Why is it the ATS members are forgetting their motto? Deny Ignorance!

Over the last few months I have watched the forums here at Abovetopsecret.com seem to deteriorate into argument rather that intelligent debate.

I am rather worried as this is putting me off from reading many subjects I once enjoyed.

When once the threads were met with clear, concise, insightful opinions they are now met with close minded, unchangeable, rigid statements.

I for one came here to learn and expand my mind not have someone push their beliefs on me or argue that my opinion is wrong just because.
Arnt these forums meant for denying ignorance?

There are many posts, written by the ATS staff themselves that relates to this matter. They have noticed this as well, created threads about it, but it hasnt stopped the tide that has been increasing over the last few months.

Let me quote a few passages from important posts to allow a better understanding of the situation at hand...

DENYING IGNORANCE

The motto of ATS is 'Deny Ignorance'. Two very simple words with simple meanings, yet when combined, a most powerful paradigm is established. How is ignorance denied? Information. Where does information come from? People. Who can you trust? No one! So what can you do? It's simple. If you can't trust anybody, perhaps you can trust everybody! ATS is where you go to put an ear to the ground. It is a most valuable resource. It is a growing global community of freethinking, open-minded people who share a sense of urgency about current events and their effects on the future of mankind. It is the denial of ignorance that binds us together.

We must end the rising "culture of negativity" (SOLUTION POSTED)

Many of our senior staff and I have noticed an increasing trend on ATS over the past several months that needs to be addressed, and I'm calling it the "Culture of Negativity."
*SNIP*
While it's certainly true that harsh criticism of a speculative theory or debunking attempt is not a personal attack, upon further review, we're seeing an unsettling increase in those who appear to be here for no purpose other than to present harsh arguments from one side of whichever fence is their preference. Where a few pointed contributions on a passionate subject may be appropriate, even welcomed, when it becomes a posting pattern or even a defining style, then it's a problem.

The Rise Of The ATS Invertebrate: or, it takes a spine to be a conspiracy theorist.

The staff and I have noticed a distinct rise in a certain type of complaint via the complaint form, thread/post alerts, our contact form, and even in public drama-thread attempts. This distinct type of complaint has many forms and various styles of presentation, but all-in-all, can be condensed down to a simple common denominator, and to be blunt it is best described as: spinelessness.
*SNIP*
What we're now seeing, in a wide variety of forums and topics, are relatively new members (less than one-year of ATS membership) with a scattering of old-hands, is a distinct trend toward heightened sensitivity. More and more of the complaints we see are little more than the result of being overly thin-skinned about criticism of a viewpoint.

Civility And Decorum Are Required on AboveTopSecret.com

It has come to the attention of our staff (and many members utilizing our system for complaints) that a general tone of angst has infected AboveTopSecret.com, diminishing the civility and decorum we require from all participants.
*SNIP*
Beginning now, as of the time-stamp of this post, we will be returning to strictly enforcing the long-standing rules of civility and decorum that have been the hallmarks of AboveTopSecret.com. More specifically:

(1) Any posts/replies that focuses on a member rather than the topic of the thread, or follow the normal evolution of a thread's focus, will be subject to warnings.

(2) Any posts/replies that contain a direct insult of another member will be subject to immediate posting bans, without warning.

(3) Typical "Decorum" and "Political Trolling" posts will be under closer scrutiny, and may be removed with the warning icons.
*SNIP*
Our intent here is to operate a free and open discussion venue, where civility and decorum rule the day, so that the focus is on important and provocative issues, not each other. All members, new and old, need to have complete confidence that their ideas, theories, observations, and opinions can be posted to ATS with the complete confidence that replies will remain focused on the issues in the spirit of collaborative learning and understanding.

