It's Official: Bush Admin Saw Iraq As Religious War

To the who cares its ancient history crowd...

IDIOTS.

Our men and women are still over there fighting, bleeding and dying... based on a pack of lies... a false bill of goods...

HOW DARE YOU DISCOUNT THE REASONS THAT THEY ARE OVER THERE WITH A WHO CARES!!!

reply to post by jerico65

What if it were a quote by Rommel? Or Napoleon? Or Giap?

Let's just cut to the chase -

What if it were a quote by Hitler or Goebbles ?

When I saw this on the news today, I was speechless.
One of the reasons to invade Iraq was summed up in this phrase I remember pre-war, "The road to Jerusalem lies through Baghdad."

To all those who say this is not a matter of Democrat or Republican, I must strongly disagree!!
We are in Iraq today, because the decades long Republican affiliation with and promotion of right wing conservative Christian ministers made it easier to manipulate their flocks (i.e.voters) to support the war, whether it be through "end times" prophecies or urging from pastors to support the President!

Google "end times ministries" and see how many you get. These are the religious fundamentalists, the Republican al Qaeda (base).
I remember Joel Rosenberg being interviewed on MSM about the war, as if he were a disinterested party. I remember comments from John Hagee. Pat Robertson. Jerry Falwell.
If you want to invade Iraq, no better group to have on your side!!

The problem is, in the end, the sick joke is that the great nation of the United States of America is looking more like it is seeing its end times!
Despite all the prophecies of the John Birch Society and conservative religion moralists, the downfall of this nation came not from Communism or abortion or gays. The downfall was good old American greed!

Whether you want to bring political figures to justice, or you want to "get past it", the bigger question is, what do we do in the future to not go down this road again.

reply to post by grover


I think most people don't care what's on the cover sheets. It's a quote, nothing more.

How come no one seems to get all irate when video from insurgents have them chanting "Allah Akbar"? Seems that they are fighting this as a religious war.

Originally posted by visible_villain
Let's just cut to the chase -

What if it were a quote by Hitler or Goebbles ?

Well, I have that hunch again that a quote by Hitler or Goebbels wouldn't be used on a US military cover sheet it that instance.

Well, I thought maybe this would be a 'lively' thread - and I was not wrong.

Personally, I feel very badly about the immense tragedy the Iraqi invasion and occupation has become for all of us, both as individuals, either directly or indirectly, and as a nation.

We are all responsible for it, and we will all suffer the consequenses both now and in the times to come.

Continuing to buy the lies and deception can only make it worse.

Isn't enough enough ?

Anyways, thanks all for contributing - and good luck to one and all.

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by jd140

 

Yeah million dead iraqis! thousands of troops killed woot! no sweat off my back! Really did you mistype what you actually meant to say or are you that callous and detached from the suffering of millions of human beings this war has caused and will continue to cause down the generations?

I think what jd140 said, is typical of those who see the red herring in this thread just as blatantly obvious as the perceptive memory shock sees it.

I concur, not one post in this thread is going to bring one dead Iraqi back nor will it bring any Americans back and the last thing t is going to do is end it sooner by bitching about an ex-president. We get it ok Bush was a BAD MAN.

Bad Bush, Bad!

There, ya feel affirmed? empowered? It was eight years we all can get past as soon as we get past.

the past

Originally posted by grover
To the who cares its ancient history crowd...

IDIOTS.

Our men and women are still over there fighting, bleeding and dying... based on a pack of lies... a false bill of goods...

HOW DARE YOU DISCOUNT THE REASONS THAT THEY ARE OVER THERE WITH A WHO CARES!!!

Grover, get real would ya. It isn't the war or the soldiers everyone is dissing, it is this asinine idea for trying to turn this into a jihad of GWB's when George Bush didn't give a rats ass about the Church as Keith Olberman proved catching him calling Christians who wanted their faith based initiatives funding, "whacked out Christians". To this day NOT ONE Church ever got a dime from that legislation but they sure got a lot of complimentary White House Pens and Stationery.

The point is, bashing bush is old and tired and in this particular thread, it is a rant predicated on an opinion based on a BS cover which means absolutley nothing. Just because we don't want to join the pity party for the die hard bush bashing barnstormers who haven't got enough hatred for religion and republicans off their chest yet doesn't mean we have a callous attitude for the troops still there and YOU KNOW IT.

Originally posted by Con Science
To this day NOT ONE Church ever got a dime...

