A Medieval UFO?

Some of you may have seen this picture before...I find it very captivating. Its a detail from an illuminated medieval manuscript. It is supposed to be a member of one of the Angelic Orders, I believe, such as a Cherubim or Seraphim, etc. but I can't remember which one. It may be enclosed in a shooting star....or perhaps a spacecraft? You decide...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2d90bf1f62f9.jpg[/atsimg]

Okay. First it isn't from a manuscript, at least to my knowledge. It's a tiny part of a painting. You can find this when you google UFO's in art. In the painting there is also a yellow or orange vehicle with a person in it chasing, or seeming to chase this iimage. It's believed to represent the sun following the moon in the sky.

There is a website, I can't recall what the addy is, but you will undoubtedly find ifr you google. Anyway, it's all explained in terms of art history of the time of this painting.

I'm on the fence about this painting. While I can understand the viewpoint of the critic that debunks all the "UFO's in art" stuff, I am still not convinced. It's all speculation as far as I am concerned.

I think, why would an artist paint two sky ships with what looks like people operating them so long ago?

Anyway, I wish I had the links for the pros and cons of such paintings, but that computer is long dead. lol.

Personally, I tend to think that artists of these ancient times were expressing what I express in some of my paintings. That people have seen unexplainable things in the sky. I can't remember when this painting was done nor can I remember the title of the painting. But it was a very busy painting of Christ on the cross and there were many different objects in it and this item you posted was small in comparison to the rest of the painting. It was pre-rennasaince (fprgive my spelling) and it was most probably commissioned by the Catholic church and artists of that time were told what to paint and how to paint. After all, they were being paid to do the bidding of the contractor.

Anyway, your explanation of what it is about is new to me.

I'll try to find the links I looked at a few years ago and also the title of the original painting this was taken from.

Its part of a painting done on a wall in a church in Kosovo. It's from a painting titled Crucifixion. It was painted in 1350. Who knows, now, what the artist or the purchasers were thinking when this was painted? I tend to believe that it was based on some real life experience of someone involved in the creation of the painting. Or, maybe, based on a vision, like a modern day science fiction writer might see.

The artist's name is unknown at this time.

I love these old paintings that show celestial events and objects in the skies.

Have you ever seen the painting of the war that took place above Nuremburg hundreds of years ago?
Awesome! flying ships blasting each other with rays of some sort of power. And there are written records of this event as well.

You don't learn this stuff in public school!

reply to post by kyred


Hi S.T.,
I think it totally plausable that this is indeed a UFO. They are seen now, and have probably been since time began.
Think back to the churchs' mentality of the Rennaisance- inquisitions, torture, murder infidels as a penance etc; unorthodox subjects were treated with care.
Therefore, it was probably more convenient to incorporate these subjects into the iconic world of the reigning religions (depending on what world locale you resided).
The Bayeaux Tappestry also has a wonderful example of what I was taught to be Halleys Comet? But I've never seen any convincing proof on that either.
Maybe it is indeed a representation of Seraphim, I wonder though how many individuals knew their bibles; rather than having interpretations spoon-fed to them by others that have actually read it.
It was probably like today: so few have the patience to read it, so many would rather depend on blind faith- its easier!
Heres a lonk that may be interesting!

I know that it may sound strange, but they are the Sun (left) and the Moon (right):
to represent them in some anthropomorphic (and surrounded by something) way was very ordinary especially during the middle age, basically the Sun and the Moon are represented as some human-like witnesses to the cucifixion:





Now, this would have been interesting if it was some unique case AND if it was corroborated by some report: but on the contrary, not only the thory of the presence of two UFOs comes from nowhere, but there are a lot of examples depicting the same scene in almost exactly the same way: in bizantine paintings, but not only:

James Hall, author of the "Dictionary of Subjects & Symbols In Art" writes:
“ The sun and moon, one on each side of the cross, are a regular feature of Medieval crucifixions. They survived into the early Renaissance but are seldom seen after the 15th century. Their origin is very ancient. It was the custom to represent the sun and moon in images of the pagan sun gods of Persia and Greece, a practice that was carried over into Roman times on coins depicting the emperors.”
(...) The sun is[sometimes represented as simply a man’s bust with a radiant halo, the moon as a woman’s with the crescent of Diana. Later they are reduced to two plain disks, the moon having a crescent within the
circle, may be borne by angels. The sun appears on Christ's right, the moon on his left.”

www.sprezzatura.it...

Even in the very same Decany monastery there are more anthropomorphic representations of the Sun and the Moon, but they have been always omitted to be mentioned by the books/websites supporting

the UFOs during the crucifixion theory



...or they could also have mentioned this example

but aliens flying on wagons drawn by horses and by oxen are not that impressive
www.srpskoblago.org...
www.kosovo.net...
www.sprezzatura.it...


