamos on "Looking Glass" is here at ATS where it was delegated to skunkworks. But its the real deal, still online at LANL archives talking about backward in time travelling light rays.

Shiva Nova was something I was already working on and Russ Hamerly, a senior exec at Boeing first put me on to it. One of the contact that coe through these forums joked one day and asked me if I had "cosmic' clearance after he told me he worked at LLNL. I joke backed and said "No, but I know some people that do"

We laughed and he gave me this;
www.thelivingmoon.com...

with a secure site link to the LLNL project

I have THREE letters from NASA addresses that have written me to compliment us on our full moon picture... best they have ever seen...

I framed those... best they have ever seen? Ummm great, but ours was taken with a 10inch scope under poor conditions in London by Mike Deecan. (we sent him a light pollution filter) In case you haven't seen it;
www.thelivingmoon.com... (dial up warning BIG file)

One NASA official wrote me from JSC and complained about the music I had on my site... seems the autoplay was a 'problem' when he viewed my site at work. He did send me a personal address to reply to though.

If I were to POSTULATE that there were any 'genuine UFO secrets', then flooding the zone with fakes and phonies would be a perfect way to squelch mainstream interest in the subject.

You POSTULATE? Nah...

But again I agree with you. One of the reasons I have not worked much on image anomalies here lately is that there are a few people on this site and others that are presenting over pixelatted images with writing all over and if someone wanted to pay to confuse the issue, they could not have done better than to hire these people... yet they do it for free

And then we have another issue...

One of my prime contacts is a gentleman that hold many top secret patents and has been a NASA contractor for many years. One of his patents is in the public domain, yet still top secret.

In his words...

I just wanted you to know that yes...I keep very busy and I'm on a 'mission'! My Mission is to keep America safe through development of some
very exotic technologies.

snipped...

I've worked on/with HAARP. If you want to learn more about that see US Patent #xxxxxx at url. If you read the patent you'll understand the relevance to HAARP and the Stealth Bombers, etc. You're an intelligent man and I'm certain that you'll be able to make the connection. If you read US Patent xxxxx, you'll understand (a little better) my connection to/with and collaboration with these men. LOL...suffice it to say that the 'Predator' (as in the movie) is alive/living at Los Alamos!

Hi, Ron...Good Morning!

Thanks for the note and you certainly touch on points of similarity and interest (proving that great minds think alike!).

I am free to talk about any of my published US Patents which are in the public domain. I am, however, under an edict from DoD under the NSA to 'report any inquiries relative to the stealth patent'. I had a phone call from a person who identified himself as an 'Undersectetary of Defense' and the person read a statement to me which I later found was excerpted from the National Security Act, as amended. I was 'ordered' to report any inquiries of any kind, by anyone, to DoD relative to that case (patent). I've only had to do that one time in 20 years when a group of Isreali's, based in Philly, contacted me relative to undertaking collaboration on some 'project' in Haifa. I reported this as instructed and the group 'disappeared' shortly thereafter.

Now you see my dilemma?

It gets worse... we got this information while randomly discussing 'secret space stations' and secret shuttle missions here at ATS...

The material in the above mentioned patent was originally produced in space. How much I don't know... WHERE I don't know because this was BEFORE ISS existed...

So people told us that there were no 'secret shuttle missions' Well that is not true. While the LAUNCH was not secret, the mission certainly was. There were several early shuttle flights that were US military astronauts only and clasified DoD missions

Two in particular stood out - STS51C and STS33. Why? because the RETURN WEIGHT was and still is last I checked, CLASSIFIED. So what did they bring back?

Then it gets interesting

We were told there were never any secret projects launched and someone U2Ued me one simple word MISTY

Well how about that? STS-36 Mission MISTY stealth satellite that is surrounded in controversy and even includes Robert Bigelow from my home town

So I posted it...

Now 'someone' followed up on that and wrote me,,, and in a long course of mail back and forth to build trust I now know what the 'stealth coating' is being applied on. I even have the manufacture and the cost per 5 gallon pail (astronomical :lol

Myself and Bigfatfurrytexan are chomping at the bit to reveal all this... and we aree getting closer as the patent hollder just wrote a month ago that his gag order has been lifted and he can now participate with Pegasus more openly... so I expect good things

But the person who works on the 'project' posts here regularly, but you would never know which side of the fence he is really on. (probably said too much already )

So welcome to my world on the fringe..

