Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

reply to post by doctorex


Ummm, I agree with you, those points show exactly why we are NOT UNDER the Mosaic law.

Your refuting my points only strengthens them, which is good.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


So to live with a carnal mind makes it okay to break the laws of God? I'm sure you would keep the 9 commandments that aren't the sabbath. I'm understanding what DoctorX is saying. You must live a spiritual life for God. To be baptised in the Holy Spirit and let it lead you to the right path.

Originally posted by doctorex
Hi Locoman, I understand your dilemma, people would rather search for reasons not to obey God than to search for how to obey God. They justify not observing the Sabbath by saying things like God just wanted us to put aside one day (meaning any day, but choose sunday) when the word of God says quite different. He says over and over again, the 7th day. Paul pointed this out quite clearly too...

It's not a matter of reasons to obey or disobey god, it's about if god really asked for it as such in the first place.

God has never told me to do such a thing, nor is it the same as the other commandments in terms of understandings.

reply to post by badmedia


I leave you with a quote in the bible. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." You're heart says that God gave you direct understanding without the knowledge of His written word and now you are speaking on what your heart told you. Is it a bad thing? On the outside, it doesn't seem so but maybe you should rethink some of your reasoning. You, like most others on this thread speak of the Ten Commandments as "the 9 Commandments I'll follow and the 1 that I don't have to follow." Maybe you can't see the reasoning behind the Sabbath. Maybe it's a "test" commandment in which God tests the truely faithful by obeying His spiritual law to the fullest extent.

reply to post by Locoman8


No, I don't think the bible is god's word at all. And as far as I'm concerned the sabbath is of and by men. And unless there is good understanding that can be shown that says otherwise, or the father tells me it is so, then I'm not going to change my mind either.

God as Christians claim plain and simple doesn't meet my own standards, and I refuse to believe the father doesn't meet my standards. As such, it only leads me to believe that the religious people are wrong in their claims, rather than to think my standards are greater than the fathers.

When people make claims about the father, they are saying more than just the words they speak themselves. Many things get implied in the process.

Like the whole hell idea(I think we are in agreement on this one, so I'll use it as an example).

When someone says god is going to put someone in hell for eternity, that is implying many things about the father. It is to say he is worse than any parent in the world. While that is not the exact words to it, it is implied.

Because what parent punished their children for eternity? A loving parent does punish their child in order to teach them a lesson. But no loving parent would ever punish their child and just keep punishing them. Because at that point it's no longer about teaching a lesson, it's just plain out wanting to hurt them and is just plain out heartless.

So when someone says the father is going to put someone in hell, they are saying much more than just the hell part. They are saying that god is not loving, he is heartless and doesn't care about the individuals. Like god is some fatcat CEO who only cares about the bottom line. In my opinion, these people insult the father when they say such things, even though they didn't directly say the insults.

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

So when you tell me that the specific day and such is that important, then you are also telling me that god is about "Because I say so", rather than understanding. And that I can not accept. It is not the father I know, and it is nothing like how the father has given me. I have asked for understanding on it, and the only understanding I have been given is what I shared with you earlier about it being important to take a bit of time which is good for the person/soul.

The father has never been "Because I said so" towards me. Exactly the opposite. And it would certainly be nice and I wish at times I could just get a "because I said so, this is right: accept it" kind of answer. But I don't, and I am made to understand that the reason why I don't is because if I accept, then I won't understand and I am to understand.

See, everything I know about the father has been him giving me understanding, and to not just accept what men(you) say, and to reject their asserted authority. That it is the understandings expressed that are important, not the individual variables of the expression.

So there is really no choice for me here at all. I can't choose 1 way or another on this topic, I can only look to my understanding. Maybe for some reason the father doesn't want me to have the understanding of a specific day of sabbath. I don't know. If I come to such understandings, then I will certainly change to that.

Acceptance just isn't the way of the father I know.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
Take where Jesus says "Church". People make that out to be a place of worship or physical building and so forth. Not at all. The true church is built within a person, and is built of understanding and wisdom - that which is rich in the eyes of god. It is present on both heaven and earth because it is within. Not a physical building at all, and the physical building becomes something to be accepted, is put in replace of the true church and blinds people to the understanding. The whole establishment of the church and organized religion is a lie, that is not what Jesus was talking about with Peter at all. All in the bible gaining understanding and wisdom is likened to building a house. Jesus is a "carpenter", builds houses/churches out of understanding. And he likens the church to being built on a rock(wisdom, check matthew 7).

