Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

What's with all the poetry? Ain't got no good points left, so you have to spice it up with pompous language?

yeah

[edit on 3-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Thanks for the promo!

No, he didnt break the laws, romans corrupted the religion with sun worship, changed the religious calnder and sabbath and everything else and created a mystery babylonian religion based on a false trinity of Nimord, they messed up the religion as much as I love christ and I am sure that he was a true prophet. Amen.

What is the fulfilment of the Law?
How about; if you break the Law, you will die?
So Jesus died to satisfy a law, though he never sinned.
Did he break the Law himself?
I would say, yes.
Was he wrong to do that?
Not in his opinion.
Jesus said that all the prophets were authoritative and their teachings were there to be followed, that is up untill the Greatest of the Prophets who had ever lived, who was John the Baptist, the person who said the axe must be taken to the root of Judaism and that it had to be totally done away with.
So Jesus broke the Law that technically was no longer of any affect on the people of Earth as a guide on how to live your life. But the old prophet Moses said that it was to last in perpetuity, and Isaiah said the law would be followed in the Kingdom Come.
Jesus broke the power of the outstanding Law and ended it. The power of it was, "Do this, or die." He didn't do it, and he died, though he was not guilty of any transgression of the Law in the heart of God, that is, the God and Father of Jesus. The old god of the Old prophet, Moses, had his power broken, and his power to destroy those he so chose, considering the fact that the old Law was seemingly made to be impossible to keep in a strict sort of way, and with no provision for willful sins, only those done inadvertently, by those who did not know what they were doing.
The Old God of This World is now the Satan of Jesus and will be ultimately put to death Himself, just as Jesus was so unrighteously and cruelly killed. Jesus was the righteous end of the reign of an unrighteous god, who he called, A Murderer from the Beginning.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
What is the fulfilment of the Law?

Love is the fulfillment of the law

How about; if you break the Law, you will die?

The wages of sin is death.

So Jesus died to satisfy a law, though he never sinned.

He died to fulfill the law (love) and fulfill the prophecies.

Did he break the Law himself?
I would say, yes.

What law did he break? Man's law, or YHWH's law?

Jesus said that all the prophets were authoritative and their teachings were there to be followed, that is up untill the Greatest of the Prophets who had ever lived,

Not up until . .

That is flat out false. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

who was John the Baptist, the person who said the axe must be taken to the root of Judaism and that it had to be totally done away with.

Wow. So out of context. He was calling for the Jews to repent of their sins, because those who were not following YHWH's law were not doing as YHWH commanded, and would be punished.

So Jesus broke the Law that technically was no longer of any affect on the people of Earth as a guide on how to live your life. But the old prophet Moses said that it was to last in perpetuity, and Isaiah said the law would be followed in the Kingdom Come.

Again, the scriptures contradict what you are saying.

considering the fact that the old Law was seemingly made to be impossible to keep in a strict sort of way,

YHWH's laws are quite easy to keep. It was the man made laws that made it impossible. Do some research into it.

and with no provision for willful sins, only those done inadvertently, by those who did not know what they were doing.

Again, wrong. Yeshua was not a provision for willful sin.

There never was, and never will be a provision for willful sin.

Heb 10:26 - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

The Old God of This World is now the Satan of Jesus and will be ultimately put to death Himself, just as Jesus was so unrighteously and cruelly killed.

Whaaaaat?

So who exactly was Yeshua worshiping, and who's right hand is He sitting by?

Jesus was the righteous end of the reign of an unrighteous god, who he called, A Murderer from the Beginning.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

So who exactly was Yeshua worshiping, and who's right hand is He sitting by?

That is a pretty good question.
Do you have the answer?
It nowhere in the New Testament identifies God with YHVH.
In fact, Paul went to Athens and preached that he followed the Unknown God.
The Jewish god was well known, so he was not talking about him.
Jesus said, "No man has seen the Father", which disqualifies YHVH of the Old Testament, who was seem many times.

The wages of sin is death.

The Law of the Old Testament punished those who broke it, with death. Does the fact that you break the Old Testament Law make you a sinner? If not, how do you equate the two things?

He died to fulfill the law (love) and fulfill the prophecies.

