Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

reply to post by holywar

I worship Jehovah God EVERYDAY!

In your case, that might be right.
I did a google search and found something on the religious tolerance web site that, about JW's, says:
"They do not have a Sabbath; they regard all days as holy."

That may be better than thinking Sunday is somehow sacred.



[edit on 10-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by holywar


To follow all days vs. just one is better than following the wrong day. I'll agree with you on that part. You congregate with your church every day of the week? A specific day of the week is specified in the bible as a holy convocation (assembly) and this day is Saturday. The word "saturday" actually derives from the hebrew Sabbath. If you do your weekly church congregating on sunday, that is what JMDewey is talking about as being made by the anti-christ. If you follow each day equally and congregate equally on each day, you aren't wrong. You're simply doing more than needed but not being in the wrong. Part of God's sabbath commandment is to work for 6 days. "Six days you shall Labor". This means, no man should remain idle and lazy. God be with you.

reply to post by Locoman8
It is a scientifically provable fact that humans need to take one day off a week to stay healthy.
The Egyptians were mistreating people by only letting them rest one day out of ten.

To Holy War:
Everyone needs to have a day of rest. It is in God's law.
What day would you choose if you were forced at gun point to choose? I mean a day to do no work and the government said everyone needs to choose, "to save the Earth".
If your particular religion says every day you have to work and you are not allowed to ever rest, that is against God, just from natural law, if nothing else.



[edit on 10-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60



What day of the week would you choose to eat?


Matthew 4:4 (New International Version)

"Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"


Worship for me is a way of life, which includes my congregating days... whatever days they happen to be.

1 Corinthians 10:31 (New International Version)

So whether you eat or drink or WHATEVER YOU DO, do it all for the glory of God.

reply to post by holywar

What day of the week would you choose to eat?

Sorry to pick on you but you may have noticed that this forum seems to have all of a sudden died off or something. Maybe it is vacation time and people are busy.
You are still around so I am taking advantage of whoever is available.
Like I said, you are not really a good example of the point I am trying to make.
Some Christians actually call Sunday the Sabbath. This is one of the reasons why it is difficult to tell what day people were keeping in ancient history.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by Locoman8
Genesis 26:5
"because Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE and KEPT my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES, and MY LAWS."

Abraham followed God's commandments, statutes, and Laws. What does this mean? It means God's spiritual law was followed by the Patriarchs. You have to understand that before the Exodus, only an extremely small handfull of people were chosen by God as patriarchs and were dealt with directly by God. The Law was in existence. It has been since the beginning of creation. Remember the Sabbath was created at the Beginning of human history. Abraham followed these commands long before the old covenant with Israel.

ok, but do you have any scripture to back that claim up?

is there any scripture that says that abraham followed mosaic law or anything like it?

you failing to see that your interpretation of the words "my laws" is actually an assumption. "my laws" could mean any commandment that GOD gave to abraham. however there is not scripture that proves that abraham nor any other servant of god before the exodus observed the sabbath. not one.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't mind being picked on, as long as it's done in a "nice" way

Well, I just finished my "born again" videos, I'll be starting a new thread about this subject. Let's see how much interest it gets.

Originally posted by Locoman8
Just because it wasn't defined in the bible until Exodus as a 24 hour period of solemn rest, doesn't mean it wasn't in effect or followed by the Patriarchs. Genesis stated that Abraham followed the Laws, Commandments and Statutes of God. If this is the case and most of them weren't mentioned until Exodus, one can only put 2 and 2 together to realize God gave these commandments and laws to the patriarchs long before the nation of Israel.

and yet the scriptures do not agree.

2 chr 34:[14] And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.

neh 10:[29] They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

john 1:[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

why does it not say "the law given since creation" or "the law as given to abraham"

your going down this line of reasoning because you are desperate to establish that the sabbath was something more than a feature of the mosaic law. and your right it is, but it goes way beyond what day we worship.

consider this, if the creation days were not "literal" 24 hour days, then what seventh day was blessed?

Just like the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17-19 stated, "Not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Law until.... heaven and earth pass away."
The earth is still here. How much more proof is needed to stop from assuming that the JW reasoning around the law is so right? I guess you can't feed dog food to a cat.

hold on a second, until what?

matthew 5:[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

did or did not jesus fulfill the law?

if he did, then the earth still being here has nothing to do with it.

www.gotquestions.org...

btw, i dont like dog food.


[edit on 11-6-2009 by miriam0566]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Worshiping Sunday is idolatry, in the day itself and in worshiping the Beast who created it as a day to keep.

The Sabbath is how you identify who your God is. Keeping a different day means you are worshiping who made that day holy to himself, who happens to be in the case of Sunday, the antichrist.

so sunday we are suppose to NOT worship god? im confused by what your saying.

does this mean that im supposed to fill my sundays with occultic drunken orgies?

What laws were contained on the stone tablets moses had?