Not that people meeting in a building to discuss things is bad. But that isn't what happens in church. Preacher(authority) tells people what to accept. When 2 or more people are discussing Jesus, he will be among them. Discussion = asking questions, debating things and so forth. That is what brings about understanding. No preacher should exist by any title or function. Right now, we are building our churches, we are discussing things. No building needed. Some people inform me their churches are not this way, so can't say all are like this. But this is how things are manipulated and not put into the proper contexts and so forth.

The first thing I was ever told when I first went to church, was “The people are the church, not the building”. Which I totally accepted (rightly) for some reason, and then I was like “well, what are we doing in here then? lol”. It’s kind of combination of the two, in that (which you stated above) Jesus said “where two or more, are gathered in my name, there I will be also” or words to that effect. So people meeting up in a church or elsewhere is also helping to build up of the inner church within a person by discussion, asking questions etc etc…This can of course be done even when someone is by themselves and communicating with God.

Originally posted by badmedia
As I was telling Loco, Neo plays the role of Jesus in that movie. But I don't come to that conclusion because of the movie itself, but rather that I am a programmer and I once had a goal of creating actual intelligence. While doing this, I was posed with very very deep and philosophical questions. Of course, when I asked I recieved, I seek and I found. And so that is basically how I am able to express the understanding I was given in response. I certainly don't mean like a physical computer somewhere that we are all in.

What I found is that "what is spirit is spirit, and what is flesh is flesh". Creation itself is based on laws/order. This means it has logic behind it, and so it is like a program in that way. Spirit/consciousness/god is that which is able to create, understand and reason logic, and is seperate. It can not be programmed, it is impossible that it is of the universe. As it is that which creates logic, it is beyond science and logic itself and can not really be explained. It is that within you that gives you the ability to do the same thing.

I work in web development so I know how to use certain programs like php, Mysql and java etc but as for creating actual intelligence, I wouldn’t know where to start I read some stuff a while ago about programmers trying to get machine’s to play chess with a positional understanding like a human’s. They could get machine’s to play the opening part of the game like human’s but that was only because they had a huge database library from which to draw upon, so essentially they didn’t really understand the opening phase of the game.

Programmers interviewed grandmasters to try and get an understanding of what “positional play” actually is, but they were unable to explain completely, how it works. There are so many things humans can do, which we just take for granted and some of the things we can do, are not fully understood. If we cannot work out how we actually are able to do a given task, then it then becomes almost impossible, to convey that logic across to a machine, to allow it to perform the task. It’s weird, because in a way, by trying to build artificial intelligence we are in effect, trying to back engineer ourselves.

Originally posted by badmedia
I've only had the vision myself, no obe's. But dreams I often learn during. Like when I am struggling with a question or problem, I often find the answers come to me in my dreams. I have entire ideas for things come to me in my dreams.

Wow that ‘s pretty amazing stuff with your dreams giving you answers to your questions. When I first started to pray with the Christians, I would get these pictures in my head, whilst not actually thinking about anything, I mean my mind was empty. I was never completely sure as to what the visions really meant and sometimes the answers people gave me were a bit vague, even though people meant well. To begin with I just shrugged it off and didn’t really believe it was happening or real at all. Then I had a period where I stopped going to the church altogether but then I started to get these waking visions, which had a similar feel to the ones I got when I was praying. I never had any questions answered but I did have one waking dream like vision, where I heard or felt this question being asked of me. The question was either “what is man” or “what are you”, this really made me think deeply about so many things but mainly about God.

- JC

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by doctorex

 

Ummm, I agree with you, those points show exactly why we are NOT UNDER the Mosaic law.

Your refuting my points only strengthens them, which is good.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Then you didn't even understand what I said. The Law is still there, and we are still to observe it, just to a GREATER degree, not a lesser degree. For instance, do you understand what Jesus meant when he said...

MATTHEW 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

He was saying they were right to do what they were doing in observing the law, but they left out the spiritual side. Remember that Jesus said....

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

....and Jesus said they were right in observing the law. Anyway, I guess you see it or you don't, and only God can show it, not men, so I'm not going to continue.

