Postal workers in BNP leaflet row

Originally posted by neformore
I just got a flyer through my door. Read it. ripped it up. Binned it.

It was just scaremongering bigoted crap.

My grandfather fought in WW2 to prevent people with a facist agenda from taking power in this country.

The party in question has its roots in Oswald Moselys's British Nazi party. Oh sure, its trying to rebrand, and its trying to be slick, but thats where it came from, and that - judging by what I just read because of its obvious and very very deliberate mention of only one religious group - is still very much at the cores of its policies.

Of course...its all dressed up to sound much more reasonable...but its not.

I do take issue with people assuming ownership of WW2 soldiers to somehow castigate the BNP- some ex servicemen are in the bloody party, and I also think that in WW2 "we" fought to retain our sovereignty and maintain our culture against foreign threat, invasion and absorption- something our liberal political class (ie the tories and labour for the last 40 years) have abandoned!

[edit on 21-5-2009 by blueorder]

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth




Well as you can't discuss this in a civil and calm manner.... then you are also now not going to be answered.

I fear i am just doing this anyway.

:bnghd: :bnghd:

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

 

Well as you can't discuss this in a civil and calm manner.... then you are also now not going to be answered.

I fear i am just doing this anyway.

:bnghd: :bnghd:

judging by the content of your posts, I think you took a knock to the head some time ago

Originally posted by Flighty
Okay fair enough, thanks for that...

Now my question is this.......
So you still have a problem because this Sharif Gawad is white?
Aren't migrants from European countries in the melting pot of multiculturalism too? Or is multiculturalism only BLACK to you??
Just interested in where exactly you are coming from.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by Flighty]

I didn't have a problem in the first place..? It was the BNP members who were outraged at this guy being "recruited"

And what are you talking about....?

Please clarify...

I was brought up in Tooting and it was always a very colourful area of London. When i went back there a few years ago after a long time away i cried my eyes out. When i got off the train and walked out of the station towards the high street, i just couldn't believe my eyes! Now i'm not racist, not at all, but every shop, cafe and business right thru to Tooting broadway and beyoned was foreign.
Not one white face, not one! Infact even the indiginous population! All the white people have disappeared. Where have they gone? No blue rinse grannies at the bus stops, no one. So on the way back i decided to stop for a bacon sandwich. I go in a cafe ( on my own ) The bloke did'nt seem to like the fact that i asked for a bacon sandwich. What's wrong with that? I felt uncomfortable in the end so i left. Being a woman on my own, i felt a bit uneasy because the staff were staring at me.
Asimilar thing happened when i went up to Wembly a few months later. I felt like i was a duck out of water. By the way the old market in Tooting isn't the same either and i couldn't wait to getout of there either.
I cried on the way home, it really did upset me.

Originally posted by Freeborn
No offence taken.
And i'll be more careful with quotes in future.
Funny thing is I once argued with a member for doing exactly what you thought I had, difference was he deliberately tried to mis-quote me and mislead people.
I wasn't happy!

Well there ya go.... cheers mate

And that would be as it should be...things fade away and die when there is no need for them.
But...till then, they ARE a political party representing the views of a proportion of society and as such should be afforded all the same rights as other political parties.
It is wrong to cherry pick who is allowed to publish political works or to stand for election.

Yep indeed...and i hope they do.

I am not advocating the banning of the BNP.... i am personally stating my opinion.... in my opinion, they should be banned and booted out of the country.... but this is my OPINION.... not what i think the law or the government should do.

And there are afforded the same rights as other parties.... but when they start breaking hate-crime laws and race-laws and such... then this must be taken into account, and usually is.
Which is why is why the BNP has the bad rep they do...

We do not live in a democracy.
We do not live in a free world.
We should.
There should be NO restriction to free speech.
Are we not all equal?
Who decides what should be restricted?

Of course we don't.... i don't think we ever have.
And yes we should... but if you just allow any and everybody to say go around saying what ever they like without any repercussions, then society would break down almost immediately...

And i can almost guarantee that if the BNP win seats of the kind of figures that are being touted about... then we will have race riots and all kinds of civil unrest.

How can we have open, honest debate if certain subjects / opinions aren't allowed.
Next thing we'll have book burnings.
Or maybe Gulag's.
You do see where that leads don't you.

Not really.... as i said, certain things should be discouraged.
Why let people who just have hate and ignorance as their agenda go around stirring up hatred and trouble??

How does that benefit anybody?

Yes...we need a catalyst.....yes we need change and reform on many issues.
But voting in a far right, racist and deplorable party such as the BNP, IMO... is not a viable option.

it's all about opinions man.... like assholes.... everyone has one.

Wrong.
The Nazi's thought themselves very moral and just.
It depends on your perception.

It does depend on your perception indeed.
But where do you draw the line...

And who draws it?

Why don't we ban them too?
Why just single out the BNP?
Hell, why stop there, what about the odious teachings of Islam, Christianity, Judaism?
How many people have died in the name of democracy in recent years?
Banning and censorship is not the answer.
Open and honest debate in a free society is.
That is impossible at present.