How does that work, and what prophecy?

What law did he break? Man's law, or YHWH's law?

That is a canard, for people who can't deal with the facts, and obfuscate, by making this false dichotomy. They were the same thing, in the land and time of Jesus and you can not prove otherwise. If anything, the Pharisees were humanists who liberalized the interpretation of the Law to make it easier on people.
Jesus broke the Law, plain and simple and made no bones about it. He made a point of making it obvious that he was disregarding the Law.

That is flat out false.. . .

You quote the scripture without giving a commentary, I am guessing, to leave it open to imply that there could be read into this, something no Christians accept. You have to face the reality that nobody follows the Old Testament laws, so Jesus meant something else, and I would suggest that it was what comes right after that, which is his spelling out a very strict interpretation of what Jesus believed was the original intent of the Law.

. . .because those who were not following YHWH's law. . .

Seriously, really, that was all he meant?

Again, the scriptures contradict what you are saying.

Tell me all about that, when you have time.

YHWH's laws are quite easy to keep.

What does that even mean?
I would not be making claims like I have, unless I had already been doing a lot of research, for a long time.

Yeshua was not a provision for willful sin.

Who said that?

So, who did he mean?

reply to post by miriam0566


- 1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands

- 1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new command to you, but an old commandment which you have had form the beginning

- Matthew 19:17...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments

- Luke 16:17 It is easier for Heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of the pen to drop out of the law

- Matthew 5:18 Verily I say to you, til Heaven and Earth pass away, not one jot or tittle may pass away from the law

- Isaiah 8:20 To the Law and to the testimony:If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them

- Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and Have the testimony of Jesus Christ

- Revelation 12:17 ...he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

reply to post by jmdewey60


Some of the Catholic Church quotes previously referred to:

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” — Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” — Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” — St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day - Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!”
“Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.” — James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” — Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” — Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.

reply to post by Locoman8


Yes, It is very frustrating that Satan has done such a powerful job in leading the vast majority of Christian denominations into deception about the Commandments and specifically the 4th commandment. This is why the remnant church exists to point the apostate churches of God out of Babylon, from following the Beast of the Sea power, the Papacy. This is going to be the end times final test for luke-warm Christians. Are the going to have enough faith in God that He is all they need when they are faced with not being able to buy and sell to gain food and clothing.

What group of people do you really think is going to be the remnant church if they didn't already keep all the commandments of God, as we find out in texts like Rev 14:12 and Rev 12:17

Yes Locoman8, we really have an uphill battle on our hands with this one ...when Satan comes counterfeiting the second coming of Christ these "Christians" are going to be under massive delusion and eat up what he says about him changing the 4th commandment to Sunday. That's why we have such verses as John 16:2-4 which says "...a time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you them."

How is it that we can say that we known God?
1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


If you understood the Sabbath than you would understand Christ, Paul and John.

Luke 6:5 5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Colossians 2:16-19 16 therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

Revelation 4:4-6 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Christ is the lord of the Sabbath rest that is promised to man at the end of this age. The true Sabbath is during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

What you are saying causes division. We are all part of the body of Christ and Christ lives in all of us. Anything that causes separation is not from God. Today’s church causes separation and division amongst those who Christ dwells in. This is because the bible is the remnant that could not be destroyed and we are the temple of Christ. He lives in all of us. He is the head of the church we are the body. You don’t need a building that says church on it to be closer to Jesus, he lives in you.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Some of the Catholic Church quotes previously referred to:

You are quoting or rather linking to a post I made in May 2009.
Let me explain that I am still to this day a Seventh Day Adventist though I have become rather ambivalent to a lot of the way they interpret prophecy, especially in the last year or two.
When I was writing at the time of that post, I was reciting the sort of things I was taught which is that the "little horn" in Daniel was the Papacy. Today, I would take it to mean Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who was this person who on fell the inheritance of the quarter of the Legacy of the Alexandrian empire, who decided it was his destiny to go to the South from Syria and to conquer Egypt to incorporate it into his own personal empire.
The Jews, (meaning the Persian importation of former Israelites who had been earlier deported, back into the Judean region after the fall of Babylon) had a nice cozy deal under the Persians and resented the Greeks who they held to be counter to God's wishes and especially Epiphanes, who they considered the little Satan of the big Satan.