Originally posted by Joecroft
The first thing I was ever told when I first went to church, was “The people are the church, not the building”. Which I totally accepted (rightly) for some reason, and then I was like “well, what are we doing in here then? lol”. It’s kind of combination of the two, in that (which you stated above) Jesus said “where two or more, are gathered in my name, there I will be also” or words to that effect. So people meeting up in a church or elsewhere is also helping to build up of the inner church within a person by discussion, asking questions etc etc…This can of course be done even when someone is by themselves and communicating with God.

Well it's good people get that about the church, but I can only say that it is 1 thing to state it, but another to follow it. I just don't know why they would call it a church at all honestly. But the real deal about it is when people create authorities of themselves and so forth. Which is more the system of the "church" like the RCC and others. That is what is really wrong, because there is only 1 true teacher, and they aren't it.

In all honesty, all understanding comes from the father. All of it. It is only because the father is within that one is able to understand. What is really being done by discussion of Jesus and debating is questions are being asked. And when the questions are asked within, then the father will give the understanding behind that. Ask and you will receive and so forth. As the father and the kingdom of heaven are within, then to knock and open those doors is done by asking questions and so forth. That brings about understanding which leads the path.

I work in web development so I know how to use certain programs like php, Mysql and java etc but as for creating actual intelligence, I wouldn’t know where to start

I read some stuff a while ago about programmers trying to get machine’s to play chess with a positional understanding like a human’s. They could get machine’s to play the opening part of the game like human’s but that was only because they had a huge database library from which to draw upon, so essentially they didn’t really understand the opening phase of the game.

Programmers interviewed grandmasters to try and get an understanding of what “positional play” actually is, but they were unable to explain completely, how it works. There are so many things humans can do, which we just take for granted and some of the things we can do, are not fully understood. If we cannot work out how we actually are able to do a given task, then it then becomes almost impossible, to convey that logic across to a machine, to allow it to perform the task. It’s weird, because in a way, by trying to build artificial intelligence we are in effect, trying to back engineer ourselves.

That is the reason it is artificial. It has no understanding, it doesn't know what it means to "be", it doesn't observe or have choice/freewill. It is just a bunch of patterns repeating. Freewill is the first requirement for intelligence, because the moment freewill is lost, you have by default limited the intelligence possible(although part of freewill is to do this in order to have an experience, poker is an example).

So, what is spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh. Your spirit is that bit of the father within that gives you freewill and so forth, and you are hated for it by those who seek power. Because you can not be controlled like a rocket or things which give power(easily). So they try to make choice an illusion through manipulation to get people to be on an action/reaction level.

When I worked on AI myself, I did exactly what you say. I reversed engineered myself, which is what lead me to my understanding. All the functions of the body and such I came up with reasons/needs for and would have to reflect that in the program. Like memory for example, short term memory is RAM, and long term memory is a hard drive.

You mentioned you know mysql, so the brain actually has indexes like those databases do. I can show you this, how your brain searches and uses indexes.

"Dog".

When I say that word, immediately a single image of a dog pops into your head. This is the same as an index would return "dog" with a count. Now, if you want you can easily browse that index by looking for other images of dogs. And that is the same thing as a mysql search query.

Much more. I seriously mapped out tons of things like this. Even philosophical questions like trying to determine what is true or not. But in the end, 1 thing was always lacking. The consciousness/spirit/soul. I came to realize that eventually I would have to put consciousness inside it before it would go beyond the stage of artifical intelligence to real intelligence. And then it hit me - that is already done. Haven't worked on it since. Then I started to understand what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit.

Wow that ‘s pretty amazing stuff with your dreams giving you answers to your questions. When I first started to pray with the Christians, I would get these pictures in my head, whilst not actually thinking about anything, I mean my mind was empty. I was never completely sure as to what the visions really meant and sometimes the answers people gave me were a bit vague, even though people meant well. To begin with I just shrugged it off and didn’t really believe it was happening or real at all. Then I had a period where I stopped going to the church altogether but then I started to get these waking visions, which had a similar feel to the ones I got when I was praying. I never had any questions answered but I did have one waking dream like vision, where I heard or felt this question being asked of me. The question was either “what is man” or “what are you”, this really made me think deeply about so many things but mainly about God.