Of course open and honest debate is the answer....but as the government won't allow us a vote on anything.... then what can we do?
Just vote in the racists to spite them?

religion should be kept separate from politics IMO...so although I'm not particularly religious, this has no bearing on the topic at hand.

Apart from paedophilia I don't think anything whatsoever should be censored.

But then arguments could be put forward for rapists, peadophiles and so on and so forth.

Where does it stop...

Oh...well let's allow a party that completely bans women from joining them

And one that completely bans people over the age of 30....

And one that goes round the country telling every non-white person to vote for them and they'll get the whites kicked out of the UK.

This is what annoys me, and this is in no way aimed at or related to, you.

Imagine this was a militant muslim extremist group (and i only use muslim extremists as an example, as most people I've debated and discussed this with, seem to have the biggest problem with muslims, as if they are one race or something )... that had formed a party...they wanted every white person kicked out of the country, were flyering and leafleting all over the UK about it, many of their member had convictions for hate crimes and race crimes.....everybody knew exactly what they were and what they were about... but somehow they started gaining popularity...

I KNOW for a fact, most people would be up in arms about it... people would be screaming bloody murder and it would be a hundred times worse than any of this BNP stuff.

Activism should be encouraged.
ATS does try to be impartial but I have never known it be anti-Activism.
In fact I think it wants to people to have the strength of their convictions to actually do something.
Too many people in this country just sit back and moan but when it comes down to it they haven't the bottle to do anything at all.
They are scared and frightened.
We have become a nation of whingers.
Our ancestors would be ashamed of us.

It's in the T's & C's that ATS is absolutely, 100% against activism in any form....seriously....a big NO NO on here.

And i agree....most people sit and bitch on the net and do bugger all about anything they are annoyed about or care about.

I am not one of those people.

As has come up in a few threads regarding protests and police brutality.

Because the BNP stirs up emotions and causes debate, simply by their nature.
They will insist on bringing the issues that people want sorting bringing to the fore; immigration and EU Membership.
No other party will ensure that.
UKIP are Tory funded and only there to split the right wing vote.
An old and transparent tactic.
[edit on 21/5/09 by Freeborn]

Yes....and they know that those are the peoples gripes at the minute.

That is the ONLY reason why they are using those as the main, focal point of their campaign.

they used to be massively anti-Semitic.....they now know that people are "concerned about islam" so they are now pushing this...

It is all about breeding ignorance, fear and intolerance.

[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by Flighty

Regardless of what people think of the BNP party, if they pay for postage to deliver pamphlets are they are a legal party, then their postage should be delivered.

I'm not British - but I do agree with this - I'm a pretty big supporter of free speech - I have to agree with it

if we uphold it - if we maintain it - it will be the one thing we can count on to keep us all free

even when it really hurts sometimes

but, then:

Since when do mailmen decide what mail gets delivered and what doesn't??

since the moment they began exercising their right to free speech - as citizens

conscientious objection is no small thing

this wasn't done in the dark - it wasn't secret - they made a very public decision - and it couldn't have been an easy one

Otherwise, whats to stop a supporter of one political party from dumping the pamphlets of the opposing party? In fact, wouldn't be at all surprised if that happens either.

this argument everyone is having right now is exactly what should happen - it will prevent the very thing you're afraid will happen

this will undoubtedly change the way certain things are handled - decisions will be made precisely because of this situation

instead of going by the letter of the law - why not a rebellion? What better way to fight injustice?

would you rather live in a world where free speech is protected - but people aren't? We've all seen just how bad bad can get - you think it can't or won't happen again?

I'd feel much better living in a country where ordinary citizens are willing to make a stand and do what they think is right than live in a country where no one did anything because it would be going against the rules

freedom of speech isn't going to be degraded one bit from any of this - it's going to be put to the test

meantime - good for them - I wish more people could feel that strong - and decide to do what they thought was right - not what is correct

Originally posted by blupblup
This is in breach of the “conscience clause” agreed in 2005 that allows postal workers not to deliver material that they find offensive or believe their customers may find offensive.
And I'm glad they're using it to make a point.

And this is the only reason why I think they are right.

While I despise the BNP, they are (unfortunately) a legitimate party. Their election materials should stand up to criticism and monitoring prior to delivery, and if it meets standards, then it should be delivered.
It is up to the individual to have the choice. And no sensible person should ever abuse a Postal worker for having to deliver it.

I wouldn't give my Postman a hard time because I would understand that it is their job, not their choice.

I'm glad there is a clause in their contract that allows this to be refused, but at the same time, I think that's the only reason that they should be allowed to refuse.

Freedom of opinion is great when it suits your own opinion, but it should be shown in all directions when within the laws of this country. As long as the BNP are within the laws of this country they should be treated like any other political party.

They might not be a very nice group of people and their views may be disgusting, but it is up to the people to decide who to vote for.

