Jehovah's Witnesses Christian or Cult?

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by dthwraith

 

"False Prophets".....sorry, but although this is a favorite one to bring up among JW's haters, it's without grounds, and an argument supported by cherry picked quotes from literature, without giving the whole context. It really is a tired and played out argument, but anyway... here we go:

EDITED to remove external source and add link to external source for my response to the "false prophet" accusation:

Are Jehovah's Witnesses "false prophets"?


[edit on 15-5-2009 by holywar]

Now that was a good read!!!! And makes alot of sence and by far gives a greater understanding!!!

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


Great post and I enjoyed reading it, Thanks for taking the time to post it. See now that everyone has stoped worring about my motives this thread has cleaned it's self right up and is clearing alot of common misconseption's. "Forgive the typos."

reply to post by miriam0566


I don't know if its the going door to door that people hate, it's more the fact they won't go away. Let me give you a example from experience. Speaking for myself here wonce I say I'm a born again christian, the confo should end there but it doesn't. They then ask what I beleive in, I say father, son, holy spirit. They procede to jam the trinity down my throat. This ticks me off to no end even more so since I've been very nice up till that point.

Or if I say I'm not in the mood to talk right now they percist in tring to make me. This inturn invokes anger towards them. If someone says no thank you then please go away, it's just rude otherwise and people interpet it badly.

And please keep in mind JW's arent hated alone so are every other sec of christianty right now. There have been many times that I've felt if I said I was a christian that the person would turn on me and beat me to death with a bat. Want a fast glance just to see how much we are hated? Just stop by youtube, and read a few comments.

Ok moving on to the next.

Salvation . JWs claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one's dedication -- in other words, salvation is a reward for good works. (JWs are expected to spend five hours per week in door-to-door visitation and witnessing, are responsible for selling twelve subscriptions to The Watchtower magazine each month, and are responsible for conducting a "Bible study" each month in the homes of their converts.) According to JW theology, a person has one of three possible destinies. The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth. Both of these classifications are determined to a great extent on membership in the Watchtower organization as well as going door-to-door spreading the message of the Watchtower. Those people who are not members of the Watchtower organization will be destroyed by Jehovah God and cease to exist. There is no concept of eternal punishment or hell in Watchtower theology (Let God Be True, pp. 90-95, 289). They also believe that men will have a second chance, after death, to be saved.

A great many christians think your nuts by this fact alone, being that I'm not home right now I don't have my Bible with me so I can't dig into this, but please feel free to comment as you see fit.

"Who are the 144,000?"

Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Now I was able to figure this out before I ever set foot in a church, let alone spoke to anyone about the Bible. I personaly dont agree with the JW teaching on this by any means. Can you please clear this up? Or is this just something we have to agree to disagree on?

I'm not taking any sides, but i do believe that they were a very close combination of the two, possibly leaning closer to the Christian side.

Let's remember the JW's during the Nazi Germany period in Germany itself. They were the most dedicated and resilient deniers of the regime, even when the Catholic church fell on its knees to Hitler.

Here is the question, did Satan change God's original purpose for the earth and humanity?
Or did his tactics merely delay it?

For example in a court case if somebody admits they are guilty and pleads guilty as charged the case moves very quickly to the judgment phase where the judge passes sentence. But if they say not guilty and try to defend and justify their case it takes much longer.

God's justice is so powerful and perfect that he himself cannot escape it because he is a perfect being, thus the ultimate price of Justice paid with the death of his only son Jesus, to save mankind. It boggles the mind when you really think about it.

Now when Satan challenged God in the garden of Eden, he said give me time to make my case in defense of myself, God knew he was wrong and guilty and his case was baseless and without merit, BUT the angels on the other hand did not, that's why some fell and became Demons. This court case has been going on for about 6000 years, but it's only like 6 days to God, he will wrap it up by the end of HIS week.