- JC

Those are great questions, and ones I ask atheists all the time. They will never give me a real answer. Know thyself. IMO, one must first come to realize what they are(son) before they can even start to grasp and understand what the father is. So it's interesting to me that question would be what you are asked, because that is exactly the kind of questions you need to be asking. Other men can't answer it for you, even if they know. It's a personal journey within, and that was a door being pointed out to you.

reply to post by badmedia


"Because God said so" is not a bad thing. God will give us understanding of things we have yet to know. What do you think it was with Adam and Eve being told not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? They didn't know the reason behind why God didn't want them to eat of it, except that they would "surely die". So why the Sabbath? Well, for one, God told me to follow it. Next, it's a weekly memorial to remember that God created everything through Jesus and rested on the 7th day. God created light on the first day. The first day is also the day the pagans would worship the sun god. So, recognizing the creation process and using the 7th day for rest also gives us this understanding that the number 7 is a number of "completion" in God's overall plan. There were 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowl plagues mentioned in Revelation. The 7th seal is the final seal. The 7th trumpet harbors the Kingdom of God, and the 7th plague is the final downfall of mankind's rule on earth. It completes things. 7 days in a week. Every 7th year was a sabbath year. 7 sets of 7 years was the jubilee year, the year of renewal and starting over. 7 years in the Tribulation (final 3 1/2 years being the Great Tribulation). 7 holy day feasts throughout the year all considered High Day or yearly Sabbaths. 7 days in the feast of unleavened bread. 7 days in the feast of tabernacles. That is my understanding on the Sabbath. Honor the completion of the week by God and honor God for what He ordered us to follow. There's my understanding and God gave it to me. He also gave me a guide that tells me what He said to everyone in the past. It's called the Holy Bible. He didn't just give the 4th commandment to Moses, He gave it to man. "Man wasn't made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man."

reply to post by Locoman8


But all those "7's" are man made things. They are traditions of men. 7 day week is because of men and so forth. As we already talked about, a day for the father is nothing like a day for the earth. And so the genesis story and it's 7 days aren't really "days" at all, but a rough general outline of creation that just included 7 general steps. As far as earth days, it could have been broken down into many many more steps.

Plus, the bible, and especially the christian religion, is filled with paganism.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
That is the reason it is artificial. It has no understanding, it doesn't know what it means to "be", it doesn't observe or have choice/freewill. It is just a bunch of patterns repeating. Freewill is the first requirement for intelligence, because the moment freewill is lost, you have by default limited the intelligence possible(although part of freewill is to do this in order to have an experience, poker is an example).
So, what is spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh. Your spirit is that bit of the father within that gives you freewill and so forth, and you are hated for it by those who seek power. Because you can not be controlled like a rocket or things which give power(easily). So they try to make choice an illusion through manipulation to get people to be on an action/reaction level.

When I worked on AI myself, I did exactly what you say. I reversed engineered myself, which is what lead me to my understanding. All the functions of the body and such I came up with reasons/needs for and would have to reflect that in the program. Like memory for example, short term memory is RAM, and long term memory is a hard drive.

The concept of freewill has been debated quite a lot, just what exactly is freewill? Is it having an infinite amount of options available, having 100 thousand million options or is it just having a number of options more than 1? Defining intelligence is also quite complex. Take a dog for example, there is not a machine in the world, that can replicate everything that a dog can do. From a freewill perspective, a dog clearly has fewer options, than a human being, but it still has freewill to some extent and most people would say dogs are intelligent. Even insects like ants are pretty awesome machines, so to speak, but they do have a certain type of intelligence and freewill. A question I have thought about for a while now is do dogs/animals have a consciousness or soul or are they just biological machines created by God but without a soul/consciousness installed?

One critical component of intelligence is memory, without which, life wouldn’t be able to progress and learn or even bring up a topic to discuss it. Memory on it own though is pretty useless and is a similar parallel to computers just having a big database of information without the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to use it effectively. What other components make up intelligence, is the big question, but without memory, life would be pretty much useless and with memory only, life just wouldn’t be going anywhere fast.

Originally posted by badmedia
Much more. I seriously mapped out tons of things like this. Even philosophical questions like trying to determine what is true or not. But in the end, 1 thing was always lacking. The consciousness/spirit/soul. I came to realize that eventually I would have to put consciousness inside it before it would go beyond the stage of artifical intelligence to real intelligence. And then it hit me - that is already done. Haven't worked on it since. Then I started to understand what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit.