I am not advocating the banning of the BNP.... i am personally stating my opinion.... in my opinion, they should be banned and booted out of the country.... but this is my OPINION.... not what i think the law or the government should do.

Well you are advocating the banning of it, if it is your opinion, think about it ffs- tbh I would vote for sending you to Somalia

Originally posted by blueorder
Well you are advocating the banning of it, if it is your opinion, think about it ffs- tbh I would vote for sending you to Somalia

Well thanks...i could do with a holiday.

I guess i am for banning them.... and i am an advocate, although not in the legal sense...well....maybe i am

Fair enough....

Originally posted by detachedindividual
While I despise the BNP, they are (unfortunately) a legitimate party. Their election materials should stand up to criticism and monitoring prior to delivery, and if it meets standards, then it should be delivered.
It is up to the individual to have the choice. And no sensible person should ever abuse a Postal worker for having to deliver it.

For me...it's not really about the postie getting abused... i don't really buy that anyway.

I think most/many of them feel it's a question of morals and ethics...

And i applaud them for taking a stand.

If more people did this....perhaps the BNP may get the message.

Originally posted by blupblup
Well thanks...i could do with a holiday.

I guess i am for banning them.... and i am an advocate, although not in the legal sense...well....maybe i am

Fair enough....

you can see how that is classic fascist tendency, banning a party, a party which is not advocating violence, that is a very fascist thing to wish- but why stop there, why not ban some of the extreme fringe parties of a communist variety or islamist variety?

reply to post by blupblup


What a joke.. they might have some out there policies but for God's sake..

They're the only politicians in the country that tell you what they're actually about!!!

They're a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

Except for that Gurkha business... they perhaps need to be taught the difference between illegal immigrants that sponge off the country and generally wind me up, and nationals who have fought in defence of this country

Originally posted by blupblup
For me...it's not really about the postie getting abused... i don't really buy that anyway.

I think most/many of them feel it's a question of morals and ethics...

And i applaud them for taking a stand.

If more people did this....perhaps the BNP may get the message.

you realise that morals and ethics are subjective- you may find a Muslim postie who does not wish to post items which promote abortion, contraception etc?

WOuld they have a right to refuse?

Originally posted by blueorder
you can see how that is classic fascist tendency, banning a party, a party which is not advocating violence, that is a very fascist thing to wish- but why stop there, why not ban some of the extreme fringe parties of a communist variety or islamist variety?

It's my opinion...i am entitled to it.

they do advocate violence.... don't be ignorant...

they incite racial hatred, their party LEADER has been convicted of it.. :shk:

If you read my posts, you would see my opinion on ANY groups that are like the BNP..

READ THE THREAD

Originally posted by ItsallCrazy
Except for that Gurkha business... they perhaps need to be taught the difference between illegal immigrants that sponge off the country and generally wind me up, and nationals who have fought in defence of this country

They also need to be taught that people are people, no matter the colour of their skin.


But i won't hold my breath.

Originally posted by blueorder
you realise that morals and ethics are subjective- you may find a Muslim postie who does not wish to post items which promote abortion, contraception etc?

WOuld they have a right to refuse?

I stopped replying to you before because of your ignorance.... everything you are saying and asking has already been answered.... if you just READ THE THREAD.

All you examples are just silly....they have been answered on previous pages....please keep up.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

 

Well as you can't discuss this in a civil and calm manner.... then you are also now not going to be answered.

I fear i am just doing this anyway.

:bnghd: :bnghd:

Well, I did not launch a personal attack on you - I asked you a question. If you cannot differentiate between the two, in the same manner you can't seem to see that repressing people's views and opinions is fundamentally a fascist tactic, then what conclusions can you draw from that?

Originally posted by blupblup
It's my opinion...i am entitled to it.

yes, and I am highlighting the hypocrisy of that opinion and it's fascist tendency

they do advocate violence.... don't be ignorant...

the BNP as a party adovate violence? Really, link me to one of their pamphlets, manifestos, etc that advocate violence?

they incite racial hatred, their party LEADER has been convicted of it.. :shk:

That doesn't work- the previous conviction of a leader does not equate to party policy- show me the party policy which advocates violence?

If you read my posts, you would see my opinion on ANY groups that are like the BNP..

like who?

READ THE THREAD

tell me some of the political parties then?

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by detachedindividual
While I despise the BNP, they are (unfortunately) a legitimate party. Their election materials should stand up to criticism and monitoring prior to delivery, and if it meets standards, then it should be delivered.
It is up to the individual to have the choice. And no sensible person should ever abuse a Postal worker for having to deliver it.

For me...it's not really about the postie getting abused... i don't really buy that anyway.

I think most/many of them feel it's a question of morals and ethics...

And i applaud them for taking a stand.

If more people did this....perhaps the BNP may get the message.

So you are saying you think they LIED about being abused and yet you say it's not a political but a MORAL issue.

Personally, I'd like to see the actual person who set this all in motion.
Wonder if they'd be of a ethnic persuasion by chance?
If so, I think it shows their agenda IS a political one.