God does not not need unlimited numbers of humans dieing and becoming angels, he will replenish the ranks with a limited number of humans that he feels are worthy of that prize, the recruitment for these ones began as soon as Jesus was resurrected, not before. Thousands from 33 CE until now have been chosen, not all were Jehovah's Witness's, so this is not exclusive to them.
Many were Jews from the first century, others were gentiles, only God knows who they are. Did you know that even some within the ranks of Jehovah's Witness's that claim to go to heaven won't be going. That group is super small to begin with now anyway.

I don't claim to know who they are, although I am sure those apostles and disciples of Christ mentioned in the bible that died faithful are in heaven right now. Beyond that we have no solid idea.

The vast majority (99%) of humanity that lived and died will be coming back to this earth, of all religious faith's. So when people say they think Jehovah's Witness say they are the only ones, they don't take into account the billions of people that aren't, and God will bring them back to life anyway.

My hope is to live on the earth in paradise like the bible teaches, I am not going to heaven, that is not my destiny.

And I will further add that for ANYBODY this includes JW's to say they are going to heaven as a fresh new hope in 2009 is highly presumptuous and very doubtful at this point.

reply to post by dthwraith


I think, if you were to read the scriptures cited in the quote you posted, you would see that the 144,000 are to be rulers and kings, uh, over what? Nothing? Are the meek not supposed to inherit the Earth? Was God's original purpose not for us to inhabit the Earth and fill it? When did that change?
In Revelations and other prophetic(in the meaning of forteling) text, numbers that are repeated are seen by many as being literal, 144,000 is mentioned many times, as well as "a great crowd" (written as two seperate classes). Who are the great crowd? What is their inheritance?
I myself try to be meek...and would not assume that just because I have put my faith in Jesus and recognize his authority is through his father Jehovah, that I am entitled to be one of an unlimited number of rulers of a kindom that rules... what? The scriptures you have cited in your quote...

oh wait first of all please don't reply "I just quoted it I didn't write the source" in your response... if you are not willing to post you veiwpoints (you did for the first time give us a hint, but I don't think you really agree with what you are quoting either) then we the audience can only assume you are willing to back them up...I guess I am confused. Is it that you found some anti-witness material and just want it systematically debunked? Then again...the title of this thread is misleading...and the Mods outta get ya!!!


PS the JW book that was quoted was last revised in 1952...

reply to post by dthwraith


I can't make up my mind if you are sincere in your search for understanding of what Witnesses teach, or are just baiting with propaganda. Christian or Cult....new thread please title it uh, Debunking false beliefs of what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

But, it is late for me, and I are tired, have plans for the weekend, but do look forward to how this thread progresses over the next couple days.

Peace, and think about going to the convention you have been invited to (did you check the link I gave you?), it should seem wierd to be around so many smiling people while they are listening to sermons being given about end time signs and critical times hard to deal with the great tribulation coming soon as they look toward to the day of Jehovah, but recognize most of those poeple look forward to living on a paradise Earth forever and achieving perfection under Christs (and his kings) rule, just as mankind has been promised since way back when he threw it away in the garden of Eden.
JW's look forward to God's Kindome here on Earth...His original intent has yet to be realized...

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

Originally posted by dthwraith I've pointed out about my on going email debate about this subject. Well they are here reading these posts, keep that in mind while your responding.

im sorry, i dont understand what you mean by this

Originally posted by dthwraith
I don't know if its the going door to door that people hate, it's more the fact they won't go away.

their persistence is kind of a 2 edge sword.

they have the belief that not all christian sects are acceptable to god.

matt 7:[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

note that its specifically referring to people who call jesus "lord, lord" so these are christians. but then the verse talks about obedience to god.

go back to the Israelites for a moment. what happened to them. when they did "just so" they prospered, when they added of religious practices like baal worship, they suffered.

christians have certain obligations. the most common law is to love one another (john 13:34). but most christians ignore the command to preach (matt 28:19,20). they ignore the truth (john 4:24)

so the real question is, why would god tell his disciples to preach?

jonah is a great example of what benefit preaching can do. jonah although reluctant, preached to nineveh and the people repented. because of this, god saw no reason to destroy the city at that time.

