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Barak: We'll evacuate illegal outposts peacefully or with force
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Defense Minister Ehud Barak met with leaders of the Yesha Council of Jewish Communities in Judea and Samaria on Wednesday, to discuss halting construction in West Bank settlements.
The defense minister stressed that all illegal outposts must be evacuated, saying, "If this isn't done through negotiations, it will be carried out with swift and tough enforcement."
JPost
I find this an interesting development, particularly after the Prime Minister's meeting with Obama earlier this week in which settlements were raised
as a divisive issue.
Also a reminder to those that vilify the Israeli authorities for the destruction of Palestinian homes, Jewish homes that are built without permits are also frequently bulldozed as well.
This also leads me to wonder how, if autonomy is given to Palestinians living in Judea and Samara (AKA West Bank), the current Israeli residents will be handled. I'm sure they won't be happy about it - I wouldn't be. Will we see a repeat of the Gaza disengagement, when Israelis were forced from their homes at gunpoint?
This serves as a further reminders that "Two-State Solution" is a much-used phrase and sounds simple enough, but not enough thought is given to the human costs involved in evacuating large numbers of people with jobs, lives and homes.
Also a reminder to those that vilify the Israeli authorities for the destruction of Palestinian homes, Jewish homes that are built without permits are also frequently bulldozed as well.
This also leads me to wonder how, if autonomy is given to Palestinians living in Judea and Samara (AKA West Bank), the current Israeli residents will be handled. I'm sure they won't be happy about it - I wouldn't be. Will we see a repeat of the Gaza disengagement, when Israelis were forced from their homes at gunpoint?
This serves as a further reminders that "Two-State Solution" is a much-used phrase and sounds simple enough, but not enough thought is given to the human costs involved in evacuating large numbers of people with jobs, lives and homes.
Interesting thoughts, Matt.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say some things most won't want to hear.
I think since the economic catastrophe and the new US administration there has been a subtle shift.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is now more of an annoyance to the US than anything. It has little immediate strategic or resource priority. The Saudis make it a point of contention, spearheading the Arab commitment to somehow destroy the unwanted intruder in their midst who they consider a tribal and Koranic enemy. And there's the humiliation of 3 unsuccessful wars and the Israeli perfidy of making a viable country out of a strip of desert in a few decades.
Israel is the deflection from their shortcomings and an excuse to ratchet up pressure on the US when necessary. The US is tired of it with much larger issues to contend with.
The Iran subsidized Gaza conflict has had more fallout than most realize. An autonomous sub-state for Palestinians was created. It devolved into a militarized zone for a contusing and unrelenting war on Israel. It required a major campaign just to quell the incessant unprovoked shellings by a government that only understands a state of siege. This ominously hints at what a new larger West Bank Palestinian state would be like if created.
And now the theatre of action has irrevocably shifted eastward. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and there are unresolved issues in Iraq. The Palestinian conflict, I believe, is becoming more of a sideshow as the main attraction is so much more vital to the world. The nuclear concerns with faltering Pakistan are an immediate priority.
My guess is that after all the lip-service being given to a reconciliation with the Palestinians and discussions of a newly created state, in their heart of hearts Israeli politicians and the people themselves realize there will never be co-operation and peace emerging no matter what arrangement is made.
As most of the world already hates Israel for their perceived injustices, they have little to lose by quietly giving up on serious attempts to deliver anything more.
The US and I’d say Europe needs Israel functional and secure more than they need a new state for the perpetually dissatisfied Palestinians.
Very long term I think Western leaders are all seeing that the endless conflicts and animosities in the region will never abate. The essentially tribalistic mindset of the leadership prevents this.
How this will change? There are many scripts.
But my feeling is there will be less emphasis on the creation of an autonomous Palestinian state. As far as the West is concerned, and I think quietly some Muslim states in the world, it weighs in as a zero sum equation.
Mike
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say some things most won't want to hear.
I think since the economic catastrophe and the new US administration there has been a subtle shift.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is now more of an annoyance to the US than anything. It has little immediate strategic or resource priority. The Saudis make it a point of contention, spearheading the Arab commitment to somehow destroy the unwanted intruder in their midst who they consider a tribal and Koranic enemy. And there's the humiliation of 3 unsuccessful wars and the Israeli perfidy of making a viable country out of a strip of desert in a few decades.
Israel is the deflection from their shortcomings and an excuse to ratchet up pressure on the US when necessary. The US is tired of it with much larger issues to contend with.
The Iran subsidized Gaza conflict has had more fallout than most realize. An autonomous sub-state for Palestinians was created. It devolved into a militarized zone for a contusing and unrelenting war on Israel. It required a major campaign just to quell the incessant unprovoked shellings by a government that only understands a state of siege. This ominously hints at what a new larger West Bank Palestinian state would be like if created.
And now the theatre of action has irrevocably shifted eastward. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and there are unresolved issues in Iraq. The Palestinian conflict, I believe, is becoming more of a sideshow as the main attraction is so much more vital to the world. The nuclear concerns with faltering Pakistan are an immediate priority.
My guess is that after all the lip-service being given to a reconciliation with the Palestinians and discussions of a newly created state, in their heart of hearts Israeli politicians and the people themselves realize there will never be co-operation and peace emerging no matter what arrangement is made.
As most of the world already hates Israel for their perceived injustices, they have little to lose by quietly giving up on serious attempts to deliver anything more.
The US and I’d say Europe needs Israel functional and secure more than they need a new state for the perpetually dissatisfied Palestinians.
Very long term I think Western leaders are all seeing that the endless conflicts and animosities in the region will never abate. The essentially tribalistic mindset of the leadership prevents this.
How this will change? There are many scripts.
But my feeling is there will be less emphasis on the creation of an autonomous Palestinian state. As far as the West is concerned, and I think quietly some Muslim states in the world, it weighs in as a zero sum equation.
Mike
reply to post by mattpryor
those isreali's that have to be relocated should of done the right thing in the first place.
it's their own fault if they built their lives on false premises.
those isreali's that have to be relocated should of done the right thing in the first place.
it's their own fault if they built their lives on false premises.
spearheading
and he was.