Where I would have thought that the Catholic Church with its Pope was the anti-christ or something, I would now see as anti-christ exactly who is against Christ, meaning against Jesus, and would like to set themselves up as the true (in their own estimation) Messiah, and that would be the modern, zionist, so-called "state" illegally occupying Palestine and calling themselves after the Old Testament legendary kingdom of Israel, who have instead of waiting on God, decided to take it into their own hands to declare themselves righteous and their own Messiah.

The corollary being: rather than my former opinion that Rome is usurping the authority of Jesus by declaring Sunday the holy day of Christians being the great blasphemy against God, I am now of the opinion that it is this self appointed "state" sitting on the seven hills of Jerusalem who best fits the role of the true ant-christ.

So rather than Sunday being the sign of anti-christ, I would look for the newly revealed true anti-christ using the Mosaic Sabbath of the Old Testament as their sign of opposition to the liberty granted to mankind as a result of the work, death and resurrection of Jesus to redeem the world.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Yes Locoman8, we really have an uphill battle on our hands with this one ...

I miss Locoman and he was one of my friends and I would love it if he was here to respond to your post.

The post you are linking to was a reply by Locoman to miriam who is another missed person on this forum, but at the time she was acting as a sort of spokesperson for Jehovah's Witnesses' philosophy (though she was not one herself) which does not recognize a Sunday, or any other day, as being obligatory to "keep".
I can't speak for Locoman but I have to disagree with him today, where previously I would have sided with him on this idea that we need to keep the ten commandments. That idea (where the words, seventh day, comes from in the church's name, Seventh Day Adventist) is something that was instilled in me by my religious indoctrination from birth but not something I would support today.
To explain how I feel about commandments I would say there is this thing which exists as a reality whether it is recognized by human institutions or not, which is a fundamental Law and what I feel Jesus was teaching in his ministry on earth. One of these fundamental laws would be that it is inhumane to work someone without giving them a day off to rest. Science now verifies that a minimum requirement in order to live a long and healthy life is to have one day off out of seven. There are supposedly ten commandments in the Ten Commandments and it is one way to look at them that I was taught that there are four which has to do with our attitude towards God, and six that have to do with how we treat our fellow man. In my church, the Sabbath was considered to be one of the commandments that had to do with our obligation to God, where now my personal opinion is that it belongs to those that have to do with other people and it says it right in the commandment itself, which is how to treat your employees.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I would be interested to know which of the SDA interpretation of prophecy doesn't sit right with you. I have studied these prophecies extensively over the past few year and believe they are spot on. Even the Jesuits that are out to destroy protestantism believe Ellen White to be a prophet of God, they read her writings extensively, and acknowledge the book 'The Great Controversy' to be there most hated book because it is makes absolutely plain who the Sea Beast power is and what they have done throughout history.

The Vatican knows that the prophecies concerning the 'little horn power' from Daniel 7:8 (which is the same power as the 'Beast of the sea' in Revelation 13) arises out of the fourth beast Daniel 7:7 which represents the Roman Empire (Bible gives a brief description of this in Daniel 7:23-25).
23 "Thus he said:
' The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

I think the idea that Revelation refers back to events of 200-300AD (the tail end of the Roman empire before Roman Papal rule commenced from out of it in 538AD) is the attempt by the powerful Catholic church to present a view that would not identify itself as this persecuting false religion and power that the Bible clearly points. Of course they have a great incentive to spread this false interpretation (that has so many holes in it to the point of being ridiculous) to try and somehow get the idea of this Antichrist power out of the way as occurring before they rose to power. I don't know why this view would have any credence because it fulfills none of the prophecies that revelation points out must be fulfilled. How can people put their faith in the Word of God if history proves the Bible false? Please look through some of the links here...there are plenty of side info links attached to these links as well which should provide a fairly good overview. You will see that history confirms prophecy despite its symbolism. All the prophecies pointing out the persecuting beast power were obviously written before the Papacy came to power and each description is perfectly fulfilled in the Papacy.

www.godssabbathtruth.com... (Prophecy tables and time charts)
www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com... (The Real Anti-Christ)
www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com... (False Catholic Teachings)

www.cuttingedge.org... (TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH PROVEN TO BE A PRACTICE OF WHITE MAGIC WITCHCRAFT -- WORDS AND SYMBOLS TELL THE STORY!) <

This is an interesting link as well this lots of information to reference history. I do not agree with all that is said here but much of it has decent value nonetheless.
www.remnantofgod.org...