Church/religious ministries did

COMPASSION CAPITAL FUND GRANT RECIPIENTS

NATIONAL RESOURCE CENTER GRANT

Dare Mighty Things - VA - $2,200,000

EVALUATION GRANT

Branch Associates - PA - $1,350,000

DEMONSTRATION GRANTS

United Way of Massachusetts Bay - MA - $ 2,000,000
JVA Consulting, Inc. - CO - $ 1,008,547
Christian Community Health Fellowship - IL - $ 1,128,330
The National Center for Faith Based Initiative - FL - $ 700,000
Montana Office of Rural Health - MT - $ 614,555
Associated Black Charities, Inc. - MD - $ 1,500,000
Clemson University - SC - $ 1,033,341
Southeast Asia Resource Action Center - DC - $ 682,240
Community Technology Centers' Network (CTCNET) - MA - $ 1,499,770
Emory University - GA - $ 1,499,999
Operation Blessing International - VA - $ 500,000
Mennonite Economic Development Associates - PA - $ 1,000,000
Nueva Esperanza, Inc. - PA - $ 2,466,406
University of Nebraska - NE - $ 1,160,742
CJH Educational Grant Services, Inc. - NC - $ 1,506,987
Institute for Youth Development - VA - $ 2,500,000
Catholic Charities of Central New Mexico - NM - $ 1,000,000
Northside Ministerial Alliance - MI - $ 1,000,000
Volunteers of America, Inc. - VA - $ 699,159
University of Hawaii - HI - $ 600,000
S.V.D.P. Management, Inc. CA $ 673,041
TOTAL $ 24,773,117

RESEARCH GRANTS

Caliber Associates - VA - $ 236,633
Florida International University - FL - $ 210,622
University of Pennsylvania - PA - $ 193,456
University of Maryland, College Park - MD - $ 218,098
TOTAL $ 858,809

source

No, I'm not in the military. Nor have I ever been. I'm getting a bit sick of your "I'm better than you because I was in the military" attitude. You think I'm a bad person for calling the terrorists "diaper heads?" You've actually joined up to go kill them, so you're in no place to talk.

Whether you buy into the whole "religious war" thing or not doesn't change the fact that when people say "who cares?" they lose the right to call themselves human. Humans care about humans.

Nobody's complaining about the other side making this a religious war because the other side isn't the topic here. YOUR side is the topic, Mr. Proud Soldier.

Originally posted by grover
To the who cares its ancient history crowd...

IDIOTS.

Our men and women are still over there fighting, bleeding and dying... based on a pack of lies... a false bill of goods...

HOW DARE YOU DISCOUNT THE REASONS THAT THEY ARE OVER THERE WITH A WHO CARES!!!

Yep I have been there twice and have had a few buddies killed or injured. I know what is happening there.

I still say.

Who cares what is put on a stupid cover sheet.

These Bush bash threads are very old. I'm more interested in what is going to happen to my fellow soldiers today then what happened yesterday.

Next time you use the soldiers as a platform for your Bush bashing, please exclude me. I don't need you using me for your arguements.

Originally posted by jd140

These Bush bash threads are very old. I'm more interested in what is going to happen to my fellow soldiers today then what happened yesterday.

Next time you use the soldiers as a platform for your Bush bashing, please exclude me. I don't need you using me for your arguements.

I really hate how any legitimate criticism of Bush turns into "bush-bashing".

It's just like how democrats whine when you criticize Obama, they say you're "racist", or "obama-bashing".

Don't you see how hypocritical it is to discount criticism of one body of government, when you yourself criticize another?

All politicians should be open to scrutiny; past and present. In this case it is the very recent past and it is still affecting us today. Our men and women are still dying overseas, Iraqi citizens are still dying, terrorism has been on the rise, and international opinion of the U.S. is down all because of the past administration. What is happening to your fellow soldiers today is because of Bush's decision to launch us into an illegal war.

Some of us believe that our troops are being unfairly used in a war that was either waged for personal, economic or religious reasons (a.k.a all of the wrong ones). Some feel that our military should be used strictly for national defense, and not as a gestapo-esque world police force. While I won't show disrespect towards you or any of the other soldiers for your sacrifices for our country, I will most certainly show disrespect for the administration that decided you should fight in an unjust war, violate human rights and serve the interests of corporations instead of the American people.

reply to post by drwizardphd


Bush did this, Bush did that.


Unless W was the only President in US history to have complete and total power(dictator), then I can't blame him for everything.