[edit on 25/5/09 by spearhead]
[edit on 25/5/09 by spearhead]
reply to post by mmiichael
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Western politicians will make a show of supporting a so-called two state solution, and will publicly pressure Israel to make land concessions in the hope that this will appease the anti-Israeli lobby in the US and in Europe. However Obama knows that the Israeli government can't stop people from building homes any more than he can - enforcing a restriction on settlement growth (which is a euphemism for bulldozing peoples' houses) costs money, and at the moment there isn't much of that around, and people have to live somewhere. The best they can hope for is an end to subsidized housing in disputed areas.
The problem is, settlement removal is and always has been a final status issue - meaning that it is something that must be negotiated, not the basis for talks. Since the Palestinians are not even willing to enter peace talks without all of their demands being agreed to beforehand (which seems like an odd way of negotiating) I can't see much progress on this front. Particularly since the P.A. has yet to even recognised the legitimacy of the Israeli state.
And yes, Israelis have learnt a bitter lesson from the Gaza disengagement - when Jewish communities are removed radical elements (like Hamas) take over. Pragmatists are in little doubt that completely ceding the West Bank to the P.A. will destabilize the area and compromise Israeli security. So I'd expect to see continued military containment of Hamas and Hezbollah, and maintenance of the status quo with regards to Judea and Samara for the rest of Likud's governance.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Western politicians will make a show of supporting a so-called two state solution, and will publicly pressure Israel to make land concessions in the hope that this will appease the anti-Israeli lobby in the US and in Europe. However Obama knows that the Israeli government can't stop people from building homes any more than he can - enforcing a restriction on settlement growth (which is a euphemism for bulldozing peoples' houses) costs money, and at the moment there isn't much of that around, and people have to live somewhere. The best they can hope for is an end to subsidized housing in disputed areas.
The problem is, settlement removal is and always has been a final status issue - meaning that it is something that must be negotiated, not the basis for talks. Since the Palestinians are not even willing to enter peace talks without all of their demands being agreed to beforehand (which seems like an odd way of negotiating) I can't see much progress on this front. Particularly since the P.A. has yet to even recognised the legitimacy of the Israeli state.
And yes, Israelis have learnt a bitter lesson from the Gaza disengagement - when Jewish communities are removed radical elements (like Hamas) take over. Pragmatists are in little doubt that completely ceding the West Bank to the P.A. will destabilize the area and compromise Israeli security. So I'd expect to see continued military containment of Hamas and Hezbollah, and maintenance of the status quo with regards to Judea and Samara for the rest of Likud's governance.
Cry me a river for the Israelis. It matters not one wit I suppose how many truly peaceful Palestinians over the years that have been forced from their
homes at gunpoint does it?
It matters not that the barrel of those guns were often on them all the way to the border of the land that had ancestrally been theirs for thousands of years to be forced to cross into Lebanon, Egypt, Syria or Jordan?
Those people of course are all guilty of extension by the color of their skin, the land of their birth and the way that they pray.
The Israelis, Zionists and Jews of course are angelic in their temperaments, morally irreproachable characters who would never even hurt a fly, whose spirituality is just and true whom their loving and compassionate one true (G-d) only about 50 of even know the name of are always through no fault of their own on the loosing end of the stick, even when their end of the stick is 95% of it.
The pro Zionist crowd really would have me rolling on the floor with laughter through your sheer warped audacity, brazen selfishness, racism and unbridled hate…except for the fact that they are just the deadliest, vilest, most hypocritical and wretched plague of self proclaimed human beings to create a pox upon the earth they somehow, someway always manage to stain.
Karma is real…Everyone gets what is coming to them in the end.
It matters not that the barrel of those guns were often on them all the way to the border of the land that had ancestrally been theirs for thousands of years to be forced to cross into Lebanon, Egypt, Syria or Jordan?
Those people of course are all guilty of extension by the color of their skin, the land of their birth and the way that they pray.
The Israelis, Zionists and Jews of course are angelic in their temperaments, morally irreproachable characters who would never even hurt a fly, whose spirituality is just and true whom their loving and compassionate one true (G-d) only about 50 of even know the name of are always through no fault of their own on the loosing end of the stick, even when their end of the stick is 95% of it.
The pro Zionist crowd really would have me rolling on the floor with laughter through your sheer warped audacity, brazen selfishness, racism and unbridled hate…except for the fact that they are just the deadliest, vilest, most hypocritical and wretched plague of self proclaimed human beings to create a pox upon the earth they somehow, someway always manage to stain.
Karma is real…Everyone gets what is coming to them in the end.
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So you imply that peaceful Palestinians deserved to be forced out (too),karma and stuff?
Also:
Pretty much describes:
the approach shown above.
So i do not get it - you are against Israeli steps to remove illegal Israeli settlements? Or you see it as positive development? Or you see word Israel and it all gets red with rage never mind the story?
Karma is real…Everyone gets what is coming to them in the end.
.... how many truly peaceful Palestinians over the years that have been forced from their homes at gunpoint ....
So you imply that peaceful Palestinians deserved to be forced out (too),karma and stuff?
Also:
... your sheer warped audacity, brazen selfishness, racism and unbridled hate
Pretty much describes:
they are just the deadliest, vilest, most hypocritical and wretched plague of self proclaimed human beings to create a pox upon the earth they somehow, someway always manage to stain.
the approach shown above.
So i do not get it - you are against Israeli steps to remove illegal Israeli settlements? Or you see it as positive development? Or you see word Israel and it all gets red with rage never mind the story?
IT'S ABOUT TIME!! Maybe they could have a Palestinian running the bulldozer?
The pro Zionist crowd really would have me rolling on the floor with laughter through your sheer warped audacity, brazen selfishness, racism and unbridled hate…except for the fact that they are just the deadliest, vilest, most hypocritical and wretched plague of self proclaimed human beings to create a pox upon the earth they somehow, someway always manage to stain.
You talk about hate amongst pro-Israelis. I see no hate in this thread except that expressed in your own post. I rarely see any hate expressed in any rational conversation about the problems in the Middle East, except from those with a polarized view that refuse to see the other side of the argument.
As I believe I have stated elsewhere, I am supportive of self governance for Palestinians and I would like to see, at some point in the future, an independent Palestinian state living alongside and at peace with Israel.