there is a similiar situation in the world today. god's patience for this world is running out, so it actually makes sense that he would send out people to gather those who are "moaning and groaning" (matt 13:24-30, 36-41), people who would welcome god's "new earth"

i rabbled all this so that you could get perspective. JW's view the preaching work very seriously. it not about inflating numbers, its about saving lives. if you found yourself drowning in a river, would you want to be rescued by a person who was going about it halfhearted?

i agree through that they should be more conscience of objection, but i understand their persistance

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

Christian or Cult....new thread please title it uh, Debunking false beliefs of what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

I thought it was clear that we had moved on from the cult part from the responces and me moving to the next topic of false prophets. From false prophets we moved to false doctrine where we are now. Wonce we clear false doctrine by debunking we will either proved JW christians or not. The thread title is right on the money.

Where I stand is what I think others want to know. I thought you where a cult not a good cult or how a cult is comonly defined, but a bad cult as in a bunh of psycos. I no longer think that. Concerning false prophets never knew anything about that until it was shown to me, but that was cleared up.

(did you check the link I gave you?),

No I thought I did, but I just looked back, I only went to holywars link. I will first thing tomarow, erm it is already I will in the PM.

I can't make up my mind if you are sincere in your search for understanding of what Witnesses teach, or are just baiting with propaganda.

I've responded to this enough I think. Did you even see where I said "Great post and I enjoyed reading it, Thanks for taking the time to post it. See now that everyone has stoped worring about my motives this thread has cleaned it's self right up and is clearing alot of common misconseption's. "Forgive the typos." Considering I was talking to you. Its propaganda to you but not to others. Do you even realize how many people beleive this way? I don't think you do or you wouldn't have asked that.

(you did for the first time give us a hint, but I don't think you really agree with what you are quoting either)

I don't agree with most of the JW views on the above scriptures, reason being I learned the same thing with out ever entering into a church. Odd how I can learn the same church views on the same scriptures with never being told their views on those scriptures. To me thats a very strong case and its set in stone in my mind. Good thing is that doesn't really matter. Now even though that maybe the case I still would like to know your views on them, but honestly you guys are starting to make me feel weird for wanting to know. Like I'm not welcome to know your views. I could be way off on that and I prolly am, but it feels that by some of the responces.

then we the audience can only assume you are willing to back them up..

I would use the same scriptures to back them up that where quoted, I'm not going to pull up fake ones that have nothing to do with the 144,000.

it should seem wierd to be around so many smiling people while they are listening to sermons being given about end time signs and critical times hard to deal with the great tribulation coming soon

Why would that be weird? Christians around the world are smiling about the same thing and their not even JW's. I think every sec of christianty knows where pretty darn close. All eyes on Isreal.

Is it that you found some anti-witness material and just want it systematically debunked?

I never found it, it was given to me I never cared until it was showed to me. Wonce it was showed to me people just thought I'd except it and move on. Surprise I didn't came here and posted.

PS the JW book that was quoted was last revised in 1952...

I find that funny. Think maybe the should update their site

I think, if you were to read the scriptures cited in the quote you posted, you would see that the 144,000 are to be rulers and kings, uh, over what? Nothing? Are the meek not supposed to inherit the Earth? Was God's original purpose not for us to inhabit the Earth and fill it? When did that change?
In Revelations and other prophetic(in the meaning of forteling) text, numbers that are repeated are seen by many as being literal, 144,000 is mentioned many times, as well as "a great crowd" (written as two seperate classes). Who are the great crowd? What is their inheritance?

See now if you beleive in the pre-trib rapture your views on this would be completly different. Those in the rapture are judges, over what? Those left on the Earth after the trib for the millenium. After that who knows what we do Bible doesn's say, I'm sure we wont be bored though. If you want to hear more on our views I can back that up with scripture. But thats for a diff thread and its 3:30am.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by dthwraith]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by dthwraith I've pointed out about my on going email debate about this subject. Well they are here reading these posts, keep that in mind while your responding.

im sorry, i dont understand what you mean by this

It's back on pg 1.

