Postal workers in BNP leaflet row

reply to post by blupblup


Blupblup, i'm not quite sure what you're missing here. I am not defending the BNP, i never have, i never will. I am quite aware how disgusting they are and i have seen the documentaries. The only reason i can see you labouring this point is because you are trying to deflect the arguments made. So yes let me say it again, the BNP are disgusting, i truly wish they didn't exist and i can only hope they are all soon attacked by rabid hamsters that have been starved for a week and genetically altered to seek out the nether regions of the human being.

Is that quite clear enough?

EDIT

Whilst this doesn't change what they stand for it does mean that as long as they straddle the right side of the hate line the workers cannot use the clause you mentioned.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Blupblup, i'm not quite sure what you're missing here. I am not defending the BNP, i never have, i never will. I am quite aware how disgusting they are and i have seen the documentaries. The only reason i can see you labouring this point is because you are trying to deflect the arguments made. So yes let me say it again, the BNP are disgusting, i truly wish they didn't exist and i can only hope they are all soon attacked by rabid hamsters that have been starved for a week and genetically altered to seek out the nether regions of the human being.
Is that quite clear enough?

Oh i know you're against them....yet you keep defending them.
Perhaps defending free speech....perhaps playing devils advocate... perhaps a bit of both??

But you bring points up that i disprove... like the "no recent arrests" one... then somehow turn this around on me...

If we're in agreeance on the BNP....why do you keep popping up and arguing/debating it with me?

And defending supporters of it?

I am a little confused...





[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by blupblup


I'm in defense of free speech. That is not the same as defending the BNP. You are confused because you are unable to separate the two things due to your passion over the BNP. As for the no recent arrests, the articles you link are from the end of 2008 and 2004! I mean 2004 is not recent at all and we're nearly halfway through 2009!

Anyway the point of the thread was postal workers refusing to post leaflets on account of their personal beliefs. The leaflets have not been deemed to be racist or hate speech by the powers that be (so far) and the postal workers have no right or reason to not post material they disagree with unless it can be officially classified as hate speech. If they don't want to post it they need to look for another job, the post is supposed to be impartial.

That is what gets me about all of this. That and people like yourself who cannot put their personal ideologies aside. You i'm sure support free speech but as soon as the suppression of a certain view comes along that you happen to also dislike, you happily trample over free speech as if it were an annoyance!

So that is what i'm defending, free speech and the fair application of law, nothing more, nothing less.

The law is reason free from passion - Aristotle

Maybe you need to put aside your passion and judge the situation on it's merits in regards to the law.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I'm in defense of free speech. That is not the same as defending the BNP. You are confused because you are unable to separate the two things due to your passion over the BNP. As for the no recent arrests, the articles you link are from the end of 2008 and 2004! I mean 2004 is not recent at all and we're nearly halfway through 2009!

Yeah but they are recent..... i could find more if you like..

The point is you said none were arrested recently...so how is that NOT defending them...?

You don't KNOW that none have not been arrested recently.

Hmmmmm

:
. The leaflets have not been deemed to be racist or hate speech by the powers that be (so far) and the postal workers have no right or reason to not post material they disagree with unless it can be officially classified as hate speech.

Uh.... you obviously missed the link in the OP that said these workers WON their appeal about delivering these.... that's the point.

The post office did a U-turn mate...

Job done

:
That is what gets me about all of this. That and people like yourself who cannot put their personal ideologies aside. You i'm sure support free speech but as soon as the suppression of a certain view comes along that you happen to also dislike, you happily trample over free speech as if it were an annoyance!

I'm against hate speech more than I'm in favour of free speech to be honest.

I don't believe I've really brought up the free speech debate, although others have...it's of little concern to me.







[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]

Originally posted by blupblup

:
. The leaflets have not been deemed to be racist or hate speech by the powers that be (so far) and the postal workers have no right or reason to not post material they disagree with unless it can be officially classified as hate speech.

Uh.... you obviously missed the link in the OP that said these workers WON their appeal about delivering these.... that's the point.

Tbh i think you miss the point though the pamphlets do not incite violence,racism or contain hate speech, if they did the authorities would have dragged the BNP into the courts and prosecuted them. (and we all know the authorities go through all of the literature from the BNP with a fine tooth comb looking for something to use as ammunition) and if these leaflets do not contain any of these things there is no reason to not distribute them.