Are we in agreement about that at least?
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
I am honestly and genuinely dismayed after the debacle of the George H. W. Bush, Sr.’s refusal in 1991 to grant U.S. Backed Loan Guarantees and how it violated the spirit of the Geneva Accord that there are still homes being built in these occupied territories.
I have seen some absolutely appalling video footage of Zionist settlers violently attempting to harass Palestinians off of choice groves and farms that constitute the little bit of productive land they have been left with after 69 some odd years now of Zionists doing everything they could possibly think of to disenfranchise every last Palestinian off of every last tillable and sustainable piece of land to either expel them from the region or herd them into increasingly shrinking enclaves devoid of economic opportunity and sustenance. This doesn’t even account for the cruel blockading and collective punishments that are used as a substitute to simple and effective investigative law enforcement.
I have to believe that if some of Israel’s most colorful leaders and heroes could masquerade in dresses to take out the Black September criminal elements in war torn Beirut during the height of a deadly civil war that it would be a walk in the park to track down Islamic militants within the West Bank and Gaza and to apprehend them and give them fair trials with due process.
I hear a lot of “oh how could we give them final status rights and concessions without an agreement in place and real peace” and while the Palestinians do continue and likely will for quite some time to rebel against the very inequitable settlements and compensations they have been left with versus the agreements of the Palestinian Mandate that every pro-Zionist in the world loves to point to as meaningless, I haven’t seen Israel do one thing that would constitute giving peace a chance to take hold.
It took decades once final status agreements were in place with First Nation Americans for them to adjust to their new reality and the reality it was European immigration and the birthing of our nation that displaced them.
Today most First Nation Americans thrive in enclaves that they have almost complete antonymous control over and in places like here in Florida where I live they are even stepping up to the plate to look for ways to funnel billions of dollars of their newly acquired wealth back in to the State that they have to pay no taxes towards because of their Status but realize it’s not in their advantage to have the State Government broke and it can be to their advantage to help even though they have no dire or imposed need to do so.
Building a bridge to peace takes time and if Israel really wants it, Israel needs to take more responsibility for how their recent introduction in to the area has upset a region where unbeknownst to many a large group of Hebrews who did not go into Diaspora lived peacefully for thousands of years in Palestine until that machinations of the British and the Zionists to all but completely dispel and disenfranchise them with nary a cent of compensation or modicum of dignity offered.
I resent the circle the wagons mentality the Anti-Defamation, Jewish Defense League, AIPAC, Christian Zionist crowds take that brook no debate or criticism in what has truly been an ugly process of disenfranchising a people whose sole guilt at the onset was being born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have enjoyed many Jewish friends and even lovers over the years but each and every one of them knew that I do not condone the politics of Israel or the attempts by certain political organizations to stifle free speech in this country to the point that they would like to criminalize some of it where it comes to Israelis and Jews in general.
I think it’s a horrendous way to treat the citizens of the nation that has been Israel’s greatest benefactor and more and more Americans are crying out for it to end, while more and more proponents of those political factions are crying out to deny Americans that freedom of speech and thought, and to stigmatize and vilify them for simply having the courage to be fair and open minded and honestly inquisitive and genuinely scholarly in their individual pursuits to find the real sources of the problem that 70 years after it’s birth in the region there is still nothing even remotely equitable or fair in Israel’s dealing with the people they displaced, often through violent means, often against non-violent people who did not want to be a party to the conflict at all.
It’s time for Israel to act responsibly and it’s time for them to face up to the same criticisms that they are so adept at dishing out.
That’s my position. Here in America it’s my inalienable right to freely speak it and in my opinion any group of people or nation that thwarts American’s right to free speech or attempts to thwart American’s right to free speech is an enemy of America.
Israel should heed these voices and not repeat the mistakes here in America that was made throughout Germany from 1916 through 1930.
[edit on 26/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
the approach shown above.
So i do not get it - you are against Israeli steps to remove illegal Israeli settlements? Or you see it as positive development? Or you see word Israel and it all gets red with rage never mind the story?
I am honestly and genuinely dismayed after the debacle of the George H. W. Bush, Sr.’s refusal in 1991 to grant U.S. Backed Loan Guarantees and how it violated the spirit of the Geneva Accord that there are still homes being built in these occupied territories.
I have seen some absolutely appalling video footage of Zionist settlers violently attempting to harass Palestinians off of choice groves and farms that constitute the little bit of productive land they have been left with after 69 some odd years now of Zionists doing everything they could possibly think of to disenfranchise every last Palestinian off of every last tillable and sustainable piece of land to either expel them from the region or herd them into increasingly shrinking enclaves devoid of economic opportunity and sustenance. This doesn’t even account for the cruel blockading and collective punishments that are used as a substitute to simple and effective investigative law enforcement.
I have to believe that if some of Israel’s most colorful leaders and heroes could masquerade in dresses to take out the Black September criminal elements in war torn Beirut during the height of a deadly civil war that it would be a walk in the park to track down Islamic militants within the West Bank and Gaza and to apprehend them and give them fair trials with due process.
I hear a lot of “oh how could we give them final status rights and concessions without an agreement in place and real peace” and while the Palestinians do continue and likely will for quite some time to rebel against the very inequitable settlements and compensations they have been left with versus the agreements of the Palestinian Mandate that every pro-Zionist in the world loves to point to as meaningless, I haven’t seen Israel do one thing that would constitute giving peace a chance to take hold.
It took decades once final status agreements were in place with First Nation Americans for them to adjust to their new reality and the reality it was European immigration and the birthing of our nation that displaced them.
Today most First Nation Americans thrive in enclaves that they have almost complete antonymous control over and in places like here in Florida where I live they are even stepping up to the plate to look for ways to funnel billions of dollars of their newly acquired wealth back in to the State that they have to pay no taxes towards because of their Status but realize it’s not in their advantage to have the State Government broke and it can be to their advantage to help even though they have no dire or imposed need to do so.