What other philosophical questions, did you look at?


JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Part of free will is the ability to give it away. We do this all the time in order to have an experience. This is usually done subconsciously, and is the "trick" of the serpent in the garden. In other words, you have to actually make that choice, and people make choices without fulling realizing what exactly they are doing. The serpent showed 1 thing, but they were subconsciously agreeing to much more.

I use a poker game to show this effect. There is nothing that physically stops us from knowing what all the cards are, and how the hand will play out. But when we agree to play the game, we agree to certain rules. And when we do that, then we have given away our free will. We don't do it consciously, and don't think of it in those terms, we just want to play the game, we just want to have the experience. And if everyone could see all the cards, then the game and experience could not exist. Nobody would bet or call when they knew they would lose. So, a requirement to play the game of poker is to give away your free will.

And same thing is true of life. The father is all knowing, but the son is not. The son is like that father, but is in a limited perspective which is required for this experience. This is why their is a "point of no return", or a point people speak of that they could not go beyond. Because it takes away the limited perspective(loss of free will) needed in order to have this experience. As "you" are this limited perspective, "you" will cease to exist. Nobody can "view" all of the father and still exist. It results in the loss of the limited perspective.

As for other philosophical questions. Hmmm, alot of them come from working on other parts.

But like being able to "feel" things. How do you program that logically? I mean, I can program the triggers and have something say "I feel my arm being touched". But what is that actual feeling itself that is triggered? All the philosophical questions really ended up being broken down into the 2 groups. What is experienced(triggers and such, which I can program), and what is it that is actually experiencing it(that which is beyond logic).

Like what you "see". Light travels, hits your eyes. That is refracted through the eye lens and put on the back of the retina. That is then transformed into electrical signals, which then travel to the back of the brain. Those electrical signals are then converted back into the images "you" see. That is all logical and well. But to whom/what are those images presented too?

There are intelligence ranges, flicker effects(waves/frequencies) and all sorts of other things. But those are topics in themselves, and require a bit of base understanding. But ultimately I basically showed myself the difference between flesh and spirit.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
Part of free will is the ability to give it away. We do this all the time in order to have an experience. This is usually done subconsciously, and is the "trick" of the serpent in the garden. In other words, you have to actually make that choice, and people make choices without fulling realizing what exactly they are doing. The serpent showed 1 thing, but they were subconsciously agreeing to much more.

I use a poker game to show this effect. There is nothing that physically stops us from knowing what all the cards are, and how the hand will play out. But when we agree to play the game, we agree to certain rules. And when we do that, then we have given away our free will. We don't do it consciously, and don't think of it in those terms, we just want to play the game, we just want to have the experience. And if everyone could see all the cards, then the game and experience could not exist. Nobody would bet or call when they knew they would lose. So, a requirement to play the game of poker is to give away your free will.

And same thing is true of life. The father is all knowing, but the son is not. The son is like that father, but is in a limited perspective which is required for this experience. This is why their is a "point of no return", or a point people speak of that they could not go beyond. Because it takes away the limited perspective(loss of free will) needed in order to have this experience. As "you" are this limited perspective, "you" will cease to exist. Nobody can "view" all of the father and still exist. It results in the loss of the limited perspective.

Do you think that in the spirit realm, all known possibilities are already known and we choose to forget them, in order to have this, life, experience? I think this might be partly true but I’m not sure if all infinite possibilities are known in the spirit world, because within infinity, we would never be able to know everything until time has eventually come to an end, but that doesn’t seem possible in an infinite universe. So we may be giving up a lot of knowledge/awareness that cannot be seen, in order to have this experience but I’m not entirely sure if we are giving up knowing every possibility that exists.

When you say, “give up our free will” it’s interesting that you use the phrase “give up”, because in a way by giving up the option, we are actually opening up another possibility to occur! Or at least be made known. So the way I see this, is that we are exercising our free will, in order not to do something or know/remember something, which is kind of mind blowing. This gets me thinking about music because it’s the gaps between the sounds, which makes the tune. We sort of “give up” the complete sound of a note, in order to experience the complete tune or melody.