Insults, ad-hominim attacks, and gratuitous arguing have no place here.

erms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s)

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.
*SNIP*
5) Personal Responsibilities: At all times, you agree to remain solely responsible for anything found within your posts, images, and videos and agree to indemnify and hold The Above Network, LLC, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of any material you submit, post to or transmit through the message board, your use of the message board, your connection to the message board, your violation of these terms and conditions, or your violation of the rights of another.
*SNIP*
9)Term of These Agreed Upon Conditions By joining the website(s) governed under these Terms And Conditions, you agree to honor these rules for so long as your account status remains active, and for 18 months after the termination of any account privileges due to violation of these conditions or other guidelines.

When the members of our beloved ATS.com forget their motto it brings saddness to those who remember it.

Deny Ignorance.


This motto has life. It has purpose. It demands ATS members to think.

It is a state of mind.

It is a sense of purpose.

It is a statement against the paradigm.

It is a rage against the mindless status-quo.

The idea of "deny ignorance" isn't a goal that ATS hopes to accomplish. Instead, it's a challenge. A call to all those who come here to aspire to a higher state of awareness through informed discussion and debate.

Deny ignorance is what we do.

It's how we think. It's how we talk. It's how we listen.

Ignorance is the creeping crud of history that has clouded our minds and dulled our brains. Is the evil that men do, the reason history repeats, and the cause of intolerance.

We deny it. it's not welcome here. Within these boundaries, it has no strength.


Here, ignorance is denied.

[edit on 5/31/2009 by Tentickles]

And for every reason you posted, I joined ATS. I aspire to deny ignorance. It takes leaders and little guys rationally discussing the ideas, the facts and the in-betweens. I'd like to be a part of that. Changing our thinking processes to deny ignorance may take a few trials and errors for some. But effort should be applauded. IMHO. ♥

reply to post by Hazelnut


You have insight as stunning as the lightning in your avatar my friend. It is great to see others who understand what ATS is for!

Originally posted by Tentickles
When once the threads were met with clear, concise, insightful opinions they are now met with close minded, unchangeable, rigid statements.

I have noticed this as well. I might suggest the paranoid perspective that this is an attempt to shut us down through attrition and divisiveness (divide and conquer).

Me? I'm staying. I don't care. I usually don't hear back from the ones whose heart is not behind their words.

Problem solved.

reply to post by chissler


I agree with your statement but I am more inclined to describe it this way...
There are people who come here who are open to ideas, can change their opinions and have no qualms with doing so.

Then there are people who come here absolutely set in their opinions even when proved wrong with facts.

Usually the conversations go like this.

Open person: I understand what you are saying, but...

Closed person: No, you are completely wrong I am right.

This is a generalized view...

reply to post by Tentickles

Tentikles...Your passion and sheer gumption are admirable.!!

It appears that many posters just like to hear or see themselves talk. And round and round it goes.

I look at ATS as a source for:
Current events
Off the wall news
International thought
Emotional repartee
Lots of useful information
Lots of useless information
Skeptical conjecture
and the debating of all of the above.

Perhaps, members could look at responding as if sitting across the coffee table from one another instead of just pounding out whatevers. This is a great venue!!

Peace...

I think ATS is simply growing, that is all. It will get better, I have faith in ATS, its' members, and its' staff.

reply to post by Tentickles

What I find telling is the emotional investment in some obscure bit of data...

I mean, why is it so important to assassinate character of a source and without discussion of the truth of what the source had to say?

I'm seeing that more and more.

reply to post by Tentickles


The closest analogy I can think of to this predicament is not very "politically correct" in how I would initially like to word it...but I'm gonna try.

Forgive me if I mess up here.

Language is a mutable, complex entity in it's own right.

Humans are just as complex and mutable - and some evolve past certain stages faster than others.

The trick here is that for the faster students and higher level participants and contibutors to maintain in mind that....well, class is in session sometimes - with guests.

It's always nice to associate solely with our peers and learn from those more advanced than ourselves - but it's our RESPONSIBILITY to be patient with the "new kids" who just transfered over from that other school of thought.