Building a bridge to peace takes time and if Israel really wants it, Israel needs to take more responsibility for how their recent introduction in to the area has upset a region where unbeknownst to many a large group of Hebrews who did not go into Diaspora lived peacefully for thousands of years in Palestine until that machinations of the British and the Zionists to all but completely dispel and disenfranchise them with nary a cent of compensation or modicum of dignity offered.
I resent the circle the wagons mentality the Anti-Defamation, Jewish Defense League, AIPAC, Christian Zionist crowds take that brook no debate or criticism in what has truly been an ugly process of disenfranchising a people whose sole guilt at the onset was being born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have enjoyed many Jewish friends and even lovers over the years but each and every one of them knew that I do not condone the politics of Israel or the attempts by certain political organizations to stifle free speech in this country to the point that they would like to criminalize some of it where it comes to Israelis and Jews in general.
I think it’s a horrendous way to treat the citizens of the nation that has been Israel’s greatest benefactor and more and more Americans are crying out for it to end, while more and more proponents of those political factions are crying out to deny Americans that freedom of speech and thought, and to stigmatize and vilify them for simply having the courage to be fair and open minded and honestly inquisitive and genuinely scholarly in their individual pursuits to find the real sources of the problem that 70 years after it’s birth in the region there is still nothing even remotely equitable or fair in Israel’s dealing with the people they displaced, often through violent means, often against non-violent people who did not want to be a party to the conflict at all.
It’s time for Israel to act responsibly and it’s time for them to face up to the same criticisms that they are so adept at dishing out.
That’s my position. Here in America it’s my inalienable right to freely speak it and in my opinion any group of people or nation that thwarts American’s right to free speech or attempts to thwart American’s right to free speech is an enemy of America.
Israel should heed these voices and not repeat the mistakes here in America that was made throughout Germany from 1916 through 1930.
[edit on 26/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
reply to post by mattpryor
This should have happened in 1976 following Camp David. It certainly should have happened in 1989 following Geneva.
Israel has prematurely destabilized ever attempt of any form of Palestinian self government prematurely.
Israelis could not be so foolish as they live, farm, and conduct business on huge swaths of land that were never promised to them when International Treaties, Conventions and Accords were signed by Zionists to allow their lawful immigration into a country that was not theirs, and a prescribed process to create a nation on 48% of the land that to date they have done little to nothing to compensate economically or politically the people they drove from it often by force of arms.
The well we were attacked nonsense is nonsense. Of course you were counter-attacked.
I would counter attack someone who drove me from my home and lands too. I would expect my friends and neighbors and allies to help in that regard too.
Israel has signed a lot of ‘peace’ agreements, none of which Israel has looked to make stick through the hard process of forging a lasting peace by understanding resentments are going to linger for one to three generations.
Were real moderation and temperance would have eased tensions and shown real strength Israel has shown false strength simply through a disproportionate use of arms and collective punishments continuing all the while to pour gasoline on a flame that needs dirt instead. The dirt of an unmolested contiguous State for Palestinians to build up strong institutions of self government and economic prosperity so that they can reestablish a life and dignity sustaining identity and community for themselves that they can see as great a value in as the places denied and lost to them.
Israel has made no credible attempt to do that. It moves in and smashes infrastructure, kills personnel and civilians in indiscriminate military actions as soon as they feel remotely threatened in the process or have born some tangible price themselves. The life of 1 Israeli is worth more than the lives of a 100 Palestinians attitude is what has denied Israel peace.
If Israelis truly want peace they need to look in the mirror and their own history in the region and how their nation was born and commit a real and noble act of contrition in a humble quest for peace.
The strategy of cowering your opponent into submission is not a road to peace.
The strategy of elevating your opponent to a shared level of prosperity and mutual respect is a road to peace.
I have never seen Israel do that, and while perhaps the Palestinians never have either, someone has to be big enough, and smart enough to truly extent the first hand and show what amounts to true human strength of letting it be bit just so long and often as it takes for the party biting it to realize it’s a strong hand of friendship and it’s a hand that truly wants to help.
That’s real strength my friend.
As I believe I have stated elsewhere, I am supportive of self governance for Palestinians and I would like to see, at some point in the future, an independent Palestinian state living alongside and at peace with Israel.
Are we in agreement about that at least?
This should have happened in 1976 following Camp David. It certainly should have happened in 1989 following Geneva.
Israel has prematurely destabilized ever attempt of any form of Palestinian self government prematurely.
Israelis could not be so foolish as they live, farm, and conduct business on huge swaths of land that were never promised to them when International Treaties, Conventions and Accords were signed by Zionists to allow their lawful immigration into a country that was not theirs, and a prescribed process to create a nation on 48% of the land that to date they have done little to nothing to compensate economically or politically the people they drove from it often by force of arms.
The well we were attacked nonsense is nonsense. Of course you were counter-attacked.
I would counter attack someone who drove me from my home and lands too. I would expect my friends and neighbors and allies to help in that regard too.
Israel has signed a lot of ‘peace’ agreements, none of which Israel has looked to make stick through the hard process of forging a lasting peace by understanding resentments are going to linger for one to three generations.
Were real moderation and temperance would have eased tensions and shown real strength Israel has shown false strength simply through a disproportionate use of arms and collective punishments continuing all the while to pour gasoline on a flame that needs dirt instead. The dirt of an unmolested contiguous State for Palestinians to build up strong institutions of self government and economic prosperity so that they can reestablish a life and dignity sustaining identity and community for themselves that they can see as great a value in as the places denied and lost to them.
Israel has made no credible attempt to do that. It moves in and smashes infrastructure, kills personnel and civilians in indiscriminate military actions as soon as they feel remotely threatened in the process or have born some tangible price themselves. The life of 1 Israeli is worth more than the lives of a 100 Palestinians attitude is what has denied Israel peace.
If Israelis truly want peace they need to look in the mirror and their own history in the region and how their nation was born and commit a real and noble act of contrition in a humble quest for peace.
The strategy of cowering your opponent into submission is not a road to peace.
The strategy of elevating your opponent to a shared level of prosperity and mutual respect is a road to peace.
I have never seen Israel do that, and while perhaps the Palestinians never have either, someone has to be big enough, and smart enough to truly extent the first hand and show what amounts to true human strength of letting it be bit just so long and often as it takes for the party biting it to realize it’s a strong hand of friendship and it’s a hand that truly wants to help.