Some info on scripture pointing to a remnant people and the characteristics they will have (decent enough overviews)
www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com...
www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com...

I would also refer you to the Walter Veith video series called 'Total Onslaught'
amazingdiscoveries.tv...

This series is very extensive and should clear up most anyone's misunderstandings
I would suggest watching the 5th video "205 - The Man Behind The Mask " and then from the 10th one "210 - The Beast from the Bottomless Pit" onwards.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I would refer you to the Walter Veith video "217 - The Crime of All Ages" to see why the Sabbath is important to God amazingdiscoveries.tv...

You will find that it is about testing your allegiances, whether you wish to follow man's law to vicariously pay homage to the Pagan Sun God (Satan) by worshiping on Sunday (the Day of the Sun), or whether you choose to follow the '...Lord who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything that is in them' (Exodus 20:11)

In the only other instance in the Bible (other than in Revelation 13) when there is talk of all kinds of people being summoned to pay homage to an 'image' is in Daniel 3, the story of the golden statue. Why is this a valid test of ones allegiances to God? This should be fairly obvious right, King Nebuchadnezzar was instituting a law that tested the allegiance of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to God on whether they would obey God by keeping his commandments, specifically the 2nd commandment in this instance on bowing down/worship of an idol. In the only instance in the Bible which talks about God sending multiple plagues (other than in Revelation) targeting those who were not God's people, which was the commandment that Pharaoh was forcing the Israelite's to break that led God to punish the Egyptians with plagues? We find this story in Exodus chapter 5:5 (look up the hebrew word for 'rest' here). The study of this chapter shows that the Pharaoh was forcing the Israelite to break the Sabbath. The Bible makes sense when you look at stories that God has used to give us understanding where similar circumstances are described in the past (type) to the greater/more important event it will be like in the future (anti-type). (The story of Esther also provides a relevant typology here...see this vid for further explanations www.youtube.com...)

Here is also a very good vid too www.youtube.com...

reply to post by sacgamer25


Exodus 31:16 Whencefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

I would suggest looking up ALLthe statements the Catholic church says about the Sabbath
www.godssabbathtruth.com...

Here is a very prominent statement the Catholic Church says:
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” — St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

Do you not think the scriptures (the Word of God) should have sole authority???

"What you are saying causes division. We are all part of the body of Christ and Christ lives in all of us. Anything that causes separation is not from God."

You say that God doesn't want separation....God makes it abundantly clear many times that God's people would be separate from the world, that His people are to separate themselves from false teachings, that there will be a separating of the sheep from the goats, the wheat form the chaff ect ect...

bible.cc... - 2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

bible.cc... - Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues

Isaiah 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Babylonians! Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it. Send it out to the ends of the earth; say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob."

Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the LORD.

Jeremiah 50:8 "Flee out of Babylon; leave the land of the Babylonians, and be like the goats that lead the flock.

Jeremiah 51:6 "Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives! Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the LORD's vengeance; he will pay her what she deserves.

Jeremiah 51:9 "'We would have healed Babylon, but she cannot be healed; let us leave her and each go to his own land, for her judgment reaches to the skies, it rises as high as the clouds.'


Revelation doesn't represent the remnant as the Bible, it represent the remnant (God's last day people)as a people who continue to keep the commandments. The 'two witnesses' in Revelation represent the bible, ie. the Old and New Testament. (goggle 'zachariah two witnesses')

You say, "Christ is the lord of the Sabbath rest that is promised to man at the end of this age. The true Sabbath is during the 1000 year reign of Christ."

This seems to be a distorted statement. The sabbath was the first institution God created, it was around from the very beginning. Adam and Eve understood the Sabbath was valid then even before Moses received the 10 commandments on the mountain from God's hand. We learn before Moses got the 10 commandments the Sabbath was already in place in the account of manna that would not to be collected on the Sabbath during the Exodus.