I thought it was the 10 commandments and those were the laws of god. The rest were the laws of men. When I look at the 10 commandments, I see things that make sense on why they are there, and I can understand them. When I look at the rest of the laws and what this thread is talking about, I see the laws of men being passed off as laws of god.

I also see Jesus being inline with the 10 commandments and keeping them. I do not see Jesus keeping the other laws, and the other laws aren't inline with the teachings of Jesus.

It seems to me the overall issue is what are the laws of god, and what are the laws of men. So I'll end with the first question - what was contained on the stone tablets moses came down with? Is my understanding on that wrong?

reply to post by miriam0566

so sunday we are suppose to NOT worship god?

God set the seventh day apart.
The monopolist, state backed "church" set Sunday apart and ordered the seventh day Sabbath keeping outlawed.
Following their direction to keep Sunday is accepting their authority to change the Law, and that is what Revelation calls the little horn of the Beast that speaks blasphemy against God.
They are never satisfied to have you keep Sunday and always force the non-observance of the true Sabbath.
If you go out door to door on Sunday, to me, that is a good thing and don't stop it.

Originally posted by badmedia
It seems to me the overall issue is what are the laws of god, and what are the laws of men. So I'll end with the first question - what was contained on the stone tablets moses came down with? Is my understanding on that wrong?

im not going to say you are right or wrong, but my guess is that most people in this thread simply disagree with you.

you've stated your beliefs time and again, but frankly i disagree. the book of exodus is very clear that moses went up the mountain several times and received "the law" , directly, from god.

i feel that you are assuming that anything other than the 10 commandments is simply "the law of men". but i have yet to see you bring anything solid to this discussion that would convince that what you are saying is truth, and that what moses was saying was lies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

so sunday we are suppose to NOT worship god?

Following their direction to keep Sunday is accepting their authority to change the Law, and that is what Revelation calls the little horn of the Beast that speaks blasphemy against God.
They are never satisfied to have you keep Sunday and always force the non-observance of the true Sabbath.
If you go out door to door on Sunday, to me, that is a good thing and don't stop it.

btw, the little horn is in daniel, not revelation and it has nothing to do with "sunday" worship.

but your reply doesnt fully answer my question. does this mean that we should NOT worship god on sunday>?

reply to post by miriam0566
The JW's seem to have that covered.
They say they have a "weekend" meeting which is usually on Sunday.
It might seem like evasiveness.
So they are off the hook because they do not specify a day.
I guess if you lived in a Muslim country, you could have your weekend meeting on Friday.
Another thing is that the weekend meetings are probably more a convenience thing, more than anything else. A time when anyone could walk in off the street, and listen to some teaching.
People like to make out how the Sabbath is a time for some sort of special form of worship, as if there was normal week day worship, and Sabbath worship. I do not think so. It is recognizing God as our creator by following His weekly cycle of working for six days and resting on the seventh. People in my church will take advantage of that day off to go to church. The difference in worship then becomes individual worship compared to group worship. That is not especially old testament thinking (where normally you would be safe to just stay home) but new testament thinking.(where you would not be forsaking the gathering of yourselves together)



[edit on 12-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566

matthew 5:[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Forgive me for skipping around the scripture. I didn't have my bible handy. It still says the same thing. Jesus fulfilled the law in the fact that He MAGNIFIED it and made it whole. Not that He done away with it. That above scriptue says until heaven and earth pass away, not one mark of the Law will change until everything the bible has to offer is fulfilled... not just the Jesus fulfillment. There is still a whole other portion of prophecy and an era of peace before all can and will be fulfilled.

You highlighted till all be fulfilled. but that is not exclusive to Jesus fulfillment of the Old Covenant ways. I told you before that the Laws were not strictly part of the Old Covenant, they were simply included with the Old Covenant. I'm not picking and choosing. When Genesis says that Abraham followed God's Laws, it's not something to discard. Moses, the giver of the laws from God, did write Genesis and Genesis is included with the portion of the Old Testament known as the "Torah", "Laws", or "Teachings." So, Moses giving the law from God is still acceptable in Genesis.

Originally posted by Locoman8
You highlighted till all be fulfilled. but that is not exclusive to Jesus fulfillment of the Old Covenant ways. I told you before that the Laws were not strictly part of the Old Covenant, they were simply included with the Old Covenant. I'm not picking and choosing. When Genesis says that Abraham followed God's Laws, it's not something to discard. Moses, the giver of the laws from God, did write Genesis and Genesis is included with the portion of the Old Testament known as the "Torah", "Laws", or "Teachings." So, Moses giving the law from God is still acceptable in Genesis.

im sorry but you are adding all this. i dont see anything of what your saying in the scriptures.

reply to post by miriam0566


2 chr 34:[14] And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.



The term "given by Moses" means "written by Moses" also. He is the author of the first five books of the Old Testament, known as the Law.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566

 

2 chr 34:[14] And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.



The term "given by Moses" means "written by Moses" also. He is the author of the first five books of the Old Testament, known as the Law.

YES, Moses did write the first 5 books... BUT, The Israelites came into a covenant relationship with Jehovah God at Mount Sinai in 1513 B.C.E.