That’s real strength my friend.
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well said again!!. Thanks for saving me time in not having to post something that would not have measured up to what you have so aptly articulated.
The injustice that is going on there really riles me intensely. Until the Obama administration took over, the US has been totally implicit with Israel in committing the atrocities in Gaza, and also subservient in every aspect with Israel's demands.
The fact that two of the most powerfully armed nations in the world could see fit to take on an impoverished rock throwing population, that is undergoing sanctions at the same time, beggars belief.
Hopefully some form of sanity will prevail this time and change things for the better.
Well said again!!. Thanks for saving me time in not having to post something that would not have measured up to what you have so aptly articulated.
The injustice that is going on there really riles me intensely. Until the Obama administration took over, the US has been totally implicit with Israel in committing the atrocities in Gaza, and also subservient in every aspect with Israel's demands.
The fact that two of the most powerfully armed nations in the world could see fit to take on an impoverished rock throwing population, that is undergoing sanctions at the same time, beggars belief.
Hopefully some form of sanity will prevail this time and change things for the better.
Originally posted by A Conscience
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well said again!!. Thanks for saving me time in not having to post something that would not have measured up to what you have so aptly articulated.
The injustice that is going on there really riles me intensely. Until the Obama administration took over, the US has been totally implicit with Israel in committing the atrocities in Gaza, and also subservient in every aspect with Israel's demands.
The fact that two of the most powerfully armed nations in the world could see fit to take on an impoverished rock throwing population, that is undergoing sanctions at the same time, beggars belief.
Hopefully some form of sanity will prevail this time and change things for the better.
We can only hope my friend that this slowly developing trend on the part of the new Administration is one that will grow and not be thwarted.
George H. W. Bush took a tremendous hit by AIPAC when he denied the Israeli Government 10 billion dollars in U.S. Congress Backed Loan Guarantees.
The President vetoed the Bill when it came out of Congress and the Israeli Lobby vowed for the better part of two weeks it would create enough of a majority in Congress to override the Presidential veto.
The loans were to build housing in the occupied West Bank.
The political firestorm took on such a proportion that the Israeli Government itself asked AIPAC to back down.
Fresh on the heels of the victory of the 1st Gulf War, George H.W. Bush, Sr. enjoyed the highest approval rating of any sitting U.S. President ever.
While a quickly souring economy began to rapidly erode his prestige in the Press and in the public in the immediate aftermath of his refusal for the next ten months running up to his election the Press portrayed his handling of the economy as atrocious.
He lost his reelection bid and the day after Clinton won the election two stories appeared in the Washington Post that day. The first was a cover op-ed piece informing citizens that they should not hold Bill Clinton accountable for the economy as the economy is the prevue of Big Business and Wall Street not the Government! The second was a smaller story on the inside front cover about a an American-Jew in New Jersey who was being investigated for planting stories in the press to undermine the Bush Presidency because he felt Clinton would be more pro-Israel.
George W. Bush, Jr., interestingly enough rarely if ever bucked Israel on anything and I do think in large part it was out of learning that lesson from his Father’s courage and temerity that his son was so lacking in.
If President Obama is truly challenging the Israeli state which I feel it’s still to early to tell if anything he is doing domestically or internationally is credible as of yet, he can expect to face stiffening opposition from the Israeli Lobby in Congress, and the Press as he does so.
Time will tell what mettle he is made of. It sure has told what Israel is all about.
I think something is being forgotten in the discussion of Bush Sr and the 1991 war in Iraq.
The PLO also declared war on the US-British alliance. Few may remember the front page pictures of Yasser Arafat embracing Saddam Hussein making defiant statements on the war with the West.
At the behest of the US, Israel stoically sat that one out though there were missiles sent to them from Iraq.
Another episode in the history of the Palestinians, as are their 3 unsuccessful attempts to destroy Israel and rid the region of it's majority Jewish population. At times the word genocide was used by in the Arabic press.
But the popular conception is being promoted that the Palestinians are unjust victims of Israeli aggression and attempted genocide.
Given the Palestinian's stated intentions, including their refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, their previous and ongoing actions, they have been given more consideration by those they oppose than many would expect.
Mike
[edit on 27-5-2009 by mmiichael]
The PLO also declared war on the US-British alliance. Few may remember the front page pictures of Yasser Arafat embracing Saddam Hussein making defiant statements on the war with the West.
At the behest of the US, Israel stoically sat that one out though there were missiles sent to them from Iraq.
Another episode in the history of the Palestinians, as are their 3 unsuccessful attempts to destroy Israel and rid the region of it's majority Jewish population. At times the word genocide was used by in the Arabic press.
But the popular conception is being promoted that the Palestinians are unjust victims of Israeli aggression and attempted genocide.
Given the Palestinian's stated intentions, including their refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, their previous and ongoing actions, they have been given more consideration by those they oppose than many would expect.
Mike
[edit on 27-5-2009 by mmiichael]
Originally posted by mmiichael
I think something is being forgotten in the discussion of Bush Sr and the 1991 war in Iraq.
The PLO also declared war on the US-British alliance. Few may remember the front page pictures of Yasser Arafat embracing Saddam Hussein making defiant statements on the war with the West.
At the behest of the US, Israel stoically sat that one out though there were missiles sent to them from Iraq.
Another episode in the history of the Palestinians, as are their 3 unsuccessful attempts to destroy Israel and rid the region of it's majority Jewish population. At times the word genocide was used by in the Arabic press.
But the popular conception is being promoted that the Palestinians are unjust victims of Israeli aggression and attempted genocide.
Given the Palestinian's stated intentions, including their refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, their previous and ongoing actions, they have been given more consideration by those they oppose than many would expect.
Mike
[edit on 27-5-2009 by mmiichael]
No doubt about it Mike there are always two sides to a coin.
Yet the reality is that it's only the stronger opponent that can make peace.
It's the stronger opponent that has nothing to truly fear in War.
It's like Rome said, you can have peace, you can have war it matters not to Rome.
As long as it doesn't matter to Rome, and Israel is Rome in my huble oppinion then it's always going to be war.
