The god Paradox And The Choice Offered To You

reply to post by holywar

"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you"- James 4:8
sounds like a warm invitation to me

I think the Holy Spirit is some one that can tolerate delving into the depravity of the human soul.
He is called the Comforter.
We need to cozy up to him for a long long time before we can think we are so wonderful.

reply to post by heyo


5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destoyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 5-7

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. To back this up even further is what Jesus himself said at Luke 17:29:

"But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)

9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

the Galatians text does not support a hell doctrine, and the Psalm text you cited does not exist, maybe you got the verse wrong?

reply to post by heyo

Weird. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I think you're guessing cause the Timothy one is clear. I think you are doing the same things christians do...manipulate the verse to fit their viewpoint. That's sucha stretch, imo.

No, It is not straightforward. It might appear to you that way. If you want to debate this, we can do this with a new thread or one of threads already on this.

You are offered a choice: red apple or a green apple. Choosing red apple will give you a blissful life but you got to obey and turn off your mind and choosing a green apple will cause you to suffer for all eternity. Which one would you choose? Is it even a choice?

If a mugger point a gun at your head and tell you to give up your wallet. What will you do? Some Christians will claim that it is actually a choice.

Sorry I am "indisposed" at this moment. I'll continue to argue when I'm better.

Oh I am sorry. It appear that I have erased some of what I have typed. Like I said, I am not myself right now. Basically, what the OP is saying is that it is not a choice.

Ok I admit it. I am filled with something. I'll argue with you later when I am myself. Sorry.

reply to post by holywar



typo!
should read psalm 81:15

As for the galatians, eternal condemnation equals what?
I have already cited a verse where jesus himself describes that there is no coming back from, or going, to hell; once judgement day arrives.
I beleive it has not, but that's supplementary.

edit2: I like your thessalonians verse. It is very powerful. Also see Luke 16: 19-31 for added poignancy. (niv)

[edit on 31-5-2009 by heyo]

[edit on 31-5-2009 by heyo]

reply to post by Deaf Alien



It's a date!
lol
saw you on twitter btw.

With true friends, one can choose to side with them, disagree with them, remain neutral, everything and anything in between including choosing to agreeing or disagreeing with them in any particular actions and choices, while still remaining friends in certain situations.

False friends demand absolute choices, you are either with them or against them, you may not remain neutral and you cannot choose and pick what to agree with and what not to with anything in between.

It is a threat in reality, one only has two choices, to comply or to go against. It gives the illusion that one has freedom of choice or free will, especially when one choice has an extremely negative outcome being enforced by the bully.

Compare that with actual free will and freedom of choice within a certain perimeter, there are so many different paths/choices and mixes to take and with so many different outcomes and results, with and/or without other external factors and/or the sender, actually being involved directly/indirectly.

It sounds complex but only experience and time will tell if someone who wants a relationship with you to be that of a true friend or a false one.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by ixiy]

reply to post by ixiy


You are ignoring the implication of satan in this. If you believe in God, or are just supposing you do for simplicity's sake, you must also suppose that satan exists as well, and that he hates you.
People think they are the smartest thing out there, and it's funny to me. To not follow God is to follow satan, the goal of whom is your destruction.

It's like a parent demanding certain things from their children because they know what's best for them. The children don't understand why it's in their best interest, so they see it as plain old control, selfishness or whatever. I guess what i'm saying is, you not understanding why it's good for you is not a requisite of it being good for you.

reply to post by ixiy

It gives the illusion that one has freedom of choice or free will, especially when one choice has an extremely negative outcome being enforced by the bully.

If your salvation was based on free will, we would have a Bible that just says, "The choice is yours, so choose wisely."
Instead you have Jesus saying, "I have provided for you a fountain of the water of life, drink of it."

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by ixiy

 

It gives the illusion that one has freedom of choice or free will, especially when one choice has an extremely negative outcome being enforced by the bully.

If your salvation was based on free will, we would have a Bible that just says, "The choice is yours, so choose wisely."
Instead you have Jesus saying, "I have provided for you a fountain of the water of life, drink of it."

right, and yet the choice is ours to go to the fountain and drink... right?????

Or does Jesus take us by the hand and drags us there than sinks our heads in?

again.... you crack me up LOL!!!!

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by ixiy

 

You are ignoring the implication of satan in this. If you believe in God, or are just supposing you do for simplicity's sake, you must also suppose that satan exists as well, and that he hates you.
People think they are the smartest thing out there, and it's funny to me. To not follow God is to follow satan, the goal of whom is your destruction.

It's like a parent demanding certain things from their children because they know what's best for them. The children don't understand why it's in their best interest, so they see it as plain old control, selfishness or whatever. I guess what i'm saying is, you not understanding why it's good for you is not a requisite of it being good for you.

very well said!

people reason that choosing to serve God puts a restrictive leash around their necks. That's because their ignorant about how it actually frees you mentally and physically from the filth around us. Not to mention being ignorant about the awesome everlasting benefits we can reap in the future.

Micah 6:8 (New International Version)

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

But anyway, It's ok to choose not to serve God, you are still alive right?, so in the meantime, you've got HIS sun giving you warmth and life, he gives you HIS rain, he gives you HIS food, he gives you everything that is good.

So enjoy it while you can....

Matthew 5:45 (New International Version)

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

reply to post by heyo

I like your thessalonians verse. It is very powerful. Also see Luke 16: 19-31 for added poignancy. (niv)

You think Jesus' PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus supports a hell doctrine?

