What Happened to Cryptozoology?

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Nice thread ravenshadow13!

Though I enjoy a good Bigfoot story, I thoroughly enjoy the 'real' cryptids for want of a better term... i.e. the ones we have actually recovered. The best place for cryptids IMHO is the ocean. So much bizarre stuff rises to the surface in fishing nets etc. With most of the ocean still to be explored, I think we'll be finding strange critters for a long time to come.

S&F

IRM

Evolution is in perfect order with a belief in God.

God's system is based on you not knowing for sure if He is there or not. He provides tests of faith throughout your life. What you believe and do shows God how much you love Him. For example, let's look at Deuteronomy 13:1-3:

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him."

We see from the above teaching that (1) the prophet (sub scientist) was accurate in what he said (wonder) because he proved it (came to pass). We also know that (2) the prophet (sub scientist) is suggesting by his wonder (evolution) proves that God did not make the world like the Bible says (let us go after other gods, which thou has not known, and let us serve them --- aka let us follow after evolution, which is not in the Bible, and do according to its teaching and direction).

What happens when you believe evolution and follow it? Well, you don't pass the love test. God has told you the truth, and you follow something else. Adam and Eve had the same problem. Satan, via the serpent, basically called God a liar by stating that Eve would not die, as God said. Eve chose to believe Satan, which showed that she loved Satan more than God.

There are many indications in the Bible that the world was created quickly, as in 6 days quickly. However, you are free to believe. Believe whatever "prophet" you wish to follow. God does not put a restriction on belief. In fact, that is the very reason he put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, to see if we would love and believe God, or follow our own ways. So, there you have it.

Let's take a look. I'm sure you have seen the small dot in space that is earth. Consider the heavens. When you look skyward at night, try as you might, you will never see a planet as small as Earth. It takes sophisticated equipment to do so. Well, now consider how small that Earth-sized object is in space. Then consider that, of all the knowledge out there, you might know less than 1% of everything. That leaves 99% that you do not know. Consider the possibility that maybe God made the universe. If He did, don't you suppose he could build a planet Earth with the capability for you to believe either way? I mean, if He were to eliminate the fossil record, eliminate anything that can be age-dated past 6000 years, eliminate any old records of human habitation, or in other words anything that could possibly make you believe that this world is older than 6000 years, you would have to believe it was 6000 years old. Right? But He didn't, because He wants to leave you a choice: believe Him, or believe the science. It's about love.
God's love. His love for you, and your love for Him. It always was, and always will be about love.

He leaves you a little hint, tho. In the New Testament, there is the miracle at Cana. A curious verse says "This is the first miracle that Jesus did." I wondered about that verse, and asked God why He put that verse there. I was given to understand after I asked, and the meaning of the verse is this:
God created the Earth in 6 days. You see, Jesus (See John 1) created all things in the beginning, without Him nothing was made that was made. That means He created everything in Genesis, which took 6 days. In the miracle at Cana, he turned 6 waterpots of water into wine, instantly, and aged. He created the Earth aged, too. Otherwise, Adam would not have had food from the trees, for example. The name of the town, Cana, means "to create, build." Take it for what you will, but as you can see, for a Christian, it's God's reassurance that this creation we live in was created instantly, and aged.

So, you see, evolution is scientific evidence. Believe what you wish, and God will see if you love Him and follow Him, or not.

It's up to you.

Originally posted by jkrog08
if these are all "in our heads" then how do you explain Architeuthis Dux or Mesonychoteuthis Hamiltoni and their stunning relationship to the Kraken (another supposed myth)?

You seem to have missed the point. There's no need for me to "explain" Architeuthis... We've had physical and biologic evidence of its existence for years, the creature was actually captured live on film fairly recently, and it's been discussed at length on ATS: Architeuthis Thread(s).

There's been a lot of conjecture, but nobody has proven that Architeuthis attains the enormous size attributed to it in legend. I mean, we're talking about a sinker of ships, and that's pretty damned big. Has yet to be proven, and probably never will be proven, in spite of the tantalizing anecdotes from respectable seafarers.