Through Moses, they received the statutes of that covenant. (Exodus 24:3-8)

Originally posted by Locoman8
The term "given by Moses" means "written by Moses" also. He is the author of the first five books of the Old Testament, known as the Law.

yes, i posted this scripture earlier to state the same point, but you are suggesting more.

you are suggesting that the law wasnt given to moses and that infact it was in existence long before moses, and there simply isnt anything to back that up.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Locoman8
The term "given by Moses" means "written by Moses" also. He is the author of the first five books of the Old Testament, known as the Law.

yes, i posted this scripture earlier to state the same point, but you are suggesting more.

you are suggesting that the law wasnt given to moses and that infact it was in existence long before moses, and there simply isnt anything to back that up.

Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today. But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham's obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: "Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws" (NIV).

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor's Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: "The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham 'kept my requirements [mismarti], my commands [miswotay], my decrees [huqqotay] and my laws [wetorotay]' (v. 5).

"It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: 'Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [mismarto], his decrees [huqqotayw], his laws [mispatayw] and his commands [miswotayw]' . . .

"Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer's ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, 'Abraham obeyed me' (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of 'keeping the law,' the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law" (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel. However, the symbolic tabernacle or temple ceremonies and rituals and Israel's national administrative laws were not applicable in Abraham's day. Nor are they necessary for individual Christians today, because a physical temple is no longer the center of our worship as it was in the ancient nation of Israel (John 4:19-21; Hebrews 9:9-10).

Thus, Abraham knew a lot more about God's requirements for and definitions of righteous behavior than most religious teachers give him credit for today. It also means that the laws defining righteous attitudes and behavior that were given to Israel were known and practiced by servants of God long before the Sinai Covenant was ever established.

Did the Ten Commandments Exist Before Moses?
Many people assume that the Ten Commandments and the covenant God established with ancient Israel are identical—and that both were abolished by Jesus Christ's death. They believe that the Sinai Covenant and God's commandments came into existence together and went out of existence together.

But is such reasoning biblical? The facts show it is not. A close look at the Scriptures reveals that breaking the Ten Commandments was a sin before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, so arguments that they came into existence with that covenant and were terminated with it cannot be true. Let's notice the scriptural proof.

God's Word defines sin as "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, KJV) or "lawlessness" (New King James Version, NIV). Therefore, "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). This is what the Bible clearly says! So do we find transgressions of the Ten Commandments described as sinful before Mt. Sinai? Clearly we do.

For example, Genesis 13:13 tells us that "the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord." Since sin is violating God's law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.

Here is a clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and a "sin against God." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.

In Genesis 3:6 and 17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments. They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment.

In Genesis 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.

In Exodus 16:4, several days to several weeks before God established His covenant with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai, we find God giving them a test to see "whether they will walk in My law or not." His test involved whether they would rest on the seventh-day Sabbath as He commanded in the Fourth Commandment of that law—with which they were at least partly familiar. The seventh day had been hallowed—set aside as holy by God—from the time of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:1-3).

God's reaction to their disobedience is revealing. He exclaims, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" (Exodus 16: 28). God clearly speaks of both His "commandments and . . . laws" as already existing and in force well before He listed the Ten Commandments verbally at Mt. Sinai, as described four chapters later! Therefore, the Ten Commandments were only codified—written in stone as part of a formal covenant—at Mt. Sinai. Scripture clearly shows that they existed and were in force well before then.

This is stated explicitly in Genesis 26:5, where God tells Isaac that He blessed his father Abraham "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." This event took place centuries before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, centuries before Moses and two generations before Judah, head of the tribe that much later would become known as the Jews, was born!

In Leviticus 18:21 and 27, God calls the idolatrous practices of the people of the land of Canaan "abominations"—actions so filthy and degrading that God compared their expulsion to being "vomited out" of the land (verse 28). What was their sin? Among other things, idolatry (the worship of false gods) and human sacrifice, which violated the First, Second and Sixth Commandments.

The Bible shows that the Ten Commandments did not originate with Moses or in his time. Nor were they in any way limited only to the Jews. They were in effect and known long before Moses or a people known as the Jews existed. They are the foundation of God's laws that show us how to love God (defined by the first four Commandments) and how to love our fellow man (defined by the last six).

This is why, after Jesus Christ returns to establish His glorious Kingdom on earth, Isaiah 2:3 tells us that "many people shall come and say, ‘Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

At that time, all of mankind will at last be taught to live according to all of God's laws and commandments!

The laws and commandments were not written in stone until Moses, but were in full effect as shown above. Sin is defined as transgression of the LAW!!! Sin existed since the fall of the angel formerly known as Lucifer and now known as Satan. Through the personality of a serpent, Satan tempted Eve thus bringing sin to mankind. Just as stated above, Adam and Eve broke a number of commandments like stealing, coveting, and dishonoring your parents. Three out of ten commandments broken by not heeding God's words of not eating from one specific tree.