100% proof of U.F.O.S in space - You cannot debunk this one

Originally posted by franspeakfree

Your right though unfortunately unless new footage comes about we won't be able to settle this.

Good thing we have Mr Stubbs!

For those of you who are interested or wish to perform more extensive analysis- here is the Tether Sequence Uncut:


(This video was released by the Martyn Stubbs NASA UFO Archives on March 15, 2009 - Thanks Mr. Stubbs!)

*I like your thread Fran

[edit on 8-6-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by franspeakfree
I am not looking for an argument I am looking to debate this in a civilised manor.

not an argument in the sense of raised voices and hurt feelings

rather

"Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument." from wikipedia

in that sense

cranberrydork do you personally believe that all the white dots in the first 2 videos can be categorised,labelled and defined

the question makes no sense as written

everything can be categorized, labelled, and defined

a person may not agree with the category, label, or definition, but even 'i dont know' is a form of categorizing.

cranberrydork are you aware of newtons FIRST LAW? ifso please can you tell me what will happen to 2 balls if I let go of them at the same time in space

you may as well just stop asking this

since it makes an invalid a priori assumption that the objects seen in the videos are exactly the same and under the same influences and forces

the actual physics of the objects is relatively unknown so attempting to force some possibly artificial standards onto them is illogical

Originally posted by cranberrydork

the actual physics of the objects is relatively unknown so attempting to force some possibly artificial standards onto them is illogical

Fran also fails to take into account the effects of the tether's highly charged plasma 'sheath' on surrounding objects.

(But then again, most people do)

Your assertion that the physics of these objects is relatively unknown is something we can - all three of us - agree upon. And even if we were certain of the nature of the objects, there would still be many questions that have not been fully answered by the available data;

The novelty and uniqueness of the conditions around the tether add to the difficulties is making drawing accurate conslusions.
These difficulties are compounded by the the lack of data regarding the influence of the tether effect or nearby objects has not been provided to the extent that many would wish. This unavailability of the various forms of data preludes us from knowing to which extent the tether is having on nearby objects.

Of course, only a small amount of the tether footage has been made available to the public.... With several hours of the tether footage, one would be able to better determine the properties of the objects and then extrapolate the extent of the tether's influence on them.

Thus Far, Mr Stubbs (not NASA) has been responsible for making available the vast majority of the tether footage that is commonly seen.

[edit on 8-6-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Good thing we have Mr Stubbs!

Absolutely, without his work I don't believe we would be as informed as we are on this subject, with his work we have been able to base are understanding using physical material thumbs up for stubbsy !

*I like your thread Fran

Thanks Exhuberant1 I appreciate your feedback.

In regards to the video I have some concerns,

My main concern is the fact that people have said on this thread that the white dots in the video do not go behind the tether and that its an optical illusion. Now I am absolutely convinced that I can see these white dots travelling behind the tether. To say otherwise I just can't accept.

Secondly, just to be clear,

I don't believe that the majority of white dots in the video are intelligently controlled crafts i.e UFOS (without the . inbetween), the reason I say this is because from what I can see Newtons FIRST law is applied to these objects meaning that the objects travel in one straight line and therefore are not influenced by any force.

However, nevertheless there are questions to be asked about this video like the amount of white dots that appear and the way the camera shot is changed rapidly as soon the white dots start appearing and the fact that some of these white dots are pulsating, like others we have seen in other NASA videos.

I am starting to lean towards critters. i.e organisms in space. What say you my friend?

Originally posted by franspeakfree

I am starting to lean towards critters. i.e organisms in space. What say you my friend?

I concur.

That is a possibility towards which I also lean.

Check out this thread to learn more:

Are some UFO's animals that live in space?

*My hypothesis and some supporting data is also in this thread, starting on page one.

Originally posted by cranberrydork
not an argument in the sense of raised voices and hurt feelings

rather

"Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument." from wikipedia

in that sense

Yes in old english I know what your saying but again, people assume when they read the word 'argument' that it is a heated debate and therefore, don't want to get drawn in, so its easier and more pleasant to say civilised discussion.

original quote franspeakfree

cranberrydork do you personally believe that all the white dots in the first 2 videos can be categorised,labelled and defined

the question makes no sense as written

everything can be categorized, labelled, and defined

a person may not agree with the category, label, or definition, but even 'i dont know' is a form of categorizing.