— Doc Velocity

Another great thread Raven. Glad to see people looking after the Crypto forum.

Good points made throughout the thread...

BUT we need to be careful with the crypto forum and pointing fingers at the "OMG Pegasus might be real" threads and calling them stupid...

Cryptozoology has two kinds of supporters:
There those you'll typically see in threads like these. We're here because of our love for nature and perhaps more specifically animals. We take a scientific approach when we discuss creatures like Bigfoot, Vampires, Griffins and what not... We have good knowledge of nature and how things work.
Then you have the other group. Those that believe that there is a magical side to Cryptozoology. People that believe vampires exist, there are people that have the ability to change into wolves, and there are fairies living in magical trees in the forest.

We (the folks from the first group) tend to through these into the "mythical beasts" basket. Just because we cannot scientifically fit a creature into a little box we call it a myth. We think we're better than "the other group".

One of the reasons we look down on them is because a relatively big part of this group consist of younger people. Children (unbound by our rules of physics and natural science) are more susceptible to the idea of creatures we would typically call "mythical". Does that mean that they don't deserve their fair share of the crypto forum? Of course not.

One of the best examples I always use is the platypus. Scientists "back home" threw it in the "mythical creature" basket when they first heard of it. And if you think about it (the platypus) do you blame them?

For years adult men (and women) believed in mermaids and "kraken". At some stage the scientists decided that both these creatures were mythical. However, today we know the idea of Kraken isn't as fanciful as we first thought. And I'm yet to hear a satisfying explanation for mermaids. The idea that experienced sailors mistook manatees for beautiful women is so farfetched it's laughable.

I'm not saying we shouldn't take a scientific approach to the field of Cryptozoology. I always have Occam's Razor at the back of my mind. We should, however, also keep an open mind. We work according to our little rule book full of scientific laws. We don't know for a fact that there are pages missing from our list of rules. For all we know there is supposed to be a whole chapter on "magical energy" in our rule books.

Investigate field of Cryptozoology the way you've been doing. But respect those that believe vampires are real. Personally I walk huge circles around the vampire threads (thus the reason the crypto forum turned into a vampire mess)... Listen to what the other group have to say about the creatures they believe are real. Chances are you will always have a scientific explanation for them. But sometimes you will NOT have an answer. And times like that you should really think about what you think you know.

I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. I haven't thought much about this topic, but now I'll look into it. Scientists are discovering new species all the time--I wouldn't be surprised if we find some cryptids turn out to be real.

Cryptozoology for me simply means search for new and old (mythical) species of animals.. also think animals thats supposedly extinct would fall into the crypto category imho. Like say Tazmanian Tigers and Moa birds.

Since ape like creatures have been reported in many places over the world.. one would think that a few unknown species of apes and or even neanderthals would be running around

Also this planet has more water than land.. so its not so hard to imagine that there could be plesiosaurs alive out there somewhere..

Pterosaurs and Thunderbirds (maybe the extinct Argentavis) also comes to mind when thinking of cryptozoology.

I think this is the first time a crypto thread has made the front page of ATS since the Bigfoot-freezer hoax.

Raven is to be commended for getting this neglected forum some much needed traffic.

Lets just hope the maturity level that has emerged of late sticks around. It has been great to see some constructive discussion going again.

Well, I think we have more physical evidence supporting the existence vampires and werewolves than we have evidence for BigFoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

I'm not a "magic realm" person, I don't think humans can voluntarily or involuntarily metamorphose into animals in the physical sense. We may see such a thing demonstrated as fact within our lifetimes, I wouldn't be surprised, given the leaps we are making in genetic research and nanotechnology. But, for the time being, no, I don't think there's any firm evidence for therianthropy.

However, I do know that human beings have a lot of wiring in their heads that can become seriously screwed up.

I know there are people who very seriously believe that they are vampires, and they live a lifestyle to buttress that belief, which includes the drinking of human blood. Personally, I think these people are sick in the head and are in dire need of serotonin reuptake inhibitors to ease them back into the real world, before they take further and more gruesome action to fulfill their sick fantasies.

