Freemasons - Another child fingerprinting scam/fair

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Free means there is no charge.

Thanks for explaining that

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
Doesn't get more transparent than actually watching the whole process. It's done with the parents watching right over the shoulders of us and their children... I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

How it is handeled at the front does not tell me anything of how it is handeled behind the screens.
Digital data can be manipulated in all sorts of ways that it is not verifiable for me to check.
I am not saying it is, just saying it can be done.
For me these presented arguments are enough for me not to support this program untill it is run by a non secret organisation that is can check the whole structure off.

This is mostly the way it is done with medical collected data, it is mostly doen by a verifiable public organisation that can be held accountable for any errors.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
Like i said, if it bothers you that much then dont participate in the program. If you want to see how it works for yourself though, just find one and watch.

I never said that it bothers me !?
I just think this whole CHIP thing is not transparent enough.
And watching some people putting in some data in to a computer tells me not much or close to nothing.

reply to post by jaamaan


There is no screens dude. No tricky computer tricks. No grand scheme.

If you can't be convinced of it here (which i understand... it's ATS and I'm an evil doer or something) then go see one. I'm not sure what else in terms of transperency you could want.... And i don't think theres a need for me to explain it any more. I'm starting to hear the sounds of a dead horse being beaten.

Besides if such DNA information is available immediately and on-the-spot, how is it that police/crime forensics cannot or do not do that in shorter than many man-hours when an actual crime takes place and they need that information immed.? Are / is the possibility of future kidnapping crimes more important than actual crimes going on at the moment?

So this DNA is sent off somewhere to be analysed???? or done right there, within minutes? What else is done within those minutes? Do the parents get to see that too?? If it is sent off, how can the parents be witness to the proceedure? If it is done before their eyes, and placed into equipment to sterily draw it out, what happens in the disposal of that needle?

By what program is the blood analysed? Is there a lab in back that does this rush-order? What do they do with the leftover blood? Give it to the parents too? Do they flush it? what?

*funny comment here: do they drink it??? LOL

The fingerprints, are they on paper or on a computer pad like the DMV and other places have?? Does that screen keep a copy of the prints? If not, how would we know what information is stored or removed (supposedly deleted).

How is any blood taken and analysed without a Mason or another having access to it (or part of it?). What about the DNA read-out? where does that come from? a Printer? Does the printer/scanner keep a copy?

too many questions that cannot be answered.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


Heh, seeing as I have no small accomplishments of my own, your barbs are weak.

Personally, I don't care about your opinion about me, I am not a Mason, nore have any interest in joining Masonry.

I just never understood the mentality of people who who go out of their way to be insulting towards someone they've never met, but feel they have the moral high ground.

As for Jaamaan, if you are suspicious, check the systems when the next organization is held. If any data is saved, the stored system files would change automatically.
As for a Secret society, I've found that you can find pretty much everything about Masonry by viewing the books about it.
Yes, you can't walk in unless you're a member.

reply to post by suzque66


A swab is taken of the inside of the kids mouth. That is then sealed in a package to preserve it. There is no DNA work done, unless the kid goes missing.

Every time i've seen the functions, they use paper to take the prints.

"I just never understood the mentality of people who who go out of their way to be insulting towards someone they've never met, but feel they have the moral high ground."

It insults my intelligence to think that I would allow myself to witness news about these events and not say something about it.

It insults my judgement and gut-instinct that the whole scenerio is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Morally, I say teach children to be kinder, gentler citizens (as I said over and over) not give fear and bandaid solutions to parents who are kept busy by worries of what their next meal will be and if they will have a roof tomorrow.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by jaamaan

 

There is no screens dude. No tricky computer tricks. No grand scheme.

If you can't be convinced of it here (which i understand... it's ATS and I'm an evil doer or something) then go see one. I'm not sure what else in terms of transperency you could want.... And i don't think theres a need for me to explain it any more. I'm starting to hear the sounds of a dead horse being beaten.

So let me get this clear.
If i do not trust this CHIP thing on the basis that it is done by a secret organisation than all of a sudden i bleieve all masons on ATS are evil doers ?
If that is the level you like to discuss this on than i agree with you on one thing, "i don't think theres a need for me to explain it any more".

So if i like to make sure what will be done with my childrens DNA if i join the program i am beating a dead horse?

I believe i presented valid arguments here in this discussion and i will repeat one here.

If the collecting of DNA and personal identification data is done by a secret organisation than how can one be sure what is done with the collected data?

"A swab is taken of the inside of the kids mouth. That is then sealed in a package to preserve it. There is no DNA work done, unless the kid goes missing. "

Ah so it is not bloodwork it is a cheek swab that the Masons deliver to whom?? So it must be in some safety area for how long??