IMO that is where people go wrong on this planet, because the majority of us like to be able to define and categorize everything we come across, therefore, when its not possible to put a label on something its easier to say it doesn't exist or label it as something that we do know exists. To accept that it is something new and unexplored makes us feel vulnerable and not quite as important as we first thought we were.

This is the problem that effects all of us, instead of the mind accepting new things it automatically wants to be able to define and label everything, bit like puting a square peg in a round hole.

since it makes an invalid a priori assumption that the objects seen in the videos are exactly the same and under the same influences and forces

the actual physics of the objects is relatively unknown so attempting to force some possibly artificial standards onto them is illogical

Ok I will stop quoting newtons FIRST law as its making you uncomfortable. Instead I will ask what outside force in video 1 and 2 effects the objects in question i.e what makes the objects change trajectory outside of earths orbit in spaceand why?

[edit on 8-6-2009 by franspeakfree]

reply to post by Exuberant1


I can't remember which thread it was where I first read about 'critters' it might have been Mike S's but I can't rememeber. Anyway it was very informative and taught me alot.

I suppose its logical to think that other organisms exist outside of the earths atmosphere. I mean just the other day I read in a spanish newspaper an article about several new species found on earth this year miles down in the ocean where previosuly science had said its impossible for life to survive that deep down because of pressures. Wrong again.

Very interesting indeed.




[edit on 8-6-2009 by franspeakfree]

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
Aldrin talked of an object they couldn't identify. He said nothing of size, distance, speed, direction or structure. What he did say was that they didn't want to call back and announce an object they couldn't identify. That is not the same as it being anything of alien origin.

Please direct me to reliable information on which astronaut reported seeing an alien in orbit (or anywhere else for that matter).

Okay so since Herr Oberg doesn't like my last choice how about THIS one?

Steve Omar, another investigative journalist and researcher, indicates that J. Allen Hynek (who investigated U.F.O.s for the U.S. Air Force), Major Donald Keyhoe, Timothy Good (in his book Above Top Secret) suggest secrecy about UFOs and Extraterrestrials. One unquestionably absolute expert we may want to consult is Christopher Kraft, who was Director of the NASA tracking base in Houston during the Apollo Moon missions, when he revealed the following conversation “after” he left his work at NASA:

Zogron, you're not seriously offering this as legitimate evidence for an event, are you?

Originally posted by cranberrydork
not an argument in the sense of raised voices and hurt feelings

rather

"Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument." from wikipedia

in that sense

Yes in old english I know what your saying but again, people assume when they read the word 'argument' that it is a heated debate and therefore, don't want to get drawn in, so its easier and more pleasant to say civilised discussion.

original quote franspeakfree

cranberrydork do you personally believe that all the white dots in the first 2 videos can be categorised,labelled and defined

the question makes no sense as written

everything can be categorized, labelled, and defined

a person may not agree with the category, label, or definition, but even 'i dont know' is a form of categorizing.

IMO that is where people go wrong on this planet, because the majority of us like to be able to define and categorize everything we come across, therefore, when its not possible to put a label on something its easier to say it doesn't exist or label it as something that we do know exists. To accept that it is something new and unexplored makes us feel vulnerable and not quite as important as we first thought we were.

This is the problem that effects all of us, instead of the mind accepting new things it automatically wants to be able to define and label everything, bit like puting a square peg in a round hole.

since it makes an invalid a priori assumption that the objects seen in the videos are exactly the same and under the same influences and forces

the actual physics of the objects is relatively unknown so attempting to force some possibly artificial standards onto them is illogical

Ok I will stop quoting newtons FIRST law as its making you uncomfortable. Instead I will ask

In your opinion, what outside force in video 1 and 2 effects the objects in question i.e what makes the objects change trajectory outside of earths orbit in space and why?





[edit on 8-6-2009 by franspeakfree]

reply to post by franspeakfree


Check this out Fran,

Here is an interesting article by the ISRO about UV-resistant Bacteria recently discovered living up to 41 km into the stratosphere:

Discovery of New Microorganisms in the Stratosphere

*For more intensive research I recommend this paper - especially for the extensive references pertaining to life in the upper atmosphere that it contains:

Bacteria in the global atmosphere –
Part 1: Review and synthesis of literature
data for different ecosystems

(The pdf : www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net...)

[edit on 8-6-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by BlasteR

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
…..Please direct me to reliable information on which astronaut reported seeing an alien in orbit (or anywhere else for that matter).