The UFO 'battle' over Nuremberg, Germany, April 4 1561, is way more interesting, in my humble opinion:

At sunrise on the 14th April 1561, the citizens of Nuremberg beheld "A very frightful spectacle." The sky appeared to fill with cylindrical objects from which red, black, orange and blue white disks and globes emerged. Crosses and tubes resembling cannon barrels also appeared whereupon the objects promptly "began to fight one another." This event is depicted in a famous 16th century woodcut by Hans Glaser.

April 1561 - A War In Heaven?

One of the most astounding of documented sightings of aerial phenomena took place in 1561 over Nuremberg, Germany. What was described could only be called a war in the heavens, with a wide variety of craft ranging from spheres to spear-like cylinders to crosses. The sky was apparently filled with the machines, clashing in battle. Comets and such were well identified and charted in this period, so it is highly unlikely that what the people witnessed was merely a celestial phenomenon like a 'meteor shower', as some debunkers suggest. Rather, what is described are physical objects of unique detail and shapes, in 'battle' for over an hour. The battle was such that a winner was perceived as well. Spheroid UFOs were seen emerging from cylindrical 'motherships'. At the conclusion of the battle, it seems a magnificent, black, spear-like super-ship of some kind came upon the scene...

It began at dawn, as dozens, if not hundreds, of crosses, globes and tubes fought each other above the city. It ended an hour later, when "the globes in the small and large rods flew into the sun," and several of the other objects crashed to earth and vanished in a thick cloud of smoke.

www.rense.com...

Now this is much harder to explain, isn't it?
Thanks for sharing

Originally posted by internos
Now this is much harder to explain, isn't it?

Indeed. The "man in the moon" is easily explainable as an abstract, not a UFO. It can be compared with other paintings. But the Nuremburg event... That's just WTF? Even for a skeptic like me

Originally posted by kyred

Have you ever seen the painting of the war that took place above Nuremburg hundreds of years ago?
Awesome! flying ships blasting each other with rays of some sort of power. And there are written records of this event as well.

I think this one deserves a thread on its own! I would love to know more about it.

reply to post by merka

Anything can be rationalized and encompassed by religion! If you doubt this, you are not trying hard enough.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


Heres two other strange reports:

France,1608:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/55b87f3310c0.jpg[/atsimg]

In August 1608, the inhabitants of the South France, from Marseilles to Genoa, witness a true UFO flap, reported in a chronicle entitled "Discours des terribles et espouvantables signes apparus sur la mer de Gennes".
In Nice, the inhabitants see three strange luminous vessels which evolve at high speed above the city. The three machines stop near the fortress and go down above the waters where they cause the water to boil and emit a red-orange vapor.
To the great stupor of the numerous witnesses, two humanoïd beings with large heads and large luminous eyes, dressed in a red suit with silver scales, connected to the flying machine by tubes, engage themselves in several hours of strange work.

www.ufologie.net...

Germany,1697:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c077adb1e6bf.jpg[/atsimg]

This illustration shows the sighting of two UFOs over Hamburg, Germany, November 4, 1697. The objects were described as "two glowing wheels".

www.ufologie.net...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by internos


Very awesome. Thank you. I think the moon/sun theory is a great explanation for that painting. It angers me that so many UFO sites show this painting, but neglect to put it into context by telling the reader that there are many paintings like it that are less ambiguous. However, there are some even stranger religious painting that depict what looks to be UFOs. Check these out: www.crystalinks.com... www.pehi.eu... 1.bp.blogspot.com...

What do you think of those?

Also, do you know of any website that lists the different types of UFOs and the era they were the most popular?

[edit on 13-6-2009 by YSM85]

just my two euros.those stars that look like ufos are depicting the sun adn the moon.those painters that do these kind of pictures are thought to be having divine inspiration to draw them.hence he made em look like they have persons inside,because when crucifixion happened it looked as both the sun and the moon wiped,cried.this is for this specific [painting here.there are owever paintings in medieval ages that do depict imo ufos because 1.they are not holy paintings and 2. they damn look like ufos.good subject and thread but wrong painting in question



ah crap sorry if this answer looks weird.before i hit the post button 4 5 posts were faster than me and explained it.anwyay the other pictures posted are what i m talking about cheers

[edit on 13-6-2009 by IMSAM]

in 1271, Famed Buddhist figure and soical rabble-rouser Nichiren was about to be executed when something described of "as a third sun or moon" appeared, apparantly just hanging there. There are several different verisions; its hard to know what happened, but something very unusual manifested itself in the daytime sky and the execution was hastily called off by the local officials. Instead Nichren was banned to a small island (Sado, I think) where he spent his final days as a comfortable near-hermit with a small following, doing some of his best writing.

Edit to delete the post: post moved to here.