Originally posted by badmedia

As for other philosophical questions. Hmmm, alot of them come from working on other parts.

But like being able to "feel" things. How do you program that logically? I mean, I can program the triggers and have something say "I feel my arm being touched". But what is that actual feeling itself that is triggered? All the philosophical questions really ended up being broken down into the 2 groups. What is experienced(triggers and such, which I can program), and what is it that is actually experiencing it(that which is beyond logic).

Like what you "see". Light travels, hits your eyes. That is refracted through the eye lens and put on the back of the retina. That is then transformed into electrical signals, which then travel to the back of the brain. Those electrical signals are then converted back into the images "you" see. That is all logical and well. But to whom/what are those images presented too?

There are intelligence ranges, flicker effects(waves/frequencies) and all sorts of other things. But those are topics in themselves, and require a bit of base understanding. But ultimately I basically showed myself the difference between flesh and spirit.

Hmm I can see the dilemma…computers feeling things or making decisions based on the images they are processing just isn’t going to happen easily. It’s seem to me that getting a computer to make decisions is the hard part because the programmer is really the one who is deciding this for the machine by giving it options.

Random numbers just give the machine the appearance of intelligence but as you probably know random numbers are not random, in that they have a pattern to them, so a machines options would actually be forced, rather than natural. For some reason I pictured you working on a machine that could pass the Turin test and not a machine that was actually robotic.



-JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
Do you think that in the spirit realm, all known possibilities are already known and we choose to forget them, in order to have this, life, experience? I think this might be partly true but I’m not sure if all infinite possibilities are known in the spirit world, because within infinity, we would never be able to know everything until time has eventually come to an end, but that doesn’t seem possible in an infinite universe. So we may be giving up a lot of knowledge/awareness that cannot be seen, in order to have this experience but I’m not entirely sure if we are giving up knowing every possibility that exists.

Not just the spirit realm, but all of reality itself. This is why I am so big about walking the path of Jesus. Because it is an actual path that leads to places. A literal path. All possibilities exist now for you, it only appears to be a linear reality because from our perspective that is what it is. But every time you make a choice, you are changing "dimensions". If all possiblities do not exist, then free will can not exist. We would be limited to a linear directors cut.

I posted in depth about this subject in the following 2 posts. This is what the father showed me and gave me understanding of. "Jesus" was never mentioned, but I found the bible and Jesus after and I was amazed that Jesus does exactly what I was shown. This is also how he was able to cure the blind, walk on water and so forth(assuming they are true, i know some instances of curing the blind is talking about giving someone understanding, but other cases seem to be quite literal).

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

When you say, “give up our free will” it’s interesting that you use the phrase “give up”, because in a way by giving up the option, we are actually opening up another possibility to occur! Or at least be made known. So the way I see this, is that we are exercising our free will, in order not to do something or know/remember something, which is kind of mind blowing. This gets me thinking about music because it’s the gaps between the sounds, which makes the tune. We sort of “give up” the complete sound of a note, in order to experience the complete tune or melody.

There are many ways to express the same understandings. But have you ever heard the riddle: "Can god create a rock he can not lift?" in regards to him being all powerful. And the answer is "YES!". Only if he couldn't, would he not be all powerful. So the question of course is - how?

The answer, it's just a choice. By creating a "rock he can't lift", he is simply creating a rule/law. A choice. As long as he has the rule in place, it is not liftable. If he wants to lift the rock, then it's simply a choice to not have the rule, in which case he is still all powerful and nothing but a choice to no longer keep the rule that was made. When he creates the rock that he can not life, he is choosing to give away his free will.

Hmm I can see the dilemma…computers feeling things or making decisions based on the images they are processing just isn’t going to happen easily. It’s seem to me that getting a computer to make decisions is the hard part because the programmer is really the one who is deciding this for the machine by giving it options.

Random numbers just give the machine the appearance of intelligence but as you probably know random numbers are not random, in that they have a pattern to them, so a machines options would actually be forced, rather than natural. For some reason I pictured you working on a machine that could pass the Turin test and not a machine that was actually robotic.

Exactly, it will simply make the choices I tell it too. Programming and AI is great stuff. It allows us to put our logic into a machine that will carry out that logic each and every time.