Originally posted by solidshot

Tbh i think you miss the point though the pamphlets do not incite violence,racism or contain hate speech, if they did the authorities would have dragged the BNP into the courts and prosecuted them. (and we all know the authorities go through all of the literature from the BNP with a fine tooth comb looking for something to use as ammunition) and if these leaflets do not contain any of these things there is no reason to not distribute them.

I have missed no point.

They don't have to deliver them??

What else is there..?

that is the point of the thread and it's been decided that the workers, if they choose so, don't have to deliver them.... due to the "conscience clause"

What is it that I've missed?

Originally posted by blupblup

Yeah but they are recent..... i could find more if you like..

The point is you said none were arrested recently...so how is that NOT defending them...?

You don't KNOW that none have not been arrested recently.

Hmmmmm

Your definition of recent is different to mine, 2004 is not recent in politics. I was not defending blupblup, i was simply being fair. You see people like yourself cannot tell the difference between fair and defending. I don't like anyone twisting articles to fit their needs and manipulating facts. Those articles were old and you know it.

Let us also be clear here, i'm talking about leadership. There are many labour, conservative and liberal supporters who get arrested very often but we don't hear about them because they don't represent the party. I was making the point that the leadership have been careful recently to straddle that line of hate speech for the exact reason that they can post their hideous material to others.

Originally posted by blupblup
Uh.... you obviously missed the link in the OP that said these workers WON their appeal about delivering these.... that's the point.

The post office did a U-turn mate...

Job done

It would be exceedingly easy to argue that the post office caved upon public pressure and that the strike was costing money. I didn't miss a thing but i'm afraid you have in your passion over the subject. I'm as passionate as you about the BNP i can promise you, but i control it to look at things fairly.

Originally posted by blupblup

I'm against hate speech more than I'm in favour of free speech to be honest.

I don't believe I've really brought up the free speech debate, although others have...it's of little concern to me.

Actually your entire thread is about free speech whether you meant it to be or not. What do you consider hate speech? Because the definitions the government uses are quite loose. My definition is exceedingly simple, you can say whatever you like as long as you do not incite violence. That is the very essence of free speech. If you believe free speech is of little concern to you then why bother living in a free country? I find that slightly confusing.

Originally posted by blupblup

I have missed no point.

They don't have to deliver them??

What else is there..?

that is the point of the thread and it's been decided that the workers, if they choose so, don't have to deliver them.... due to the "conscience clause"

What is it that I've missed?

You've missed an abuse of the conscience clause. If they can do this then why can't other postman not deliver Labour leaflets? I mean if they were so utterly horrified by Labour that they refused to post the leaflets, then you would have to support that. After all, it's a conscience clause. You see the problem here? The possible abuse it could easily lead to?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
You've missed an abuse of the conscience clause. If they can do this then why can't other postman not deliver Labour leaflets? I mean if they were so utterly horrified by Labour that they refused to post the leaflets, then you would have to support that. After all, it's a conscience clause. You see the problem here? The possible abuse it could easily lead to?

I'm not going to keep going over this... as it serves no purpose.

many people have said "what if christians don't want to post muslim leaflets" and "what if tory postmen don't want to post labour leaflets"

It's not even remotely the same thing.


The BNP have their roots in Far-right, racist groups like the NF and others... they are a party of hate and intolerance....

To not post for the aforementioned reasons is petty.... to not post the BNP leaflets is a matter of principle and morality.

Blupblup, after our little back and fourth over U2U i think it can be said we're in agreement so i'm going to leave you to it. My final words are these.

I think one great thing can be taken from this story, and it is one i'm truly heartened to see. That the British public hate the BNP so much that they pressured the post office to the point that they caved. The post office was so scared of a backlash they simply couldn't afford it.

Whilst i think this was wrong in the sense of the public being unfair in regards to the law and even morally wrong in regards to free speech, at least we now know that the BNP getting a foothold in our country is unlikely, and that is very good news. I have feared they were gaining strength, but maybe the fear was baseless

EDIT

Oh and Blupblup, peace my brother

[edit on 21-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I think one great thing can be taken from this story, and it is one i'm truly heartened to see. That the British public hate the BNP so much that they pressured the post office to the point that they caved. The post office was so scared of a backlash they simply couldn't afford it.

Whilst i think this was wrong in the sense of the public being unfair in regards to the law and even morally wrong in regards to free speech, at least we now know that the BNP getting a foothold in our country is unlikely, and that is very good news. I have feared they were gaining strength, but maybe the fear was baseless

EDIT
Oh and Blupblup, peace my brother

[edit on 21-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

You too mate and i totally agree

Peace to you my friend.