[edit on 13/6/2009 by internos]

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

There was a thread earlier this year in which Phage & a couple of the guys had a really good look at that one.
It was buried in a thread regarding a broader discussion so I'm unsure as to how to search for it.
I'll see if I can find it later.


[edit on 13-6-2009 by Sam60]

This is a matter of context, and faith . Obviously , no one who lives in this centuary can possibly imagine (accurately) what someone who was alive when this painting was done , was thinking when it was created. Least of all can anyone really know what the artist was trying to represent , because lets face it , artists are probably the least predictable , and most enigmatic figures in history .
All that can be said is that our interpretations of this art work , and the many others that appear to have connections to UFO , are subject to being swayed by our current culture, our thirst for knowlege of other worlds, and our increasingly escapist attitudes to life. What appears to you and I as a UFO may really be a metaphor for something we just wouldnt normaly consider.
Many UFO enthusiasts and researchers may latch on to these aged references to extra terrestrial life, and claim that they lay a more solid foundation for the case as a whole (ie the case for the existance of UFO and alien visitation). In my opinion these ancient references cannot be used as such foundation because we lack the cultural understanding of the time of the creation of these works meaning that we are prone to misinterpretation. However , media sources today like cameras and vidcams, allow us to examine evidence in a context we can appreciate. Also we opperate with TODAYS cultural influence on our thought processes, which means we can interact more with a piece of evidence from our own lifetimes, in a more effective and informed way, than we ever could with a painting from hundreds of years in our past.
That is not to say that art, or even this artwork in particular, are of no use whatsoever. Far from it. They are useful in terms of thier value as educational tools, assisting us in discovering more each day , what the past may have been like, but as for analysis of UFO ? Best done from photographs, video, radar, and other modern tracking methods.
Nuremberg on the other hand... well thats a whole other kettle of saltwater life.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by TrueBrit]

reply to post by internos


Not wanting to derail the thread or anything, but i had to quote this from the rense link you posted:

Elburn, Kane County, on April 10th. According to a report on the front page of the Rockford Daily Republic of April 12th, "Trainmen running through there say that the operator says that some stockmen says that some farmers says that the ship had a breakdown near there and came down for repairs."

LOL?

Apparently, we haven't gone too far since then....

I find most of the paintings from the past where the theme is religion to always, or almost always include some kind of flying object, as you have pointed out, in this case is the sun and moon, and although in most of them i do agree, i have my doubts in some cases, the 'objects' just don't 'fit' on the main theme of the paintings, or they don't look at all like anything that we can relate to, nor they look like things that, at least that we know, were part of the culture or ideologies from those days, just in some cases of course.

And then there are a few really interesting cases, those which stand on their own such as the Nuremburg one or the one in Hamburg, Germany, November 4, 1697, but who knows what they were really trying to describe?

Guess we will never know

Too bad we don't see wheels in the sky anymore.
Or people in sky sleds.
But we could if the oppressive government let out the free energy Foos.
It is not the fault of the ancients now, we know what the UFO is and
how it works and where all the technology is hidden.

has anyone noticed in the first pic that the guy, angel, whatever in the first ufo is looking on his back, like he is being pursued by the other. maybe the painting is showing a battle in the sky?

Its not realy medieval but heres an interesting report from the year 1790:

Report by Police Inspector - Alencon, France, June 1790.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b1a280783fe9.jpg[/atsimg]

At 5 am on June 12, some peasants observed an enormous globe which seemed to be surrounded by flames… its great speed, and a whistling sound coming from it, puzzled them. The globe slowed down, made a rocking motion, and then dashed on to the top of a hill, uprooting the vegetation growing on the slope. The heat which emanated from the object was so great that the grass and shrubs caught alight shortly afterwards.”

“The peasants managed to isolate the fire which might have otherwise have spread over the whole area. By evening the globe was still warm, and there occurred an extraordinary – indeed not to say unbelievable – thing.”

“The eyewitnesses of this event were two mayors, a physician, and three other local authorities who confirm my report, not to mention the dozens of peasants who were present.”

“The sphere which was large enough to have contained a carriage, was intact after all this flying about. It had aroused such curiosity that people came running from all directions to see it. Then suddenly, a sort of door opened, and there came out a PERSON, JUST LIKE US, but dressed in a strange manner, IN CLOTHES ADHERING COMPLETELY TO THE BODY, and, seeing this crowd of people, the person murmured something incomprehensible and ran into the wood.”

“The peasants backed away instinctively, in fear, and this saved them for shortly afterwards, the sphere silently exploded, throwing pieces in all directions, which pieces were consumed until reduced to powder. Searches were undertaken to find the MYSTERIOUS MAN, but he seemed to have dissolved in thin air, for up till now not the tiniest trace of him has been discovered… ”

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

reply to post by internos


G'day Internos

Thank you for your extremely organised, informative post.

You really do continue to be a "class act" on this site.

Good onya mate!

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not