They're here because they want away from a crumbling system - they want answers - they want the truth and the benefit of a higher institute of learning...but in the same respect, they also have to "shake off" and work through their previous conditioning before they are receptive to some of the more elevated concepts.

It's tough being both a student and teacher at the same time - especially when you're working towards that doctorate and you're in your third year and suddenly you have the class interrupted by someone who still hasn't socially evolved past the junior high level.

But they're here for a reason. They just need a little time to acclimate and learn the ropes of the new school. Those who show potential will eventually move beyong the inital phases and begin to adapt to the Higher Paradigm and those who can't will just drop out eventually and move on to something else until they "get it".

I know it's frustrating. Oh heavens, do I ever! Sometimes i have to log off ATS for weeks just to recompose myself when the kiddos are swarming en masse.

The reason people forget to "Deny Ignorance" may be because some of us simply forget, as one or two bad apples slip in and provide bad experience the old may begin to shun the new, hoping to scare them off and return to the "good old days"

It may be that ATS is being infiltrated in an attempt to destroy it.

My opinion, is that like all things its meaning is being perverted, regardless of reason. What we are seeing, especially when a member uses it as an insult against those whose opinions differ, is the same thing we see in the perversion of gospels. Religious extremism twists and distorts in order to vilify the "heretics". Some still know the original meaning and practice it in true form while others twist the original intention to meet their needs.

Ignorance may as well, mean different things to different people. More arrogant members may believe ignorant people are those who don't agree with them. Unfortunate, but no doubt part of human nature... knowing what's best.I've seen it spouted when one has no intelligent recourse, and thinks to end the discussion with a snide remark at another's intelligence. It has even been used as a weapon against those with intelligent skeptical points who may point out obvious faults in "evidence". A person is ill-defined as ignorant because they have evidence contrary to a believers "Proof-positive" video.**

Deny Ignorance has become less of a slogan and more of a catch-phrase; with numerous interpretations used to divide members amongst themselves within the community. The same thing has likely happened before in lots of groups of people who share and idea.

Look at the history of American Politics. We all believe in the constitution, but think we know better than the other on how to run the country, splitting people between parties repeatedly as time went on.

Like all things the meaning of Deny Ignorance can and will be perverted.


**these examples are not necessarily patterns, simply past uses noticed by this poster..

Over the last few months I have watched the forums here at Abovetopsecret.com seem to deteriorate into argument rather that intelligent debate.

Totally agree Tentickles. I lurked here for about 6 months before registering and even I have seen the quality of some of the threads deteriorate to the point where some bizarre personal argument disrupts a thread and takes it way off tangent. I've seen too much personal rivalry derail a thread to the point where I lose interest.

Everyone here at ATS has the ability and the knowledge to create an awesome community with something for everyone. Right now it seems to be slightly off-kilter.

With great respect to all posters - myself included - the only way we can change ATS for the better is to think and 'Deny Ignorance' with each and every post we make. We don't all agree on every subject, and we shouldn't. Some of my best friends have totally polar viewpoints to this world then I do.

I welcome different ideas and enjoy the opportunity to debate subjects. But, if you are going to debate a topic, please learn how to debate intelligently and don't revert to the lowest common denominator.

My posting rules for myself:

1. Don't flame. Ever. If you get annoyed with a reply to a post then take a walk and don't just 'reflex' post.

2. People change. Just because you don't agree with somebody on one topic doesn't mean they automatically become your enemy.

3. If I see people attacking one another for no reason I will not pick sides. You are both stupid and I want nothing to do with you.

4. Accept new ideas and investigate different ways of thinking. You won't lose your personal identity. Trust me.

5. There are some threads I won't respond to. Overtly religious or political threads seem to attract the most flames. I don't have to post my opinion, and there's lots of other more deserving threads to contribute to.

6. I'm 31. So I act like a 31 year old (even though I'm still a kid at heart)

7. And talking of hearts, don't wear yours on you sleeve.

8. There are people here that I find to have a great ability to construct brilliant arguments, so I seek those threads out.