You are somewhat correct about a 1000 year period having some meaning. The 1000 years does represent the Sabbath rest but this is a time period after the second coming of Jesus when we are called up into the sky and go with Him to his heavenly kingdom (where one of our tasks will be to go through the life records of people to see that God's judge is just for all those who are in Heaven and who didn't make it). Christ DOES NOT reign for 1000 year!!! His kingdom is forever, the the time period we are in the heavenly city is 1000 years....After this 1000 year period the heavenly city comes down to Earth, all the wicked are raise up to then receive their judgment where there will be destroyed by fire until there is nothing left of them. Also the whole earth will be cleansed by fire (except at the place where the heavenly city has come to lay to rest) to remove all marks on sin that are on it and then Jesus will recreate the new earth which will remain forever. This is what Revelation says.

Satan is getting ready to impersonate the second coming of Christ for him to 'deceive the very elect' where he will even have marks of nail holes, perform 'miracles', and say he changed Sabbath to Sunday. It is at this point when not keeping Saturday sabbath by Sunday becomes mark of the beast for those Christians who don't currently keep the Sabbath.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Your current understanding about this 1000 year period is setting you up right for Satan's false second coming deception. Jesus says that His kingdom is not of this world and remember that when Jesus comes again that we are called up into the sky with Him and His feet do not touch the ground. His feet touch the ground the 3rd time he comes to Earth which is after the 1000 year period we spend with Him in heaven. When Satan tries to impersonate Jesus' second coming know these things so that you will not be deceived and tell others of them so that they will not be deceived also.

Dictionary definition of Sunday -

'Webster's International Dictionary, 19th edition' - Sunday...so called because this day was anciently dedicated to the sun, or its worship

'Schaff-Herza Encyclopedia' - Sunday (Dies Solis of the Roman calendar, 'day of the sun,' being dedicated to the sun), the first day of the week

"Sabbath...A Hebrew word signifying rest...Sunday was the name given by the heathens to the first day of the week, because it was the day on which they worshiped the sun." John Eadie, D.D., LL.D. A Bible Cyclopedia, p. 561

In Daniel 7:25 talking about the little horn (sea beast) power..."And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws..."

Lets see what the Papacy has to write about itself:

"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate law, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." - Decretal De Translat. Espiscop. Cap.

"The Pope's will stand for reason. He can dispense above the law; and of wrong make right, by correcting and changing laws." - Pope Nicholas, Dist. 96, Qutoed in "Facts for the Times." pp55,56. 1893

'Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3, but the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to work every seven days.' - S. C Mosna, 'Storia della Domenica", 1969, pp. 366-367.

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all is called God,...

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.” — John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.

“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” — Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”.

"The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath Day. The Catholic Church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows bow in the reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church." - (Father Enright, American Sentinal June 1893)

'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." - (Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the Roman [Catholic] Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath." - John Gilmary Shea, in the "American Catholic Quarterly Review", January 1883.

Where does your allegiance lie, to God by obeying His commands or to the authority of man?

Further history..."She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday...and thus the Pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday sacred to Jesus" - (Cath. World, March 1894, p.809.)

reply to post by sacgamer25


Lets see what the official position is in the other Protestant Churches about this issue -

Episcopal Church:
- "Is there any command in the New Testament to change the day of weekly rest from Saturday to Sunday? None." (Manual of Christian Doctrine p.127)
- "We have made a change from the seventh day to the first day, form Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic and apostolic church of Christ." (Why we keep Sunday. p.28.)

Lutheran:
- "The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."The Augsburg Confession" in: Catholic Sabbath Manual, part 2, section 10

Presbyterian:
- "A change of the day to be observed from the last day of the week to the first. There is no record, no express command authorizing this change." (N.L. Rice, 'The Christian Sabbath', p.60)

Methodist:
- "Take the matter of Sunday...there is no passage telling Christians to keep that day, or to transfer the Jewish Sabbath to that day." (H. F. Rall, 'Christian Advocate', July 2, 1942.)

Congregationalist:
- "IT is quite clear that however rigidly or devoutly we spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath...There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday." (Dr R.W. Dale, 'The Ten Commandments', pp100,101.)