That's the rub. There are whole eccentric groups of people out there who do drink human blood, and who, in worst case scenarios, will stalk and attack and even murder human victims in order to drink their blood. These are known facts, the data is contained in police reports and psychological studies. Now... How much more "real" does a vampire have to be?

Yes, there are purists out there who may say "Those aren't supernatural vampires, those are sick individuals empowered by a culture that tolerates and indeed celebrates alternative lifestyles."

So, should we not be alarmed because these blood-sucking psychos don't physically transform into stupid, fluttering bats? If the self-proclaimed "vampire" only fits 80% of the job description, do we just smile knowingly and turn our backs on him?

We're letting strict science cloud our reasoning, I think.

Same thing with lycanthropy — there are many case histories of human beings who seriously believed that they transformed into wolves. These are psychotic individuals, you understand. They get down on all fours, they sniff the air, they howl at the moon, they growl menacingly.

To us, they appear to be normal human beings, even when they think they have "transformed"... Because, see, lycanthropy takes place in the mind. It's not a magical curse, it's not Lon Chaney Jr. covered in special effects make-up, it's a mental problem.

Whew! What a relief! Lycanthropy is only a mental problem! I sure am glad I have Science to tell me these things, because it makes me feel more secure!

Charles Fort recorded a few cases of lycanthropy in his research, and one of those cases always sticks out in my mind. It was the case of a man who "transformed" into a wolf — in his mind, of course — and went on a bit of a rampage in a city graveyard. He dug up bodies with his hands, ripped the corpses to pieces and threw body parts up into the branches of trees. Just a bit of redecorating, I suppose. He then collapsed in an open grave and was discovered by police the next morning.

He dug up graves with his bare hands. Think about that. How many graves (plural) do you think you could dig up with your bare hands in one night? I perspire heavily and need several breaks when planting tomatoes with my bare hands in my garden, nevermind digging up multiple corpses.

So, you start to get this image of a guy who thought he was a wolf, positively bursting with superhuman strength, frantically tearing at the earth with his fingers, exhuming caskets, opening them, removing bodies and then tearing the bodies to pieces. No doubt snacking on a few choice bits as he hurled human arms and legs up into the trees. He was a wolf, after all.

Insane? Oh, at least. Would you feel safe living in the same neighborhood with that guy? The same town? Probably not.

Does it make lycanthropy less horrific because it's not "supernatural"? I think the fact that it's a real mental disorder makes it 10X more horrifying than any medieval legend. I mean, there could be somebody like that living in my town, maybe on my street, maybe next door.

So how much more "real" does it have to get to make an impression on the jaded public? Why should an individual who thinks he is a werewolf and who amply performs like a werewolf not be considered a werewolf? Simply because he doesn't physically change into a canine?

And there it is... We have more evidence for real and verifiable human monsters — vampires and werewolves, no less — in our midst than we do for BigFoot & Nessie. How do we react? With complacency. Vampires and werewolves do exist and have received the scientific seal of approval, we think. So they no longer hold interest for us, except as trendy counterculture movements (yawn).

Meanwhile, BigFoot & Nessie are unresolved and still have our undivided attention, because we want and need unsolvable mysteries.

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Good points, however I disagree the Vampire and Werewolf examples you mentioned are a cryptozoology topic.

If the supernatural side was present, then yes, it would most likely fall under the banner of a separate species for study.

However, these attention seekers (or truly mentally convinced individuals) are no more or less human than you and I.

Their brains may work differently, and they may live their life as a supernatural entity, but they are still genetically human.

The medical community should be far more evident in the study of Porphyria and related conditions. I don't think it is Cryptozoology's responsibility to help with mental illnesses.

As far as evidence is concerned, there is 0 evidence of the existence of the actual separate species of Vampires and Werewolves. I doubt any will ever be found, because to me their existence is laughable. (Then again, I've been told I'm crazy for believing in (and seeing) the Yowie too, so each to their own).

You are right tho, Doc. There is plenty of evidence that there are humans out there who live as, and believe they are, various supernatural entities.