I can simulate a choice with pseudo-random numbers. But as you mention, there is no such thing as a random number. They are generated and can be predicted(random.org). They suit our purposes in programming and we can give the illusion of choice by saying rand(100), if < 10 option 1, if >10 and < 50, option 2, if > 50, option 3. We can give that illusion, but of course we know that it is just that, only an illusion.

I never wrote any code for the AI, I never got that far. I never made it past the design/logic stage, which is where these questions and such came from. I can create AI given enough time and it is possible to pass that turin test(which I btw think is bogus). All it has to do is follow the logic given to it. But it is incapable of understanding and creating it's own logic, and that is the true test IMO.

I even had the idea, well I will just have the code put out random bits of information and then try it, and eventually it will create/spit out logic. And then I realize, well I still need consciousness/real intelligence in order to recognize what it did was logical and intelligent, because the program itself has no clue.

It is because we have the father within that we are able to understand logic, create logic and so forth. This is why we are hated by this "world". All the robots and AI we can ever create is of and only of this world. It has no free will, or choice as it has no soul. It's like a rocket, it is based on action and reaction and so we can control it and it gives us power. The entire "Game" on this planet is trying to get people dumbed down and so entrained in duality(limited choices) that they are able to introduce the actions that bring about the reactions they want. This is generally done with fear, such as with 9/11(action) leads to fear of another attack, and the people react as wanted(supporting 2 wars and increase "security").

If that rocket had choice, then it is no longer controllable and doesn't give those who seek power the power they want. Who knows where it ends up.

What does it mean to "sell your soul"? You give away you free will in exchange for material value. You become a puppet.

So this is the deception. And you have to look at fruits/actions to see it. People are decieved into breaking commandments and so forth and believe they are "justified" in their actions. As there is an action path to walk, this leads people away from the narrow path onto the broad path of destruction, which you can see in actions.

This is the war on god. To turn people into slaves of action and reaction, without understanding and reason, without question just do it. As the guy in the matrix states - choice then becomes an illusion between those with power and those without. But only by people understanding who/what they really are will they be free. The truth will set you free. Jesus says not to fear these people and so forth, because fear is the status quo method. People supported the wars after 9/11 based on their fears, and their desires to "save themselves", and in doing so they choose a path of death and destruction. I was one of them, and it wasn't until Iraq that I started to "wake up", because I knew he didn't have WMD as we sold him what he had and so forth, and they expired years ago.

I'm not a man of faith, but I do have faith that one day, the truth will be known(revelation) to all, and one day the truth(Jesus) will be the authority of this world. Until then, we live in bondage.

Btw, I love this discussion but it's not really on topic for this thread. If you want to continue it beyond this point, I think the other thread loco started about general chit chat would be a good place for it. It's a great topic and really gets down to the core issues, so I would love to continue.

No Jesju never removed anything from you burden, but he didn't add anything either. And that's enough for you. Tosks.

reply to post by badmedia



Firstly, thanks for discussing this here. This is the first time I have discussed this topic with anyone!
I would love to continue this discussion badmedia and your right, this is not the right place to discuss it. I will read through the thread you posted here first, before continuing on another thread.

reply to post by Locoman8



Once again sorry Locoman8 for going of topic..
I’m meeting some Christians friends tomorrow and will probably try and get some of their thoughts about the Sabbath…so I should have some fresh ideas and perspectives in my next post.





- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


No problem. Many times on these threads, they go slightly off-topic but this kind of thing is what produces many new topics and threads. Speaking of which, thank you for whoever has contributed to my thread on General Christian Discussion. This thread is not off-limits for anything about theology and faith. I've moved on to talk about christian movies. Check it out if you get a chance.

How many of you have fulfilled the law of Moses, and sold everything you ever owned and given all your money to the poor? How manµ?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


This can't happen without the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of you. It's a spiritual law and you have to have the Holy Spirit to follow it to it's fullest extent.

Whether or not the Spirit is present, according to Jesju, you still have to follow the Law, sell all your belongings and be more righteous than the Pharicees to get eternal life and entry to the Kingdom of God:

Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'" 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Not strange then, that most "Christians" are infact "Paulians", since his way is much simpler. According to Saul Paulus, you basically don't need to do anythng other than being a sweettalker who can withstand a snakebite, and say "Jesus is the Lord who came in flesh and blood and died for our sins".