It takes as much strength of conviction and discipline and resolve and innovation to make and win peace as it does to make and win a war.
Israel is in the dominant position, superior in every way save one...
Morally in my humble oppinion each side is equal, because each side chooses war.
I don't believe any side can claim to be Morally superior until it puts as much effort in making and winning peace as it does in to war.
Now having said that Mike, regardless what has happened to date between the kids over there, facts are fact, until the wave of Zionist immigration brought on by the Balfour Decleration, a Colonial Power whose very purpose was to disenfranchise other peoples and lands of their liberties and resources for monetary profit and glory...all the kids, Hebrew and Muslim alike were getting along in the region...
Now I don't care why they started it, it matters not one wit to me, but hey it got started, and it took the new kids on the block to show up for that to happen.
Israel is the new kid on the block, so yeah, morally the onus is on them to be a moral cut above...
If they truly want to lay claim to that distinction of being a moral cut above.
It's that simple. Israel needs to get it's act together, stop screwing around and use some of all that money we really can't afford to be sending them to put some real effort to making peace.
All the money that the United States has given Israel Mike could have by now I am certain bought every last Palistinian and their red headed freckled step cousin from Ireland a mansion on Lake Geneva by now.
Enough already.
I think your a very intelligent person Mike, we are on different sides of the coin on this one. I don't think that will change.
I respect you all the same.
So much so, that if you would ever like to join the debate forum to add a fighter tag to your account and participate in the tournaments, I would really enjoy debating you on some other subject in that forum on something that our individual passions for weren't so heartfelt.
I would like to be your friend and simply agree to disagree where it comes to Israel.
In fact I am going to add you to my friends list Mike if you don't mind, and if you should find my invitation to debate another issue appealing I would be grateful for that.
To participate in that forum we actually have to challenge each other on a topic we would enjoy debating and let the forum moderator now so he can set it up.
I suspect from the quality of your replies in these forums and threads you would be an outstanding debator and may in fact already have some real experience at organized debate.
I am sure what ever side of a topic you chose I would definately learn some very worthwhile things in what you were sharing.
Please let me know if you would like to.
I am not looking for Israel or any nation to be destroyed or any human being of any nation to be harmed or killed.
I am tough on Israel because I truly believe they could do better and I have that expectation.
It's in their own best interest that they find that way, and frankly after 70 years of doing the same old thing and not finding peace.
I think it's time to teach the puppy some new tricks!
Ciao
reply to post by mmiichael
Oh and by the way I haven't forgotten about former President Bush's call to a thousand points of light to establish a New World Order.
I haven't forgotten that Kuwait was once apart of Iraq stretching as far back as before Hadrian sacked the Second Temple.
I haven't forgotten that the Kuwaiti's were diagnaly drilling for Oil into Iraq.
I haven't forgotten the mutual defense treaties that Regan had signed with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia in exchange for helping in a strategic oil strategy to help keep the Soviet Union off the international oil markets at a time they desperately needed funds to try to counter Regan's Space Based Defence Initiative.
I sure haven't forgotten that prior to the 1st Gulf War that the only way for an American to set foot in Saudi Arabia was to either go to the Haj or by having the Minister of Saudi Commerce personally approve a Visa that was not easy to come by except for the most important and influential of American Businessmen.
I haven't even forgotten that Bush Sr. owned a substantial interest in those diaganal drilling sights in Kuwait.
I sure haven't forgotten what Secretary of State Albright did in hoodwiking Saddam Hussein in to thinking the U.S. would not care should Iraq go into Kuwait.
I sure haven't forgotten the absolute wretched and pathetic images of those Iraqi soldiers crawling out of their pits in the sand, bowing and groveling at the feet of my own nation's soldiers thankful that their ordeal in the desert for a despotic tyrant that my Nation helped create and bolster to prosecute a war against Iran for revenge for what at the end of the day was nationalizing their own oil wells and kicking American Corporations out of the country.
Those images Mike are all burned in my mind, for as I witnessed them as they happened in my minds eye, I saw today comming. I saw it all leading to this precarious tipping point...were the whole world holds it's collective breath knowing that what at any moment now might begin to unfold would lead to that chain reaction were life as we all know it forever changes in a cataclysmic way.
I sure haven't forgotten that through those machinations we have managed to have U.S. Military boots on that soil in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, once closed societies that now live alongside the watchful guns and powerful might of my nation's military.
No sir, I sure wish I could forget.
Oh how I wish I could forget Mike.
I would have so been in favor of giving the Jews of the world Southern California, Arizona, and Nevada, and given them money to build a temple out of Marble and Gold all the way to the sky, and every little Red Bull that walked the earth to sacrifice in front of it to their unamed G-d.
I can't even forget that 5,000 years ago that the Habiru/Hapiri/Hebrew refused to name their G-d(s).
When I get back I swear I am firing the writer, this script absolutely sucks Mike.
I think it needs a rewrite long about now.
I think something is being forgotten in the discussion of Bush Sr and the 1991 war in Iraq.
Oh and by the way I haven't forgotten about former President Bush's call to a thousand points of light to establish a New World Order.
I haven't forgotten that Kuwait was once apart of Iraq stretching as far back as before Hadrian sacked the Second Temple.
I haven't forgotten that the Kuwaiti's were diagnaly drilling for Oil into Iraq.
I haven't forgotten the mutual defense treaties that Regan had signed with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia in exchange for helping in a strategic oil strategy to help keep the Soviet Union off the international oil markets at a time they desperately needed funds to try to counter Regan's Space Based Defence Initiative.
I sure haven't forgotten that prior to the 1st Gulf War that the only way for an American to set foot in Saudi Arabia was to either go to the Haj or by having the Minister of Saudi Commerce personally approve a Visa that was not easy to come by except for the most important and influential of American Businessmen.
I haven't even forgotten that Bush Sr. owned a substantial interest in those diaganal drilling sights in Kuwait.
I sure haven't forgotten what Secretary of State Albright did in hoodwiking Saddam Hussein in to thinking the U.S. would not care should Iraq go into Kuwait.