I only stated that some astronauts have "reported seeing aliens and UFO's in orbit" because some astronauts really do believe that they've seen alien beings in orbit and have come forward to try to explain why. Astronauts like Clark C. McClelland…..

…. Alot of folks might consider this guy a little "off". But these are his words, nonetheless. And he is still an extremely intelligent and capable astronaut and ex-NASA employee. .....

OK, if you can believe McClelland is a former astronaut, you can believe anything, and nobody needs to believe anything else you claim. Start by getting some facts correctly, then we can step out from there, please.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Check this out Fran,

Here is an interesting article by the ISRO about UV-resistant Bacteria recently discovered living up to 41 km into the stratosphere:

Discovery of New Microorganisms in the Stratosphere

Very interesting indeed, yes I remember hearing about this before, thats what I am saying, again its logical isn't it that if these 'critters' exist in space they would be interested in the tether.

I have to say when I first heard about animals in space and what not I turned a blind eye, but then when I kept reading about the possibilities I began to open my mind to the them. It just goes to show practice what I preach aye!

Where did Jim, Doomsdayrex and Holga go?

Edit: Jims back



[edit on 8-6-2009 by franspeakfree]

Originally posted by franspeakfree

Originally posted by JimOberg
Well, that's the crunch. How far away do you 'know' it to be, and how do you know it?

Jim we seem to be skipping over certain questions that need to be addressed so I will break it down.


Jim Oberg: Do you believe that ALL the white dots in the videos are ice particles?

By no means -- it's because some of them may be something ELSE that they deserve attention and careful winnowing out -- nearly all of them are prosaic (mostly ice, often particles of insulation materials, sometimes metallic pieces broken loose, or 'other'), but the chances of something carrying a message about a serious malfunction of the spacecraft, or even an indicator of a hitherto unrecognized phenomenon, is real and makes observation and analysis imperative -- exactly as NASA has done from the first manned spaceflights.

Whoa, are you claiming that I secretly know the dots are genuine UFOs and that I'm faking ignorance of this for some ulterior purpose? Please reconsider the way you worded this.

I have to be honest I used to think so, because I thought that everyone in NASA knew, but I know now that NASA is so fragmented and its a need to know basis. To answer your question, I believe you were kept out of the loop which is the reason you are on this site, I mean why else would an EX NASA employee be patrolling a conspiracy 'tin foil hat' web site?

Why else? How about a subculture of ignorance and venom that misleads vast numbers of young space enthusiasts?

"Kept out of the loop" implies a vast conspiracy of false fronts, secret channels and operators in batcaves using invisible comm gear (that doesn't even appear on the shuttle's power grid), coordination of cover stories and fabrications and falsified images -- and the result is only the stream of videos of space UFOs people glorify in misinterpreting. That's a little too complex -- far simpler is a subculture of misinterpretation and ego-gratifying make-believe, a cultural phenomenon far more common and all too human.









[edit on 8-6-2009 by JimOberg]

Originally posted by JimOberg
OK, if you can believe McClelland is a former astronaut, you can believe anything, and nobody needs to believe anything else you claim. Start by getting some facts correctly, then we can step out from there, please.

Can you tell me so I know from the horses mouth, did he indeed work for NASA? Also can you answer my question

Do you believe in the possibility of there being life outside of our earth?

Originally posted by franspeakfree

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
Please direct me to reliable information on which astronaut reported seeing an alien in orbit (or anywhere else for that matter).

Oh dear HolgerTheDane I can't believe you have actually posted that

Here are a few names:

Gordon Cooper
Ed White & James McDivitt
Donald Slayton
Major Robert White
NASA Pilot Joseph A. Walker
Commander Eugene Cernan
NASA's Maurice Chatelain
NASA's Scott Carpenter

Fran, you're failing the reality check. On the list are not astronauts who have reported UFOs, but astronauts (and others) that UFO magazines and tabloids have CLAIMED reported UFOs. Your clinging to trust in those sources has crippled your ability to conduct a reality-based rather than rumor-based adult conversation.

The Borman hoax claim has been addressed on another thread re the 'Bogus Bogie'. The Maurice Chatelain story is total fraud, starting from the false claim he was ever any sort of NASA official, communications or otherwise.