How do we know they do not test it within days? How is this reasoning that 'ALL INFORMATION IS GIVEN TO THE PARENTS'? as you guys so forcefully claim. Do the parents take the swab home?

Was that swab swabbed on another swab?

if this is the case, if the police were looking for a child, they could just as easily find a piece of used bubblegum at the kid's home when they become missing (or worse). Why keep it in advance? Till when? the child is 18 or leaves home? Who is responsible for storing the swab viles? What company? Is it stored in the lodge freezer, with the sammich meat??



[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


It is stored by the parents. My folks stored it in a safe.
The swab is given to the parents, in a bag, that is prepared in front of the parent.

reply to post by jaamaan


Yep. You said it. If the information provided isn't enough, and your un willing to investigate it in person... There is nothing more that i can say that will covince you other wise. Best of luck.

reply to post by suzque66

Ah, but see, you started the thread. The burden of proof therefore lies with you.

Originally posted by jaamaan
As i said before, there is no way to verify this.
It is a performed by a secret organisation and i believe the handeling of medical and personal idetification information should be handeled by a more transparent organisation.

Looking at a computer screen does not give me any real information about the structure of how this is organised.

1) Yes, there is. Like I've stated before, go to an event.
2) We are not a secret society. How much transparent can we be since we are doing it in the open, in public?
3) The structure is not secret. I've talked about the structure of Freemasonry many times.

reply to post by suzque66

Ah, see, you're mistaking privacy for secrecy. And what exclusion?

reply to post by suzque66

Freemasons just take a swab. It hasn't been analyzed yet. It is kept with the parents with the rest of the information until, God forbid, the kidnapping occurs the parents can give the swab to the police to be analyzed. DNA swabs are not done with a syringe.

The fingerprints are electronically taken. The screen displays all 10-spaces and it is also shows when it has been erased. What part of ALL information don't people get? What purpose do we have to lie?

Originally posted by suzque66
too many questions that cannot be answered.

It's not too may questions that can't be answered. It's that you are not getting the answers you want that vilify the Freemasons.

Originally posted by suzque66
It insults my intelligence to think that I would allow myself to witness news about these events and not say something about it.

It insults my judgement and gut-instinct that the whole scenerio is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yet, you've shown no reason that there was any wrongdoing. You just assume that it was wrong because it's associated with the Freemasons.

Originally posted by suzque66
Do the parents take the swab home?

Was that swab swabbed on another swab?

You really don't understand the whole swab process. You take the swab, swab the cheek, stick it in a storage piece, and give it to the parents right there. All of this is done in front of the parent.

You willing to argue with me guys because I just plain REFUSE to believe the mason agenda balogna,

but this other guy (as a parent) asks legit questions and you become impatient and tell him--get it or don't, we don't care. Beleive us or not.

You claim to be authorized to defend the Masons yet, a concerned citizen/parent is asking questions and you scoff him off like he is the bad guy.

Aren't you the one who said 'go to a booth and check it out for yourself'? Why would he waste his time doing that when it is obvious of the kind of rude responses he would get for being too nosey...online.

"The fingerprints are electronically taken. The screen displays all 10-spaces and it is also shows when it has been erased. What part of ALL information don't people get? What purpose do we have to lie? "

One mason says it is done with paper, another says it is a computerized screen lol

it is all fishy

and yes I understand swabs just fine. Does the swab-taker remove his/her gloves after each child for disposal? Are those gloves destroyed and/or given to the parents after they hold their child's mouth open during the swab?

Doesn't matter what I ask, the fact that there are too many questions and all kinds of different answers that should make any parent suspicious enough to avoid such proceedure.




[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66


Rude responses eh?

Thats pretty funny.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Yes you guys are rude, impatient and curt with the other guy, while you take your time to respond to me as if I am the one all important person to argue with around here.

My children have grown, so you would never impress me with your Mason agenda, he perhaps has younger children who question these services.

****Suz has gone to bed FOR SURE this time lol.



[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

reply to post by suzque66

You claim to be authorized to defend the Masons yet, a concerned citizen/parent is asking questions and you scoff him off like he is the bad guy.

Er... no one's said that. In fact, most masons go out of their way to point out that Masonry means something different to each person.

One mason says it is done with paper, another says it is a computerized screen lol

it is all fishy

I'm not a Mason, little lady.
When I was a kid, my school had one of these kits done for each of the students. They used paper.
Later on, at the local fair, there was another group, and my mom had another kit made.
A year or so back, my sister and I took my nieces to the fair, and she ha a kit made for them, and they used paper.