Well, sorry it does NOT, although that seems to be the popular consensus. That PARABLE actually explains a role change between the Jewish religious class, and the poor spiritually hungry class.

Watch THIS

reply to post by holywar

. . .does Jesus take us by the hand and drags us there than sinks our heads in?

Yes, in a manner of speaking.
If we hear those words, the Holy spirit convicts you to believe it.
If you fight the Spirit and dig your heals in and take a few swings at Him, then you do not drink, but being pulled along and drinking gives you nothing to boast about, it is not your "works" of choosing that made you drink. It was merely complying.
Is your compliance a "works"? No, because it is the work of the Holy Spirit and not something that originated from some imaginary "good" thing in your soul.
So, we should just be bad, because it does not make a difference, since there is nothing good about us anyway? No. We can grow to have changes in us that are more in compliance with what is good. That is not what saves us but is a result of being saved.
What if we live a long life and we become better than anyone else and have lots of "works" to show for us? That should count for something, right? Jesus says, "I know you not." Nothing about us, or the things we do, add one bit towards our salvation.
But if you work to do evil, there is a fire to be tossed into. One that will burn thoroughly, and will leave nothing remaining.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


You are not balanced on the whole faith and works issue. Faith and works go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Try loving your spouse but never showing it... I'd be curious to know how long he/she will go without complaining.

If I call you and tell you.... "hey jmdewey, I have a wonderful gift waiting for you here, come get it". And months go by, you have net yet picked up the gift, I'll take that as a sign that you don't appreciate my gift, or you simply don't want it. So I'll give it to someone else.

We do not earn salvation by works for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do. Without works to demonstrate our faith, our claim to follow Jesus would fall far short, for the Bible clearly states: "Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."—James 2:17.

Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)

12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

[edit on 31-5-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by holywar

You are not balanced on the whole faith and works issue.

You probably have never listened to Rush Limbaugh but he has this saying, "I do not need to be balanced, I am the balance". What he means is that the so-called main stream media is so slanted left, he can not be right enough to ever on his own create an imbalance between the right and left.
Last night I was switching between various internet radio shows I like to listen to. I went to the first and about one minute into it, they were talking about free will. I went to the second show and they were talking about free will. I went to the third station and they were talking about free will. I went to a forth channel and they, sure enough started talking about free will. I gave up and listened to some archived show that I knew was not talking about free will. They were talking about instinctual behavior. I listened to that for two hours and started feeling better.
In a world inundated with every imagined religion and philosophy saturating our minds with delusion, it is no time to be balanced. Why give into the thing that is leading the world off the cliff? I am not going to give it a single word. You can. Fine with me. If you say "works" then I will be quiet and not contradict you.
Works are great and I wish I could be like you and Miriam, and I wish I could be like badmedia too. I have this little story about the war I lived through in my church. (over in the "Law" thread) I see the enemy at the gates, coming back for more, to preach the foolishness of free will, which to me is the anti-gospel.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

If you say "works" then I will be quiet and not contradict you.

NO! I say, no I'm sorry... THE BIBLE SAYS faith AND works.

My argument is solidly based on what the Bible says, which you call the "anti-gospel". Your argument is based on your own personal philosophy. I can solidify my argument further that both faith AND works is needed (with the Bible of course), but I get the feeling I would be wasting my time, so I'll leave it at that.

reply to post by holywar

Your argument is based on your own personal philosophy.

I did not invent Protestantism. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. Maybe your religion missed the Reformation.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

I did not invent Protestantism. Read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. Maybe your religion missed the Reformation.

no thanks... I'll stick to reading the Bible.

Just because you don't have control over certain things, like being born or, inheriting sin, does not mean we cannot exercise free will and make choices. We are not robots, and we are not animals that go through life guided by instincts, God gave us a conscience brain. If we did not have free will, than God has no basis for holding us accountable for anything.

reply to post by holywar



"In hell, where he was in torment, he looked upand saw abraham far away..."
Luke 16:23

the parable continues describing how someone in hell cannot go back and tell their brothers they are in hell, because then they would listen. I think you're trying as hard as you can to avoid the realization, imho.

This is my relationship with God: reading the bible and mulling it over in my mind, waiting for an impulse of rejection or acceptance, and being a better person the more i do it. You're all like, "hey look what this dude said here", and i'm done with that...if i am wrong in my interpretation it will come in time, because i have no preferance either way.

reply to post by heyo


ok, I can understand people having a hard time with this parable. but if we were to take the parable literally, it would create all kinds of contradictions, so just be aware of that.

anyway, what do you do with the scriptures I've cited previously that clearly show the condition of the dead? How do you interpret them so that they support your belief.

The Bible is ONE big and harmonious puzzle with a very clear picture. You can't jam a piece of the puzzle where it does not belong.

reply to post by holywar

If we did not have free will, than God has no basis for holding us accountable for anything.

Free will was lost by our original pair of ancestors and was replaced by guilt, which is transfered to their descendants. (the alternative would have been, them instantly being killed and you never would have been born)
There was one fix available, and that was Jesus and we can avail ourselves of it, then it will be effective for our salvation.
No other provision for salvation is provided.

Just because you don't have control over certain things, like being born or, inheriting sin, does not mean we cannot exercise free will and make choices.

This is not something trivial, to be just brushed aside as a mere nuisance.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]