Your sad gullibility toward those sorts of stories demeans your own intelligence and suggests a long period of remedial reality-refamiliarization is needed, and in the meantime, you're wasting my time.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by JimOberg... does NOT immediately follow the break, as generally claimed, but was taken DAYS later?

Care to explain why the tether two days later was still glowing?

No problem, Zorgon.

It was a bizarre astronomical condition known to experts
as D-A-Y-L-I-G-H-T.

Originally posted by zorgon
And BTW there was a SECOND tether flown by the REAL space program, the US NAVY a month after STS 75 and that WAS successful and flew for two years...

They fired lasers at it from two Earth stations as a proof of concept testing power transmission

But then... that never made the evening news either... just like it seems to get ignored here as well

How do YOU know about this -- and how can you provide checkable sources, outside of, say, your dreams?

Originally posted by JimOberg
Why else? How about a subculture of ignorance and venom that misleads vast numbers of young space enthusiasts?

I don't think its venom I believe its because NASA has been caught out on numerous occasions and this implies that they know more, which in turn makes people think suspiciously of NASA.

"Kept out of the loop" implies a vast conspiracy of false fronts, secret channels and operators in batcaves using invisible comm gear (that doesn't even appear on the shuttle's power grid), coordination of cover stories and fabrications and falsified images -- and the result is only the stream of videos of space UFOs people glorify in misinterpreting. That's a little too complex -- far simpler is a subculture of misinterpretation and ego-gratifying make-believe, a cultural phenomenon far more common and all too human.

No no I am not talking about batcaves (although......) seriously come on that is not what I am implying and you know this, I am talking about a fragmented groups within a group, a need to know basis, alot like how Bob Lazar described area 51.

Analogy:

For instance say I work in a company that employs 100,000 employees world wide. In each site aorund the world there are between 2-6 thousand employees they all work in 60 different departments, in each department there are 40 job roles, in those job roles some of the staff require administrators, others need supervisors and others need managers and each one of those managers need a PA.

Do you believe the administrator in department 1 knows what work the administrator is doing in department 20 for one of those 40 jobs?

Thats just one site,across the world there are hundreds of sites with thousands of departments.

we hear about missions to space but how many of us know the times and dates of each space mission around the world? How many shuttle launches are there worldwide how many sattelite launches are there worldwide.

TMSM do not report this therefore, without looking deeply the majority of people are not going to know are they?

Originally posted by zorgon
The wire is only a few centimeters in dia. Its over 80 nautical miles away. Sunlight reflecting on such a thin wire?

you really don't have any idea about this do you?

Zorgon, you must compose these putdowns while gazing in a mirror.

Indeed the line was about the thickness of a home telephone cord, in a white sleeve. And indeed it was visible in normal light hundreds of miles away.

That did surprise some know-it-all guessers, but not the guys who designed and built it, who expected it to be bright enough to register on camera and on eyeballs.

And it turned out to be true, because -- hold your breath -- people on the ground saw it. They recorded their sightings on the Internet. I and my family were among them, on several spectacular pre-dawn passes over Texas.

One of those passes provided critical data on the source of the illumination. I watched it emerge from Earth's shadow. Before emergence, dark. During emergence, ruddy. Post emergence, white. S-u-n-l-i-g-h-t.

True reality is often amazing and thrilling. I am genuinely sorry that you seem to limit your mind to the fake stuff.



[edit on 8-6-2009 by JimOberg]

Originally posted by zorgon
Tether Optical Phenomena Experiment (TOP)

Using a hand-held camera system with image intensifiers and special filters, the TOP investigation will provide visual data that may allow scientists to answer a variety of questions concerning tether dynamics and optical effects generated by TSS-1R. In particular, this experiment will examine the high-voltage plasma sheath surrounding the satellite...

....

There ya go tons of links to real data...

I only felt generous because this search netted me a few new documents I didn't have yet

Tons of data, milligrams of understanding....

If TOPS was HAND HELD, Zorgon, doesn't that imply to you it was INSIDE the crew cabin?

And since the cabin's windows were filtered to prevent crew harm from UV and other frequencies, where does that involve your imaginations about detection of such wavelengths?

The image was broad on the TV downlinked from the payload bay cameras -- the only ones whose images of the tether have ever been published here, and which operate in visible light -- because of pixel smear at the high gain control settings in the low light conditions.

You've shown good ability to gather technical data from the internet, and zero ability to interpret it. But you're among peers, and are having fun -- who am I to rain on your parade?