Gosh, that almost sounds like a conspiracy theory. But Zorgon, your instincts are correct about me -- give me the right info I can verify, and I jump.

Well someone in your position could also send hints anonymously But I admit today I see you in a new light

Maybe we could do lunch... somewhere obscure and dark... can't go ruining our reputations now can we?





[edit on 11-6-2009 by zorgon]

Originally posted by JimOberg
Can we presume, since you haven't actually found any of my correcting that you can argue with, that you are just using a roundabout way to discredit it?

Missed this...

I did not say your info was wrong... merely that looking at yours is fair play I too expected more from Ken Johnston... I know many books "Dark Mission" were sold as a result of me posting that "Press Release" thread, even John bought us a copy... Still a good read, but not what was promised to be sure

And not even a signed copy or acknowledgement for our work

But on the other side guys like the Bad Astronomer also make a healthy buck selling books and going on debunk tours. If there were no crazy CT'ers the debunking business would be awfully slow.

I just find it double standards when the skeptics scream foul when a CTer sells a book, but nary a whisper when its the other team making the loot

Zorgon, the project names and associations you listed were not, in my view, random pastings of conspiracy ravings. You have clearly applied some measurable level of sense to your filter, and I'm impressed. If you're right even 5% of the time, we're in for some fun.

YAAAAAY!Zorgon and Jim are friends!No more eyestrain for me!

Sorry.You two are very entertaining

Originally posted by Ericynical
YAAAAAY!Zorgon and Jim are friends!No more eyestrain for me!

Sorry.You two are very entertaining

I don't believe it and refuse to believe it unless......they were already friends? :

Before everyone takes part in a marathon tree hugging contest can I ask a question?

Can we discuss the first two videos shown in the original OP? these videos seemed to have been pushed to one side and I don't believe they have been debuked yet? i.e nobody has said what force makes the object in question change direction so rapidly?

Also reading the posts it appears that we are all in agreement that the tether video shows anomolous objects can we focus on these and perhaps come to some understanding as to again answer what causes these objects to change direction.

Am I right in saying this was out of earths orbit? therefore, the objects shouldn't be effected by Earth?

Just throwing it out there

Gotta go gear up for shuttle mission coverage for my news clients. You might spot me on MSNBC or evening NBC Nightly News. This is going to attract most of my attention for about two weeks.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by zorgon
And BTW there was a SECOND tether flown by the REAL space program, the US NAVY a month after STS 75 and that WAS successful and flew for two years...

How do YOU know about this -- and how can you provide checkable sources, outside of, say, your dreams?

Well I see you did not deny it my source is the US NAVY... and if you spend a few minutes on my website you will see what I know

Now then how do YOU know about it? Its not a NASA thing


Well good luck on the mission coverage. bring us back some good ufo clips to chat about

What happened to the McMoon video?is it possible to view it somewhere else?
Hmmmm.....both Jim and Zorgon mentioned on another site.....interesting



fran,the unknowns swarming around the tether really are displaying insectile(i.e.flylike) behaviour........I was joking when I mentioned glass space bees.....

Originally posted by zorgon
***snip***
So why do I keep looking?

Because since I started this, I have gotten many contacts of serious insiders that have given me material that I can verify.

The problem is that they ask for confidentiality. So the dilemma is that if I tell what they told me, I would violate the confidence and that would be like shooting myself in the foot, as I would lose all credibility in those circles and my info line will be cut short.

So best I can do is use the info they give me to search for my own source.

***snip***

To be very frank and honest.

People with confidential information that they pass on to people who obviously shoudn't have it have already compromised their security clearence.

The internet is absolutely swarmed by references to dead people and claims about their supposed secrets. NONE of the truly interesting stuff is properly verifiable.

I'd be happy to have you loose your sources in the good cause of disclosure.


Sometimes the truth is more important than individuals.

And citing your confidential sources but only linking to non-essential stuff or even supporting dubious material is no good.

Or is it just me that thinks that way?



[edit on 13.6.2009 by HolgerTheDane]

Originally posted by franspeakfree
***snip***
Also reading the posts it appears that we are all in agreement that the tether video shows anomolous objects can we focus on these and perhaps come to some understanding as to again answer what causes these objects to change direction.