Anglican:
- "Many people think that Sunday is the Sabbath, but neither in the New Testament nor in the early church, is there anything to suggest that we have any right to transfer the observance of the seventh day of the week to the first. The Sabbath was and is Saturday and not Sunday..." (Rev. Lionel Beere, 'Church and People', Sept. 1st 1947

Baptist:
- "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday...There is no scripture evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh day to the first day of the week." (Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, (author of the Baptist Manual) New York Ministries Conference, Nov. 13, 1893.)

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Man Says:
"Sunday is founded not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is a distinctly Catholic institution." - Catholic Recrod Sept. 17, 1893

"The New Testament makes no explicit mention that the apostles changed the day of worship, but we know it from tradition." - The New Revised Baltimore Catechism (1949) p.139

note: the tradition is from Paganism

God says
- (Matthew 15:3,6,9) But He answered and said to them, why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?...And you void the commandment of God by your tradition...But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

- "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men...And he said to them. 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions.'" Mark 7:7,9

What did Jesus practise?
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went in to the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Luke 4:16

For even hereunto ye called: because Christi also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow his steps: 1 Peter 2:21

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:6

For I am the LORD, I change not;...Mal. 3:6

My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Psalm 89:4

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. Heb. 13:8

He that saith, I know him, and keepth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

If ye love me, keep my commandments John 14:15
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Finally....Addressing the verse you raised in Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefor judge in you meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (KJV)

Which of the commandment deal with eating, drinking, new moons ect? The verse is making reference to the ceremonial laws

just prior to this verse we read, "Blotting out the handwritting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross Col 2:14

Let no man therefore judge you...Col 2:16
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col 2:17

The feast of unleavened Bread, the Passover, the feast of the wave sheaf offering, the feast of first fruits ect ect all of which could fall on a Sabbath Day. The ceremonial sabbaths were linked to the sanctuary service (shadow service) and pointed forward to redemption (to Christ). God was saying that those special sabbaths that were on the same time as a ceremonial day that you are no longer to be judged on keeping those ceremonies, NOT to not keep the Sabbath!!!

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

I would also refer you to the Walter Veith video series called 'Total Onslaught'

A few months ago I was taking those videos and editing the audio from them to make CD's to be distributed so people could get the information without having to sit through watching the video's and especially for people who don't normally watch video's on the internet anyway. So I am familiar with the person. He is not an officially Church sponsored speaker for the Seventh Day Adventists but has a foundation which sponsors his lectures he does. I was given a video to look at by the same person I was making the CD's for (who was distributing the edited versions I made, to friends, who in turn, gave them to people they knew), which was produced by this same organization that puts out Veith's videos. The DVD was about the Vatican, and upon watching it I came to realize the Zionist, anti-christ nature of this organization (the one Veith works for). This realization is what launched me into reevaluating my former stance on Revelation prophecy interpretation.

As a comment, criticizing the Vatican is one thing but undermining the most fundamental supporting principal of its existence is attacking Christianity itself and diminishes the relevance of Christ and so becomes anti-Christ. You can say Jesus is a great man but unless you fully recognize him as Christ, the Messiah as the fulfillment of all the old prophecies, then you are still anti-christ, in relation to the general scope of being or not being a real Christian. I am right now speaking about this one organization which puts out these videos and sponsors these lecture series that denounce the Jesuits and the Vatican and the Popes and the claim for a universal church.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Of course they have a great incentive to spread this false interpretation (that has so many holes in it to the point of being ridiculous) to try and somehow get the idea of this Antichrist power out of the way as occurring before they rose to power.

First of all, you need to establish what the correct interpretation is, then you can present the counter, or alternate interpretation, then show how one is correct, and how in comparison, the alternative view is "full of holes".
For you to just make a sweeping proclamation of this being the case is not persuasive argumentation.
I understand that there are people who make the claim that the Vatican commissioned two different theologians to come up with the Preterist versions of prophetic interpretation, but I have yet to be shown that this is anything but wild accusations. Now there is a version of this sort of thought promoted by Jehovah's Witnesses which may to some people make it automatically suspect, including myself, and I have to basically create my own version, which is probably the only proper way to approach such things in the first place.