To diverge a bit, I'd be happy if those individuals were discussed in more detail in the forum. Sadly, the Vampire and Werewolf topics of late are all focused around the teenage Hollywood fascination. They are always full of immaturity and posers. It is a shame, because if the history of the myths was discussed more often it would be interesting.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Thanks op, your post was very insightful. What really worries me is that the problems you state are not confined in the area of cryptozoology. The popular hoaxes and the culture associated with them is a curse for many subjects covered by this forum.

There are so many different species in nature that we cannot possibly have cataloged each and every one of them. Each area has it's own rare life, sometimes only seen by local populations (and considered normal by them...). Other times, especially in confined environments "strange" life thrives far away from human observation. There have been many really exotic forms of life that were recently discovered. Please do not stop the research in "big animals". Extremophiles live in acids, alkalic environments, in rocks and extreme temperatures. Plants and organisms can be fed of stones. In some caves we have full sustainable cycles of life not dependent on oxygen or photosynthesis. Those complete eco-systems live on sulfur. We have volcanic, deep sea thriving organisms as well.

To be honest, I find it nearly impossible when we see these, that life, not necessarily as we expect it to be, is not all around us in our solar system and beyond. With our current knowledge there is nothing that forbids life inside the earth, as weird as it sounds. I believe we have lots to learn and discover yet and the first step is to stop searching only for carbon based, oxygen consuming life.

The stories about fairies, werewolves, unicorns, yetis etc I find hard to believe only because of one element: reproduction. If the population is so small and sparse that we cannot spot and photograph even one member of said species and they are supposed to live on land... how would they mate? Surviving in earth is a difficult task without reproducing systematically.

By the way, regarding dinosaurs:

Dinosaurs. In my last thread, I discussed this in some detail. But evidence for the existence of dinosaur-like cryptids is fueling the Young Creationism movement in Christianity. What puzzles me is why use the word dinosaur. Horseshoe crabs are dinosaurs technically. So are sponges. Really, they've been around ages. Why not talk about herpetological cryptids. This way, you can see what's actually lurking around without using words that will attract or detract people like "dinosaur." It's fine. It's just not accurate. Some people have ulterior motives for supporting the existence of these cryptids, and that makes me question how many people are out there bending sighting reports and things.

I have to disagree. Dinosaurs are by definition large reptiles (large lizards is the literal Greek meaning of the word) not just old species.

Thanx again

thesdocos

[edit on 3/6/09 by thesdoc]

I am interested in the subject very much. This is actually the first forum I find on the subject. Then again I never really looked. I had no clue (for some dumb reason) that other cryptids are alive much less existed. I would love to know more! Imagine cryptid hunting. @[email protected] with that..Im new to ATS. How would I mark this forum so I could find it later? Thanks you. SOme basics of ATS would help. Im a lost mess.

reply to post by sergiyakun


Flag it to save it on your forum list.

For crying out loud...
can we get raven & fooffstarr a "Subject Matter Expert" badge already!?

I have always interpreted 'cryptozoology' as a sci-fi subtopic. Since i'm more interested in reality then fantasy, i rarely venture in such areas... but after reviewing this thread maybe i was wrong to peg the subject as merely imaginative speculation. Matter of fact, i may have created a couple cryptozoo threads without ever knowing it...

Thousands of New Species are Discovered on a Tiny Island in Origins & Creationism

Extinct ibex is resurrected by cloning in Breaking Alternative News

Mods... if these threads are a better fit for this forum, please feel free to transfer,
maybe they will help by example, broaden the scope of perceived discussion.

[edit on 3-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by Piranha


hi,

i just signed up to tell you this story that my dad told me,

when my dad was a kid him and his friends decided to walk out(in order to understand this you got to live in my town) to the airport(i dont know why) he crossed the train tracks and kept on walking and he just happened to look down in a ditch, he saw what he described to be a decaying monkey, but he said it just had the structure of a monkey, it had fur and stuff but it looked very different, like a combination of a toddler and an orangatan(?).....im sorry if i cant remember alll the details but its been awhile since hes told me

It's amazing, the countless forms that exist on this Earth, many we haven't even discovered yet, isn't it!

when I was young in the 70's and loved dinosaurs, my dad made me look at an article about a crytoid fish found in the pacific? I'm all for this stuff!!

