The god Paradox And The Choice Offered To You

Not a long post but seeking some discussion on this. I was told I am going to hell for not accepting jesus christ as my saviour. I was told god is not bad for sending me or any of the other millions of good people in the world to hell, that god does not want me to burn in hellfire for eternity. That yes I will be tortured for eternity but it is simply my own fault this will happen, not gods. That it is MY choice wether I end up in hell or not, not gods choice. That I have free will to avoid going to hell... but here is the catch.. all I have to avoid this eternity of torture is basically accept god as my master, and do his bidding... So where is the logic in this that some people believe there is actually a CHOICE? Go with god or be tortured for eternity, that is not choice or free will. Explain. And to those on ATS heading to hell, I look forward to hanging out with you there, even if we are shrieking in pain the whole time.

This is a good question.

.. all I have to avoid this eternity of torture is basically accept god as my master, and do his bidding...

This is almost word for word, what is in my little book from church that we get four times a year with our Sabbath School lessons.
This week's lesson is on "Heaven and Hell".
I took the lesson and analyzed it as if it was something posted on this forum. Of course good luck getting an answer from the writer, in this case.
I am printing your post ( with my response to the lesson) and I am going to ask my class if anyone has an answer for you.
I will be going in about 45 minutes and wish me luck, get back to you this afternoon, after church.

meanwhile, you can read my OBE/NDE to hell.www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by contemplator


You have stated a long list of things others have told you to accept and so forth.

Why would you let those people define this the topic of god for you?

As for your question. I am not a christian, but god gives you free will. He does not take your will and make you do things. He will give you understanding and wisdom so that you can make the correct choices, and by that you will be doing "his will". But it is not something that is forced, you will do it by choice based on your own understanding. Proverbs 8 for reference.

But not going to find that if you are going to allow other people to define the topic for you. Just because people claim things and do things in the name of something doesn't mean they actually represent that. Make the choice for yourself and seek the answers for yourself. Imagine if we allowed GWB to define "liberty and freedom" for us. When you allow them to define the topic for you, then you've already lost.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by contemplator

 

He will give you understanding and wisdom so that you can make the correct choices, and by that you will be doing "his will". But it is not something that is forced, you will do it by choice based on your own understanding.

the correct choice? according to what I have been told there is only 1 correct choice which is to accept god. So how is that a choice? Not forced? Ok so let's say I am not 'forced' to accept god.. that would be fine if I am left alone but instead I face eternal torture. It's like saying you have a choice to step in front of this bus and die, or be my slave.. up to you.. but please be certain of this.. you have the choice because I am a just dude.

reply to post by contemplator


Once again you have replied to me and told me what people tell you to accept. And once again I am going to ask why are you allowing other people to define these things for you?

Are you just looking to argue against the people who say those things, or are you actually looking for answer? Because you are pretty much arguing with yourself so far, presenting both sides of the argument. Your just painting "what they say" onto anyone who replies like this.

Spiritual laws work like natural laws... that simple.

Example:

you're standing on a roof top of a tall building, you have two choices... if you don't jump you'll live, if you jump you'll die.


Hungry???? if you eat you'll live, if you don't eat you'll die.


Just as there are physical laws, there are spiritual laws, it's up to you to accept that or not, but not accepting it does not abstain you from the consequences, just like not believing in the power of gravity won't stop you from plunging down to your death if you jump.

God made us, he knows what makes us happy and what's good for us.

BTW - The Bible teaches that there is a "hell", but it's not what most people say it is. Read THIS, you'll see what I mean.

edited to add this video

[edit on 30-5-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by contemplator
I read your post (including the title) in my Sabbath School class and what I got was a bunch of looks like, "See, the guy just proves our point." meaning they probably think you are making a conscious decision to go to hell.
Now the one guy who got your point is a smart dude from India and he took the sheet of paper, with your post and my rebuttal to the lesson, home to read. It had things in it like, no, everyone would like to be saved. And, no, we do not have free will. If you go to Bible Gateway and type in the search box "free will" the only thing that will come up that is close, is a verse in Revelation: "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
All that business of choosing, taking sides, serving your master, being loyal, and such are works, and salvation is only by free grace and we do not choose to be saved. Our will is in bondage and only someone higher and outside of us can choose for us, just like that higher person chose for us to be born.
We are here because God made Adam and Eve. They were created with free will and when they chose wrongly, that locked up the will of all their descendants. We are alive on this planet as a fulfillment of God's promise to them that at a certain future time, one will come from their blood-line who will unlock it. He did but we await another future when what has been accomplished in principle will be revealed in reality. The necessary event will be the redoing of the universe that has been corrupted to the core and God starts all over. We come along and are the beneficiaries of the promises.
How all this works out on the nuts and bolts level is something dealt with by the infinite mind who knows everything and at every level because he created everything. A lot of so-called Christians could be way off and they may be condemning themselves as they pronounce judgment on the world. Jesus never said we should be like that. Jesus said he would take care of it. You could listen to badmedia and figure they are followers of Paul and not Jesus. I am not to eager to jump on that bandwagon because he was deciding things on a brick and mortar level of what churches should be.