I sure haven't forgotten the absolute wretched and pathetic images of those Iraqi soldiers crawling out of their pits in the sand, bowing and groveling at the feet of my own nation's soldiers thankful that their ordeal in the desert for a despotic tyrant that my Nation helped create and bolster to prosecute a war against Iran for revenge for what at the end of the day was nationalizing their own oil wells and kicking American Corporations out of the country.
Those images Mike are all burned in my mind, for as I witnessed them as they happened in my minds eye, I saw today comming. I saw it all leading to this precarious tipping point...were the whole world holds it's collective breath knowing that what at any moment now might begin to unfold would lead to that chain reaction were life as we all know it forever changes in a cataclysmic way.
I sure haven't forgotten that through those machinations we have managed to have U.S. Military boots on that soil in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, once closed societies that now live alongside the watchful guns and powerful might of my nation's military.
No sir, I sure wish I could forget.
Oh how I wish I could forget Mike.
I would have so been in favor of giving the Jews of the world Southern California, Arizona, and Nevada, and given them money to build a temple out of Marble and Gold all the way to the sky, and every little Red Bull that walked the earth to sacrifice in front of it to their unamed G-d.
I can't even forget that 5,000 years ago that the Habiru/Hapiri/Hebrew refused to name their G-d(s).
When I get back I swear I am firing the writer, this script absolutely sucks Mike.
I think it needs a rewrite long about now.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
... the reality is that it's only the stronger opponent that can make peace.
It's the stronger opponent that has nothing to truly fear in War.
It's like Rome said, you can have peace, you can have war it matters not to Rome.
As long as it doesn't matter to Rome, and Israel is Rome in my huble oppinion then it's always going to be war.
Let's stop there. A tiny country carved out of the dissembled Ottoman Empire with an 80% majority Jewish citizenry. Surrounded by mostly hostile Muslim countries with populations and oil wealth many times their own. In a constant state of siege since it's inception.
5 Million Jews in Israel, with maybe another 8 Million spread thought the world. A Muslim population of 1.4 Billion, dominating over 50 countries, many of them hugely wealthy with vast oil resources. By and large with declared aggression against the state of Israel. Israel occupies in insanely huge portion of it’s resources and finances just to stay alive.
That's your Rome?
Israel is in the dominant position, superior in every way save one...
Morally in my humble oppinion each side is equal, because each side chooses war.
Jews immigrate to a British controlled Mandate. They buy farms at extortionate prices from Arab landowners. Drain swamps, plant trees, farm. Experience a massive influx of Arab immigration from surrounding countries as Jews are paying 5 timed the going rate for unskilled labor.
The Mufti of Jerusalem Yasser Arafat’s uncle, organizes Jewish massacres. He is paid by the Nazis to come to Berlin and rally for worldwide Jewish genocide.
1948, Israel receive statehood with the Arabs of the territory being a rewarded a larger state called Jordan. It is the new Palestinian state.
Day 1 of Israel’s existence a massive war against them by surrounding Arab countries.
Israel wins.
They ask the fleeing Arabs to return, but are rebuffed.
The Jewish population is then supplemented by three quarters of a million Jews thrown out of neighbouring Muslim countries.
Israel is attacked by the Arab countries in two more unsuccessful wars. They remain in constant siege even today.
But they are morally wrong in doing what appears necessary to avert declared genocide based on their chosen religion.
Israel is the new kid on the block, so yeah, morally the onus is on them to be a moral cut above...
If they truly want to lay claim to that distinction of being a moral cut above.
[...]
I am tough on Israel because I truly believe they could do better and I have that expectation.
It's in their own best interest that they find that way, and frankly after 70 years of doing the same old thing and not finding peace.
I think it's time to teach the puppy some new tricks!
Thanks for the left out personal compliments and the seemingly well-intentioned but patronizing moralizing.
Israel wants nothing more than civilized interraction with its Muslim neighbours and to get on with developing its trade and industries.
Jews came to the region escaping hostility and genocide. They want peace with their neighbours not war.
They had a war declared on them 3 times. They won 3 times.
Throughout history people have been defeated and come to terms with the realities of defeat.
They make peace and move on with their lives.
Israel has made ever possible overture to share with the people of the region.
The answer has been perpetual war against them.
I think it’s time to teach the Arabs of the region there is more to be gained by tolerance and co-operation.
It’s a win-win proposition.
A new trick.
Mike
reply to post by mmiichael
It sounds like a pretty story Mike...I can imagine why some people would be more than wanting to believe it.
How do you explain the Stern Gang the Zionist acts of terrorism. A former Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir murdering Count Bernadotte Folke of Switzerland the U.N. Special Envoy and his aide de camp?
Were they related to Yassar Arafat too?
How do you explain that the Arab lands you claim the Zionists paid five times the going rate for were not sold to them by Arabs but by corrupt English Governors?
Mike do you know that the local Arabs had a communal land ownership where for thousands of years the cheifs of each neighboring village would get together before the start of each planting season to decide how much of the tillable land each village needed to cultivate?
Do you know that many of the Arabs were free rangers, sheppards that followed their flocks to food and water and had been for thousands of years.
Do you know that if they paid five times too much for the land it was often because after lobbying to reform land owning laws that allowed for absolute ownership which would grant the right to the owner to deny passage for the first time ever to grazing flocks that strategic parcels were bought to...
A. block the traditional herding routes
B. prevent the Palistinians from ever being able to have 52% of the land in a contiguous mass.
How do you account for Zionists in fact killing other Jews if they did hire Arab labor?
How do you account for the King David Hotel? The 100 some odd English lives that were lost in a premeditated Zionist terrorist bombing?
How do you really expect to pass off the fact that people who traditionally wandered in and out of the country with their herds were in fact just doing that as they had for thousands of years.
How on earth do you account for destroying a people's long standing way of life in a land that the Zionists were granted the privelage to lawfully immigrate to by the very people they then stole from, murdered, and exiled.
The people that were suspicious all along that the Zionists in fact would do exactly what they did.
The people who took that chance anyway, because promises were made to them that they trusted others to keep.
How do you explain the fact that it was Zionist Terrorism and not Arab Terrorism that caused the British to renig on seeing that the agreements were honored.
How do you explain that even then when the U.N. tried the cold blodded terrorist killing of it's cheif envoy by someone who would one day be the Prime Minister.