Yes it is Bush bashing.

And it is the most popular sport on ATS followed closely by Religion bashing.

Edit to add-

Next time you feel the need to use the soldiers as a platform for your Bush bashing, please exclude me. I don't need you using me for your arguements.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by jd140]

Originally posted by jd140

Unless W was the only President in US history to have complete and total power(dictator), then I can't blame him for everything.

Yes it is Bush bashing.

This doesn't really make any sense. Bush was not a dictator. He stated publicly that he wanted to be, but that is beside the point. Dictator or not, he still (as acting commander-in-chief) was responsible for initiating the Iraq conflict. Therefore you can blame him for that, as he was in charge of making that decision, as commander-in-chief of our military.

If you want to call it Bush-bashing then fine. Just don't show up on Obama threads and criticize him, or any other politician for that matter, unless you like to consider yourself a hypocrite. I will call you out on it if I see it.

Originally posted by jd140

Next time you feel the need to use the soldiers as a platform for your Bush bashing, please exclude me. I don't need you using me for your arguements.

I don't understand, I didn't use you. In fact I specifically stated that I held no grudge against you or any of our soldiers, and instead hold blame to the administration that got us into this war. I don't know your name, your rank, when you served or even if you served, so there is no way I could use you specifically as a "platform for [my] Bush bashing".

I have friends who fought in this war, friends who are currently fighting in this war, and friends who are planning to fight in this war. It is they who I care about, because they deserve to perform an honorable service for their country, and not be pawns in an international game.

reply to post by drwizardphd


When you use the soldiers as a platform for your dislike of the Iraqi war, please exclude me. As I am a soldier,Active for 9 years a Reservist now for personel reasons. I don't want to be lumped in there with those you claim to be fighting the good fight for.

A little secret.

Most soldiers understand that the reason for the war was wrong. Most still understand the good we have done over there, thats why instead of opting out when their contract is up they stay in.

Also, you will see me critisize those who are in office,if they deserve it, be it in Congress or the Presidents administration. The reason being is that they are in office. They are the ones who are making policies right now that affect you and me. If they choose to continue policy set by previous administrations and I don't agree with them, I won't blame them, I will blame the administration that is currently using them.

Whats done is done. I'm not going to cry about the past.

Seems that General Shaffer was the one that personilized his cover sheets that have everyone in an uproar.

Rumsfeild got the fax from General Shaffer and hand delivered it to Bush. So are we still going to continue to shoot the messenger?

www.foxnews.com...

reply to post by jerico65

Ohhh there are, if you have not noticed every week there is a new "Muslims push beliefs on us" thread, and not even about extremists, but about civilians. I think it is that Muslim extremists have been around forever and people do not need to point the finger anymore, everyone knows they exist, everyone knows they're crazy, so it is pointless to call them out on using religion as a excuse.
But the problem here is that us Western people think we separate church and policy. And this is proof that we do not. Its not something to fuss over in itself but when you add the Bush 'chosen by God' speech and support of many Christians for the war (I have many close friends who did) it is kind of suspicious. But it is not 'the' motivation, if anything just one part of many motivation to go to war in Iraq.
Like I said it is not a smoking gun, it is like if an atheist quoted the Bible, there is much wisdom and anyone can use it. Just as you do not need to be Muslim to quote the Quran, Jewish to quote the Torah, Buddhist to quote Buddha, Hindu to quote... whatever they use.
People will just use whatever works

I wouldn't rush to take it on face value. Motivating people with a common belief is being done all the time. What the real motivations of the handlers are can be quite different.

Most unfortunately there's now nothing explicitly illegal concerning an American President/Executive Branch waging war while under the influence of religion, but eventually, after all the (secrecy-based) political and religious # is cleansed or purged, such primitively psychotic and/or psychopathic motivation will be patently, or screamingly, illegal. Consider that a valid prediction. It's just a matter of how long and what specifically it will take to get there.

Originally posted by jerico65

And your point is????

I fight so civilians don't have to...

So many may think that the US army fought civilians (in other countries) so rich men get richer.

Do you really believe that islamic hordes were on the verge to come and kill people in the US?
Even if we pretend that 911 was done by muslim terrorists, for 3000 Americans killed, how many iraquians (sp?) and afghans? Is this even remotely looking like Justice and Civilization?

I can believe that you have faith in your precedent government and feel righteous. But is it so hard to imagine that maybe you have been duped?

I don't know you, I have nothing against you personally.

cheers.

TheTilde