Am I right in saying this was out of earths orbit? therefore, the objects shouldn't be effected by Earth?

Just throwing it out there

There certainly is a particle on the video that changes direction.
It seems clear from the answers in this thread that no-one actually can say with 100% certainty what it is that caused it. So why keep asking?

But what you wrote in OP -

Originally posted by franspeakfree
this is 100% proof IMO that shows we are not alone

That is BS.

Only thing that we can establish is that this particle behaves in a way we can't explain. Probably because we haven't got all the facts.

When I have leaves blowing around in my garden I often see one or more moving around in a different direction or pattern than the rest. I know somthing has made it happen - it must be turbulance.
Same with the particle in the video. Some force made it happen. Gravity? Collision with unseen (unlit) particle. Deflection from hitting the lens of the camera? (my favourite).
What I'm on about here is that we are talking about a particle. A minute thingy. I'm sure that even an alien cant blow on only one particle without effecting the others as well.

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
Sometimes the truth is more important than individuals.

Theoretically perhaps..

But I have found that what usually happens is not believed anyway, or the person coming out gets ridiculed, so there is no point. Without a document in hand it is only a few that can read between the lines... the rest really only want 'truth' that fits their particular belief. In the years I have been here I have seen that repeated many times

An example for you...

I hinted in this an several threads about the other tether, even Jim mentioned something about the source being in my dreams though I notice he did not deny it

You know how many people followed up on that? I also said they fired lasers at it to test the transmission of power via high power focused laser to a satellite in orbit.

That is one of those bits of truth I have from my contacts. But since no one here (except 2 people) showed much interest, there is little point pursuing it.

So its not so much a question of compromised security, its a question of apathy

Why should I waste my time placing things on the table that get ridiculed before anyone even looks at it?

Jim I can understand... he has a reputation to maintain... he would never openly back up stuff like that although he is fully aware of what I am talking about in this case

Now another question...

WHO are YOU that thinks you deserve the truth? Are you an American citizen? Do you pay taxes? Most .mil sites that link to 'interesting' files don't work outside the USA

What is your need to know? And when you know, what will you do with that info?

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
Or is it just me that thinks that way?

Nope you actually have a valid point, HOWEVER since we cannot actually produce secret documents to verify anything, nor could you post them if you had, all we are left with is following a trail of circumstantial evidence.

The more small pieces of the puzzle one has , the easier it is to get a look at the big picture. I know many skeptics insist we focus on only one point at at time and they get annoyed when you try to link it to other points, yet to see the overall picture you need more.

When several points fit together, and lead you to other pieces, you can then confidently assume you have a good idea what is going on. Still no proof to be sure, but as you get closer more pieces come your way, or you find it easier to look at something that may have been totally unrelated before but now suddenly you see where it fits.

The 2nd link works to anyone who didnt get to see it.

It's pretty good footage, lots of movement. I don't believe that nasa doesn't know what it is, they have too. I thought it was strange though when that long tether was being circled by alot of the objects, that was definitely strange.

I dont thinks its undeniable proof.. I would more than ever want undeniable proof as I think it is insane to beleive we are alone in the Galaxy.. but these vids do not provide anywhere near 100% proof sorry.

Vid 1 seems to be linked incorectly, vid 2 has been on ATS a few times before.

Originally posted by zorgon
***snip***
Now another question...

WHO are YOU that thinks you deserve the truth? Are you an American citizen? Do you pay taxes?

Where the blazes did that come from.

Why should the truth about alien presence on earth (or in orbit for that matter) be reserved for Americans? Are you on drugs or something...?

But to part of your question - yes I do pay tax - and yes my country is part of Nato.
Not that it really matters...

Personally I think that if we were visited by aliens they would NOT be in contact with the US, China, India, Pakistan, Israel, Iran etc. because only dimvitted aliens would support or be seen as supporting the internal and external politics of said countries.
Having travelled in space I doubt they would be dimvitted.

***snip***
What is your need to know? And when you know, what will you do with that info?

My need to know is twofold.
First of all it would be nice to know if it is true that we are being misled about the presence of aliens. Are goverments really lying to us about that particular issue? (I know they are lying about other issues).

Secondly it is my right as a world citizen to know if our world leaders are in contact with aliens. We would all have the right to communicate with them in other ways than looking at particles in extreme close-ups.