9. This is not your house. Treat it with respect.

10. Respect the people, especially new people (hey, it's intimidating sometimes joining here). Lets them find out how ATS works before flaming them to a crisp over some trivial thing.

So there you go. Common sense really, but I've never written them down before.

Cheers

Shane

When a site like this starts out, it has a small hardcore membership.

Most members therefore accept 9/11 "the government did it" theories and chemtrail conspiracies without question - they don't so deny ignorance as ignore it.

As your membership grows, you get more dissent, with at least an equal number who don't believe anything, even the obvious.

Therefore, I would consider the current level of dissent as a sign of ATS' success.

The thing about "Deny Ignorance" is that it is a two edged sword...

A person who firmly believes that 911 was done by 9 terrorists will consider all those who say the government did it are the 'ignorant ones and therefor will work hard to deny our ignorance... then get angry when it doesn't work.

I have seen so many posts where the term "Deny Ignorance" is used in the context "Deny everything that I don't agree with"

reply to post by zorgon


Yep, I think that sums up how it usually goes

But I wonder if really the problem is one of interpretation? Ignorance is absence of information. Surely therefore denying ignorance is the act of spreading information to others, information that they were previously unaware of?

Denying ignorance might also take the form of encouraging people to question the validity of existing information and their interpretation of it (and the interpretation of others).

But it is not about making others interpret such information in the same way that we do. Which seems to be the way most seem to interpret the phrase.

Well I understand with this, but I dont get it. I think people are taking much offense to the rude people. Theres ganna be rude and mean people everywhere. Just ignore it.

Sometimes I feel like I have to be nice all the time on these threads because if I get in a heated discussion, ill be banned for it.

I can see if someone is being completely rude and mean ALL THE TIME, sure, Ban them.

But if once in awhile someone gets a little too heated on something they feel passionate about, they shouldnt be banned for it. Were all human.

I dont know im just ranting.

By the very nature of the topics that ATS covers, it has a tendency to attract zealotry. The one thing that is impossible with a zealot is intelligent, logical debate. You're either a kook or a dis-info agent depending on what side of the fence you stand.

Both tags are equally unacceptable, yet only one of those labels carries a T&C penalty. This is my observation and it chafes my butt no end! It's inequities such as this that inflame debate as one side can clearly call names and make personal attacks and the other cannot. Frustration eventually raises it's ugly head (understandably) and then you have yet another s*** fight.

Could people be more civilized? Certainly - but the playing field cannot be tilted to one sides favor. That is the essence of civility.

IRM

Here is a thread worth noting.

Not too many years ago, the community climate was slightly different.
Can climate of digital enviorns change like the weather, or is it the standards to which we uphold our selves and others?

Deny Ignorance. 

This motto has life. It has purpose. It demands ATS members to think. It is a state of mind. 

It is a sense of purpose. It is a statement against the paradigm. It is a rage against the mindless status-quo. 

The idea of "deny ignorance" isn't a goal that ATS hopes to accomplish. Instead, it's a challenge. 

A call to all those who come here to aspire to a higher state of awareness through informed discussion and debate. Deny ignorance is what we do. It's how we think. It's how we talk. It's how we listen.

 Ignorance is the creeping crud of history that has clouded our minds and dulled our brains. Is the evil that men do, the reason history repeats, and the cause of intolerance. We deny it. it's not welcome here.

Within these boundaries, it has no strength. 

Here, ignorance is denied. 

I have been on this forum since 2004 , was always enjoying, while i am passive on most things , I like to draw information from this website on matters that interest me. However lately you get a few members that hijack some threads and just bombard them with their pushy statements and dare you say otherwise or suggest something else you get labeled instantly. To be honest i lost interest in reading some topics, once i see those names again i just close the browser and go somewhere else. I have noticed some old members who with only one post can influence your perspective of a particular topic , because it is so balanced so greatly structure and informative that its a pleasure to read, have also stopped posting. I do not blame them i feel the same.