Originally posted by dthwraith
Salvation . JWs claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one's dedication -- in other words, salvation is a reward for good works.

that statement is not completely true.

there are several seeming contradictions when it comes to salvation in the bible.

1- you cant earn salvation. (titus 3:5; eph 2:1-8

but, 2- you cant be saved without obedience (heb 5:8,9)

this has created groups that take polar sides of the arguments, catholics lean towards works, baptists mor towards grace.

but if you really meditate, you realize its both. but this only works if you look at it a certain way. jesus provided that illustration.

matt 22:[2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
[3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

the illustration continues to verse 14

but its interesting that a marriage feast would be used as an illustration.

first we have those who "were bidden" or invited. most people do not charge money for invitations to their weddings (never met someone who did). this invitation is "free" (eph 2:1-8) so its offered to anyone willing to accept it. this is god's side of the equation.

but then we have people who were invited and they didnt come. this means that some people are given this gift of god, but they dont take advantage of it. this is were gal 5:6 and james 2:24 come into play. logically, if you were invited to a wedding, you have to take some sort of action to attend. its also expected that you would respect certain decorum for the occasion. this is why matt 22:14 says "For many are called, but few are chosen."

does this mean that any christian who feels that obedience is a necessary part of salvation is an advocated for "salvation by good works"? no.

because noone is physically capable of being obedient perfectly. (rom 5:12)

to what extent of obedience does god require of us if we cant serve him perfectly?

mal 1:[8] And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

israelites were to offer their firstfruits, their best to god. we too are obligated to do our best to god. this means a different level for everyone. but you would be surpised how far your best really goes.

so do JW's claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one's dedication? yes

does this mean they believe in salvation by works? no.

(JWs are expected to spend five hours per week in door-to-door visitation and witnessing,

nope. while they are encouraged to meet the national average, in spain thats i think 9 hours a month, they are not "expected" to.

are responsible for selling twelve subscriptions to The Watchtower magazine each month,

i go out in service on saturdays, i have never sold any publication. i have never seen anyone else sell a publication. and i have never heard of anyone getting a "subscription"

we do however accept donations, but ive never seen anyone ask to make one.

and are responsible for conducting a "Bible study" each month in the homes of their converts.)

i dont have a bible study, am i in trouble?

According to JW theology, a person has one of three possible destinies. The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth. Both of these classifications are determined to a great extent on membership in the Watchtower organization as well as going door-to-door spreading the message of the Watchtower. Those people who are not members of the Watchtower organization will be destroyed by Jehovah God and cease to exist. There is no concept of eternal punishment or hell in Watchtower theology (Let God Be True, pp. 90-95, 289). They also believe that men will have a second chance, after death, to be saved.

sounds about right because thats what the scriptures say as well. god's disciples are 2 "folds", heavenly and earthly, and opposers of god get destroyed

can someone please tell me how to post videos here.... every time I try, it does not work. I have a few videos I would like post.

Thanks!

I will be responding later today on the 144,000 deal.

Here is my response on....

FAITH? WORKS? OR BOTH?

reply to post by dthwraith



Although this thread is ALL ABOUT the JW's and what we believe, (which in a way helps our cause, so thanks) but I am curios on what is your biblical understanding about the whole heaven and earth thing. Do you feel you'll go to heaven? Live on earth? and why?

reply to post by holywar

Although this thread is ALL ABOUT the JW's and what we believe, (which in a way helps our cause, so thanks)

I was gonna bill you, but after all the work miriam has done she may bill me! So will just call it even

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by dthwraith

 

Although this thread is ALL ABOUT the JW's and what we believe, (which in a way helps our cause, so thanks) but I am curios on what is your biblical understanding about the whole heaven and earth thing. Do you feel you'll go to heaven? Live on earth? and why?

Not in this post cause we will spin way off topic, but I'll be happy to start another post when we are done here. But if you beat me to death with YOUR view point you'll just undue all the hard work that everyone has done here.

never mind... :bnghd:

[edit on 16-5-2009 by holywar]