[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by contemplator

 

And, no, we do not have free will.

uh???

Joshua 24:15 (Amplified Bible)

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (Amplified Bible)

19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live

1 Kings 18:21 (Amplified Bible)

21 Elijah came near to all the people and said, How long will you halt and limp between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him! But if Baal, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I can keep quoting more, but I think you get the picture, WE DO HAVE FREE WILL. God gives us the ability to make a well informed, conscience choice, to either serve him or not. To either put faith in his son or not.

reply to post by holywar

Your choice does not guarantee you anything. Let's say the people chose to go along with Joshua. Did they not end up worshiping false gods, anyway?
If you choose to go ahead and right off the bat, serve false gods, God may honor your choice and allow you to go down.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by holywar

 

Your choice does not guarantee you anything. Let's say the people chose to go along with Joshua. Did they not end up worshiping false gods, anyway?
If you choose to go ahead and right off the bat, serve false gods, God may honor your choice and allow you to go down.

I don't think you get it. Why did they end up worshiping false gods anyway? They obviously CHOSE to go astray and worship false gods? That is why Jesus said:

"it is the one who has ENDURED TO THE END who will be saved" Mat.10:22

The Bible likens our choice to serve God to a race, with salvation being the prize at its end. And it urges: "Run in such a way that you may attain it."—1 Corinthians 9:24.

ok, how about this analogy because no one religious seems to understand what I am getting at:

An Alien race lands on Earth. They announce over the media that they come in peace, that they will not enslave us, that we will always have free will. They then state we have a choice to either serve them or be taken to their torture ship and tortured for 1,000's of years (they'll have technology to keep us alive that long). So is that a "choice"??? And if so, how so? I see no difference to this than the christian "choice" or serve or be tortured. I have read plenty of verse of the christian choice and plenty of verse of what hell is. The christian "choice" is serve god or be tortured for eternity.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by contemplator]

Originally posted by contemplator
ok, how about this analogy because no one religious seems to understand what I am getting at:

An Alien race lands on Earth. They announce over the media that they come in peace, that they will not enslave us, that we will always have free will. They then state we have a choice to either serve them or be taken to their torture ship and tortured for 1,000's of years (they'll have technology to keep us alive that long). So is that a "choice"??? And if so, how so? I see no difference to this than the christian "choice" or serve or be tortured. I have read plenty of verse of the christian choice and plenty of verse of what hell is. The christian "choice" is serve god or be tortured for eternity.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by contemplator]

The problem is, you don't seem to like the choices presented to you, but here they are again:

The ransom sacrifice of God’s Son, Jesus Christ, makes it possible for anyone who exercises faith in him to receive everlasting life. (John 3:16, 17; Acts 10:34, 35) “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life,” says the Bible. “He that disobeys the Son will not see life.” (John 3:36) You can choose life by learning about God, his Son, and His will from the pages of the Bible and by applying what you learn. The person acting in accord with true wisdom recorded in God’s Word is assured that “he will reside in security and be undisturbed from dread of calamity.”—Proverbs 1:20, 33.

Oh, and in case you didn't read the article or watch the video in my previous post, there is NO such thing as God punishing people with eternal torture in some fire place!!!! So at least find comfort in that little truth if you choose not to conform to God's will. You will simply cease to exist... after all, that is the opposite of life, isn't it?

Sorry if it's not the answer you're looking for.

reply to post by contemplator

They then state we have a choice to either serve them or be taken to their torture ship and tortured for 1,000's of years (they'll have technology to keep us alive that long).

Using Holywar's story, you find an interesting statement a few verses later:
"Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;"
Pretty strange thing to say. Aren't we supposed to serve God? Could it be that we have no clue about how we could, even if we wanted to?
This is kind of like the problem Jesus had with the pharisees. They dumbed down the Law to the point that they could claim to be keeping it. Then they would confront him by saying, "Don't you keep this law?"
Jesus had to say something similar to, "You fools, you have no idea of the spiritual nature of the Law, and how high a standard it sets."