How do you account for frank admissions by Zionists that they would sometimes slaughter every man, woman and child in a village that they knew the people of were peaceful and not involved in any violence against Zionists but they just happened to be the closest most convenient target to stage a bigger bloodier reprisal for an act of defense on the Palistians part whose lands the Zionists were outright stealing.
I am sorry Mike, I know the history, I have seen the films, reviewed the documents, spoken to people on both sides that were really there when this was happening.
That's a children's fairy tale and if you believe that nonsense I truly feel sorry for you.
Israel is not the victim.
The Zionists were agressors with a plan from day one, and it's little secret it still perturbs them that they couldn't get every last Arab to flee, and every one but them selves to pay for it.
You can't.
That's why you post canned fairy tales and distortions of history boiled down in to meaningless fragments for people who have been painstakingly taught to be bigoted and hateful of Arabs and Muslims.
That's just pure nonsense Mike.
This is what rankles me to no end about Zionist propoganda it's just insulting to the intelligence of people who actually take the time to learn what happened and what's going on.
Ultimately at some point it boils down to other people being that stupid to believe it, or Israel being that dumb to keep peddling it.
The Zionists want to control everything from the Brooks of Egypt to the Mesopotamiam Delta.
That was their goal in 1897 when they scoffed at Etheopia for a homeland Mike, and it's still their goal today.
The Middle East is a bloody mess from all these lies and manipulations and shame on anyone who wants to be a part of that or condones it.
These things always work out the same Mike when the Jews over reach.
Lots of people die including them.
It's happened again and again throughout history Mike.
Ultimately Israel is going to lay in ruins and the Jews living there sacrificed to a grander plan that just but a handful of the Zionists will profit from and live through for the sake of their own power, wealth and glory.
Ultimately that's not in the average Jew's or Israeli's interest.
Sadly they will have nothing but their own distorted egos to blame once more.
You see Mike when people conspire to lie about and cover up history and twist it into something it wasn't, everyone ends up suffering for it, including the fools who rewrote it who along the way forget those who have not learned the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Frankly I am not that stupid...why is Israel?
[edit on 27/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
It sounds like a pretty story Mike...I can imagine why some people would be more than wanting to believe it.
How do you explain the Stern Gang the Zionist acts of terrorism. A former Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir murdering Count Bernadotte Folke of Switzerland the U.N. Special Envoy and his aide de camp?
Were they related to Yassar Arafat too?
How do you explain that the Arab lands you claim the Zionists paid five times the going rate for were not sold to them by Arabs but by corrupt English Governors?
Mike do you know that the local Arabs had a communal land ownership where for thousands of years the cheifs of each neighboring village would get together before the start of each planting season to decide how much of the tillable land each village needed to cultivate?
Do you know that many of the Arabs were free rangers, sheppards that followed their flocks to food and water and had been for thousands of years.
Do you know that if they paid five times too much for the land it was often because after lobbying to reform land owning laws that allowed for absolute ownership which would grant the right to the owner to deny passage for the first time ever to grazing flocks that strategic parcels were bought to...
A. block the traditional herding routes
B. prevent the Palistinians from ever being able to have 52% of the land in a contiguous mass.
How do you account for Zionists in fact killing other Jews if they did hire Arab labor?
How do you account for the King David Hotel? The 100 some odd English lives that were lost in a premeditated Zionist terrorist bombing?
How do you really expect to pass off the fact that people who traditionally wandered in and out of the country with their herds were in fact just doing that as they had for thousands of years.
How on earth do you account for destroying a people's long standing way of life in a land that the Zionists were granted the privelage to lawfully immigrate to by the very people they then stole from, murdered, and exiled.
The people that were suspicious all along that the Zionists in fact would do exactly what they did.
The people who took that chance anyway, because promises were made to them that they trusted others to keep.
How do you explain the fact that it was Zionist Terrorism and not Arab Terrorism that caused the British to renig on seeing that the agreements were honored.
How do you explain that even then when the U.N. tried the cold blodded terrorist killing of it's cheif envoy by someone who would one day be the Prime Minister.
How do you account for frank admissions by Zionists that they would sometimes slaughter every man, woman and child in a village that they knew the people of were peaceful and not involved in any violence against Zionists but they just happened to be the closest most convenient target to stage a bigger bloodier reprisal for an act of defense on the Palistians part whose lands the Zionists were outright stealing.
I am sorry Mike, I know the history, I have seen the films, reviewed the documents, spoken to people on both sides that were really there when this was happening.
That's a children's fairy tale and if you believe that nonsense I truly feel sorry for you.
Israel is not the victim.
The Zionists were agressors with a plan from day one, and it's little secret it still perturbs them that they couldn't get every last Arab to flee, and every one but them selves to pay for it.
You can't.
That's why you post canned fairy tales and distortions of history boiled down in to meaningless fragments for people who have been painstakingly taught to be bigoted and hateful of Arabs and Muslims.
That's just pure nonsense Mike.
This is what rankles me to no end about Zionist propoganda it's just insulting to the intelligence of people who actually take the time to learn what happened and what's going on.
Ultimately at some point it boils down to other people being that stupid to believe it, or Israel being that dumb to keep peddling it.
The Zionists want to control everything from the Brooks of Egypt to the Mesopotamiam Delta.
That was their goal in 1897 when they scoffed at Etheopia for a homeland Mike, and it's still their goal today.
The Middle East is a bloody mess from all these lies and manipulations and shame on anyone who wants to be a part of that or condones it.
These things always work out the same Mike when the Jews over reach.
Lots of people die including them.
It's happened again and again throughout history Mike.
Ultimately Israel is going to lay in ruins and the Jews living there sacrificed to a grander plan that just but a handful of the Zionists will profit from and live through for the sake of their own power, wealth and glory.
Ultimately that's not in the average Jew's or Israeli's interest.
Sadly they will have nothing but their own distorted egos to blame once more.
You see Mike when people conspire to lie about and cover up history and twist it into something it wasn't, everyone ends up suffering for it, including the fools who rewrote it who along the way forget those who have not learned the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Frankly I am not that stupid...why is Israel?
[edit on 27/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
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