Like I've said:
"Every time i've seen the functions, they use paper to take the prints. "

I didn't say every time, or most of the time. I've told Jaamaan how he could check the computers, and W3RLied2 has recommended that he visit the booths to check his suspicions, since nothing anyone can say will convince him.

No i meant thats pretty funny becasue you've been an absolutely, not rude what soever, joy to talk with. pfft

Whatever your problem is with masonry is just that. Your problem. I can't count how many times people have patiently tried to explain things here. So if my telling another member to re-read the information becasue RE-POSTING it is lame comes off as rude my apologies. It's only been said about 35 times in this thread and several other times in the previous threads that Runespyder posted links too as well, on the first page.

I feel bad for the other members who thought this might be an inelligent conversation among grown ups where information about a subject could be exchanged in a setting that isn't hostile. Boy was i wrong. Sorry for coming off a little irritated but this whole thing just makes me laugh.

You start a thread, and you follow up by crucifying every one who came forward with an informative response to you. Theres a word for that, Trolling.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Yep. You said it. If the information provided isn't enough, and your un willing to investigate it in person... There is nothing more that i can say that will covince you other wise. Best of luck.

I am not the one making claims that this whole CHIP thing is OK.
And i am not claiming it is not OK.

I am just claiming that i cannot verify much about it.
Same as with election systems, looking in the voting booth does not tell me much about the organisation behind it.
You can call it beating dead horses and stuff, it just shows you do not want to debate valid arguments.

And i did not say i am unwilling to inestigate it in person, that is just you putting words in my mouth.

reply to post by jaamaan


What would be a valid argument?
I personally haven't seen the computers used at these things, but if they are like most, they'll have one or two things on them, either they are a purpose built machine, in which either they'll have no obvious connectors and no way to check them, or you'll have a normal computer with the spread sheet type program that accepts the information.
In that case, you can check the changes in increase of file size to see if any of the information is kept.

Rune:


earlier in the thread you said:

"The process is done in front of the parent.

The parent receives all of the information.

Nothing is kept by the guys doing it, in any of the organizations.
And the structure is fairly open."

[edit on 25-5-2009 by RuneSpider]

how can someone who argues for pages that this system is safe and Masons are 'all that and a bag of tater chips' now claim that:

I personally haven't seen the computers used at these things, but if they are like most, they'll have one or two things on them, either they are a purpose built machine, in which either they'll have no obvious connectors and no way to check them, or you'll have a normal computer with the spread sheet type program that accepts the information.

Not to mention aren't you the one who said you trust this system?

None, absolutely NONE of you guys have actually opened the computer or as I asked...'are they wireless??'

Why do you insist on defending people when you know little about their system of information gathering? You read books on Masons, as you claim? Obviously you read the wrong ones that have only peachy-keen beach party ideals as thought process to them.

Rune you also said: "I just never understood the mentality of people who who go out of their way to be insulting towards someone they've never met, but feel they have the moral high ground." *you did imply myself, didn't you??

and yet you went out of YOUR way to DEFEND people you claim you have never met or associate with NOR know anything about their computer systems. ...didn't you?

This is what the discussion is about, WHAT the gatherers would do with the freebee information they gather and now you are admitting you know 'little to nothing' about their practices.

ok, now that is two of you that have lied and been caught being disinformants for the Freemason Societies.

Honestly, even telemarketting services trade, sell and share information easily. Legally!!

Masons are merely patsies for a bigger scheme. Sad you are so blind. I don't even have access to the inside and I see clearer.

You are dismissed. You have lost all and any credibility with me also.


[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

[edit on 25-5-2009 by suzque66]

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by jaamaan

 

What would be a valid argument?
I personally haven't seen the computers used at these things, but if they are like most, they'll have one or two things on them, either they are a purpose built machine, in which either they'll have no obvious connectors and no way to check them, or you'll have a normal computer with the spread sheet type program that accepts the information.
In that case, you can check the changes in increase of file size to see if any of the information is kept.

My valid argument.
There does not seem to be a way for me to verify that none of the data collected is not stored or used for other purposes than stated.
Could you tell me how i could verify this without just taking your word for it.

Where i live there a usualy all kind of safe guards build into a system that has to deal with medical and personal identification information.
For example an indipendant body that checks these things.

Is there any kind of system used for this CHIP program and if so could you point it out.
If not, do you not think it is a valid argument for people not to trust this system because what they claim can not be verified ?

This argument is mostly seen as valid in the western world where i live and again systems that deal with this medical and personal identification information have transparent and verifiable safe guards build into them.
Does this system of CHIP got any of these safeguards other than that i can look on some computerscreens and word of mouth that it is all ok.