Originally posted by fooffstarr
Sadly, the Vampire and Werewolf topics of late are all focused around the teenage Hollywood fascination. They are always full of immaturity and posers. It is a shame, because if the history of the myths was discussed more often it would be interesting.

Yeah, I never meant to imply that human vampires and werewolves were a separate species, only that our collective belief in vampires and werewolves is entirely comparable to our collective belief in the BigFoot and Nessie phenomena. I think such beliefs, while amusing, are stilll vital to our own evolution as an "intelligent" species, in that they serve as iconic mysteries that tittilate our curiosity and nudge us along in our mental growth. Call them intellectual pacifiers that keep our brains busy between real-life survival situations.

Actually, in my previous post, I was responding to Gemwolf, who observed:

"Investigate [the] field of Cryptozoology the way you've been doing. But respect those that believe vampires are real. Personally I walk huge circles around the vampire threads (thus the reason the crypto forum turned into a vampire mess)... Listen to what the other group have to say about the creatures they believe are real."

— Doc Velocity




[edit on 6/3/2009 by Doc Velocity]

I'll respond in a bit, okay? To everyone. Thank you for the praise, and I enjoy the back-and-forth going on here. Honestly I do think that werewolves could be real, but not the way we generally think of them. I think that the evidence for aquatic cryptids (like lake monsters) is tremendous, but that's okay, too.

Even though I disagree personally, I appreciate and was pleased to read that many have found a happy balance between evolution and religion.

I really am honored! I have a good thread idea lined up for um... some point soon? I have some sort of pre-grad banquet thing tonight so I'm trying to get ready for that and I can't go through the thread right now. I promise I will, though.

I'm glad that this forum is getting more recognition.

I'd like the welcome those who are newer and who show interest in the field, from the cryptozoological side of the forum.

I don't take part in the mythical side of the forum. Primarily, I don't enjoy hominid discussion as much as other species, and that's why my interest in Bigfoot, Mothman, Vampires, Werewolves, and Fairies is less. I consider them mythical. They are not cryptozoological, for the most part. Perhaps a new word is in order. I'll go ahead and throw "cryptoanthropological" out there. Do you like it? Haha.

I'm not saying that I think those people are crazy. Yes, I get really mad when vampire threads take over the board. But I also get mad when colossal squid threads, or Nessie threads, take over the board as well. I'm a big fan of building off other threads, in the original threads. It's neater.

Honestly, I'm not interest in literature, or legends, or things like that which form the basis for these cryptoanthropological ideas. I'm into hypothesizing about zoology (and occasionally botany). But I like of dislike anatomy and physiology of humans and saying "they could have this disorder," etc. It's not my area of expertise- the mythical or cryptoanthropological part of this split forum.

But an anaconda is different than a vampire and will always be different. Apparently there is nothing else like a vampire to connect it to, no fossil remains, and most sightings have some sort of paranormal side to them. I'm sorry, but it's not my thing.

I wish this forum was not split, sometimes. Just because people get offended and I'm not trying to demean that side of the board. Just the lesser side of the cryptozoological part which has been reduced mainly to hoaxes, and to youtube videos of creatures that we know exist, with very little crypto information.

I also love compilations of different cryptids, but if they all have their own place already on the board in individual threads, why sew a bunch of them together? It contributes less to the information on each individual cryptid.

But that's just me and I need to go pain my nails now. I wrote more than I had meant to, haha, but more later.

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Cryptozoology is not limited to bigfoot and nessie. Bigfoot and nessie are primarily comprised of hoaxes. Similar cryptids have been ignored for lack of media coverage.

So I'll agree with you there, if you're saying that they're just as mythical as vampires.

But again, this thread is "Cryptozoology AND Mythical Beasts."

If you cannot think of a better cryptid to use as an example, allow me to throw a coelacanth in your face. Or a colossal squid, but I probably can't lift one by myself.

reply to post by Totalstranger


Was it a coelacanth? It's basically a dinosaur-fish. They're awesome! It was one of the first times cryptozoologists went "Omigosh, we're right."