Originally posted by chroot
Hi All..

Ive been reading this thread with interest as i once (several years ago now) used to be a driver for the Royal Mail.

I do agree that postal workers should not really be in a position where the mail can be policed however i think that the the CWU should not get involved with this as they could be seen to have a vested interest.

Im not sure if it has already been mentioned on here previous but the CWU (Communication Workers Union) who have stated that they are supporting this also supply funding to the Labour Party... wouldnt that be a conflict of interests

heres a link that mentions the CWU's funding of the Labour Party

www.examiner.co.uk... ns-86081-23013089/

Cheers all

[edit on 21/5/2009 by chroot]

Well, well , well.
I knew from the moment I first read this thread that is was a POLITICAL issue rather than a MORAL one.
That more or less seals it for me, regardless of what the O.P says or thinks.
Good find.
I can now unsubscribe from thread because it's been disinfo and deflection from the get go. Thanks for the proof.

Originally posted by blupblup

Say what you like mate..... China is in ASIA.

Yes I am aware China is in Asia, however, in Britain, the term "ASIAN" is meant mainly for those of a south asian origin (generally Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi origin). For instance, you could skip down the street with an Iranian man, this Iranian man may actually look like an indigenous white Britain and someone observing them would not class you as skipping with an Asian man.

It is best you try and avoid pedantry, you are not smart enough, and you make an even bigger fool out of yourself which is not a good idea, considering the clown hat you are wearing on this thread.

It is ignorant to say what he said... it's not about regional variations or interpretations of geography.... it is a FACT.

It is not "Ignorant" it is availing of the established terminology in Britain- I take no lectures from an oaf who defends one form of racism (and denies it is racism) and attacks another- that is a FACT (capital letters for effect)



[edit on 22-5-2009 by blueorder]

Originally posted by blupblup

I have missed no point.

They don't have to deliver them??

What else is there..?

that is the point of the thread and it's been decided that the workers, if they choose so, don't have to deliver them.... due to the "conscience clause"

What is it that I've missed?

You waffle about the police being "instituionally" racist, like a little sheep you just parrot erroneous terms by cowards and race baiters- yet you support the post office acting in a cowardly manner by agreeing to these post men refusing to deliver post- just a little sheep who cannot think for himself.

The Post Office, like most large ogranisations is corrupted by political correctness- it has the cancer of "diversity" (in the terms that is broached by liberal fascists) embedded to it's core.


Long runneth the fox, perhaps your fears (which they are) may be reasonable fears

Well a racist will always be a racist.... I'm not gonna change that fact by arguing with them online.

It's an exercise in futility to keep going round and round in circles debating what is racist and what isn't....and whether the BNP are racist or not.

The BNP are racist....if you vote for them.....knowing what they are about.... you too are a racist.

Good luck in the polls.


Peace

Originally posted by blupblup
The BNP are racist....if you vote for them.....knowing what they are about.... you too are a racist.

Good luck in the polls.


Peace

Sorry blupblup i gotta jump in again with this one small point. Not all BNP voters are racist. Some i'm afraid are ignorant of the party. They honestly believe they are just looking out for britain. I know that's really sad, but the BNP have played on peoples emotions about certain issues and presented themselves as resonable. Some people are just dissilusioned with the two main parties and are looking for any alternative.

We can't label all supporters of the BNP as racist, but i would argue that most are.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984



That's why i added the "knowing what they are about" clause...

I should have put... "knowing their history and knowing full well what they are about"

I should have been clearer.... not all are racist... some are ignorant, some naive and some just trying to stir up debate...

But MOST, knowing what this party stands for.... ARE racist.


Cheers

Originally posted by blupblup
But MOST, knowing what this party stands for.... ARE racist.


Cheers

Well agreed on that. I'm interested to see what will happen on the 4th of June, i desperately hope they don't get anyone into Europe. If anything else, imagine what that would do for our contries reputation!

reply to post by blupblup

We got one of their promos delivered at work today, like you say they are racist, I'd call them haters, they are the haters and they make me scared. These people are everywhere in UK.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Well agreed on that. I'm interested to see what will happen on the 4th of June, i desperately hope they don't get anyone into Europe. If anything else, imagine what that would do for our contries reputation!

I think i read somewhere that if they get 3 MEP seats.... that would be worth a massive chunk of cash to the party... not good at all.

I am interested to see where it goes too.... time will tell.


I live in a conservative area.... has been for so long man....i don't mind anyone getting in around here... so long as it's not BNP.