[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

This is froma christian site, which seems in line with my research about the choice. I have yet to see anything that says if I cast aside jesus I will simply cease to exist. All my searches show bible statement and statements to the contrary. That I will burn in hellfire for eternity.

If you don't believe hell is real, then you cannot afford to be wrong. Why? Because the Bible says that on the day you die, you will come before God's judgement seat and God alone will decide if you will be welcomed to eternal life in heaven or damned to eternal hell.

Whatever else is going through your mind at this time, remember this, God loves you and wants to save you from hell. He paid a great price to save you. Are you a good person, good enough for heaven. Do the test. Find out today! You are being invited to consider the eternal destiny of your soul. What could be more important than that? We care about where you go after death. We believe hell is real and we don't want you to go to hell.

Please, take some time to think about these things. May God bless you as you do.

reply to post by contemplator


contemplator, you are smart for contemplating on this subject. I am trying to help you sift through the layers upon layers of satanic lies, promulgated by, well, Satan. Just because the belief of God punishing eternally in hell is widely accepted, it does not mean this teaching is found in the Bible.

To put simply... IT'S A FALSE "CHRISTIAN" TEACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I encourage you to please read the article and watch the video I posted earlier with a Bible at hand.

basic lesson in opposites:

up = down
in = out
short = tall
alive = DEAD
existence = nonexistence

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (New International Version)

19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [a] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

***rest assured... God is NOT sadistic***

reply to post by contemplator

I have yet to see anything that says if I cast aside jesus I will simply cease to exist.

Let me post the hell part from the lesson we covered this morning. This is from the official church publication that we use every week. I will underline the pertinent sections.

Not all people will be saved. Some will be eternally lost. Human beings have been created with a free will. Someone once expressed it like this: There are just two kinds of people—those who say, "Lord, Your will be done," and those to whom the Lord says, "I have to respect your choice; your will be done!" In the end, no one asked to be born. We're here only because we've been created without our consent. God offers us the hope of eternal life, if we choose it. If we don't, then we will go back to the nothingness out of which we came. It's in the end our own choice.
But hell also is a reality. The popular belief in a place where sinners will be tormented and burn for all eternity does not have biblical support. But neither has the popular idea that in the end all people are going to be saved. Those who reject the good news of salvation and refuse to be obedient to God will be judged and condemned, and will face a death from which there is no resurrection ever. Those who believe that all people will be saved argue that a God of love will not allow anyone to lose out on eternal bliss. They have a point to the extent that God is, indeed, love personified and wants to save all men and women. But tragically, not all people want to be saved. Christ could not have expressed it any clearer: " 'I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned,' " but He also adds that " 'those who have done evil will rise to be condemned' "

I mentioned earlier some of my problems with the free will and choice parts.


[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by holywar

you're standing on a roof top of a tall building, you have two choices... if you don't jump you'll live, if you jump you'll die. Hungry???? if you eat you'll live, if you don't eat you'll die.

That's not the same thing.

Let's say that you live in Nazi Germany. Hitler gave you a choice: serve me and you'll live or you will be tortured and be shot in the head Is that a choice? Sure, you'll argue that it's a choice. However, your will to live will persuade you to live.

God created hell. God tells us to make a choice. Do you want to suffer in hell for all eternity? I didn't think so. That is not a choice.

What I find amusing is the underestimation of the complexity of god if it exists. A supreme being would never, ever consider a life to be worthy unless it rejected it. Think about it... you are all powerful and create life.. that life then makes it's life revolve around worshipping you. What a drag.. now those few you created that denounce you and become true individuals.. now you are getting somewhere and ecstatic because you actually create unique life. It is highly probable that the bible and religion are put here by god to weed out those who worship god. And to those who become true individuals and denounce god, they are welcomed into his kingdom as unique beings.. his masterpieces so to speak.

reply to post by contemplator


That's a great question! thought about that a lot myself. Then i came to the realization that nothing in life is free, so neither is going to heaven. It kind of seems like you just want to get in without having to do anything? God IS your master, if you believe in him, and you know that if you know him, imo.
There are tnc rules on this site, and we must all follow them to remain. does that make the moderators my master? If you beleive in hell, then you believe in heaven, so the choice is only in whether or not you believe in any of it. Some people believe in God and worship satan, even.

you should look at this thread and know that God understands your total honesty in this question. If you don't give up, it will be answered for you, he promised. Seeking the truth is what he demands, and no spiritual person should be afraid of it. Good luck!

Ask and it shall be given to you.

I don't want to go to heaven whatsoever. The people I admire and respect the most are like me on their way to hell. I would rather be with them or be nowhere.