Put away your crosses already

reply to post by justamomma


Jesus is a jew and died on a roman cross for jews and gentiles.Actually he died for the sins of the world past present and future.It is all about love

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia

 

The problem has nothing directly to do with any brand of Christianity. It is the fact that you are putting the importance in defending a brand of Christianity rather than focusing on what is important that is.

OK, I will go with that right now. This is what I think is important and it is from Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This is a description of the three angel's message. It is told this way to make a point that this is an important message, sent from God and delivered to us by mighty angels to be declared to the world. It starts out saying, "Praise God."
You made a point to me earlier:

Maybe you should spend less time praising Jesus and trying to look like you are of him with fancy avatars and such, and more time gaining understanding?

I spend a lot of energy trying to find out how you can do that, exactly. (to praise God) What I have gained so far as an understanding of this is that by praising Jesus, we are praising God because he stands as the representation of God to the extent that when we see Jesus, we are seeing God. This is not a hollow shell of a form of God but an active spiritual existence that dates back before knowable time.
There is no other way, given to man, to understand the Father, but through the Son. We have something handed down to us (knowledge of Jesus) through a spiritual church that God has preserved through history. That is not the same as the earthly corporation calling itself the one true church. That is actually Babylon and we need to get out of that organization or system.
One of the things that make it Babylon is that they create a mystery surrounding the death of Christ. They make it something that they own and have the power to hold in their hands and dispense as they see fit.
So my "brand" of religion is the belief in the free gift that is available to everyone without the mediation of any human agency.
The only requirement is the ceremony of baptism, which is the sign that you need to be cleansed to be fit to join the congregation of the saints.

Just the general hogwash of christianity I'm sorry to say. I will only say this much.

How can something be called a "free gift" if one must do things to get it? If you don't "accept" Jesus and all that stuff, can you still get the gift? If not, then it's not a free gift.

It's about like someone trying to give me a "free cruise", and then if you do it, then you have to listen to all these people parade products around and do all these other things. At which point, it's no longer free.

As a matter of fact, it reminds me of an old telemarketing job I once had. We would call people and give them a "free pager"(back in the 90's lol). But of course, they would only be given the "pager" for free, they would have to spend like $50 to activate it, and then pay for the service. And on my 2nd day on the job, they would no longer allow people to say "free" in the pitch because of legal reasons. IE: It is not actually free.

So just because you call something free, it hardly means it is free.

And once again, why does Jesus lie to the rich man? Why doesn't he just tell the rich man to "wait for his free gift"?

All you have done is repeat what you have been told. You have 0 understanding and when pressed it becomes obvious.

Furthermore, the original text does not say "Fear the lord" in the OT. It says RESPECT.

But you do not give him respect, you accept the authority of men, rather than his authority.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

as Braveheart once said, via hollywood.." Freedom"
I was chatting to some young people the other day...and they were embracing freedom. They felt free to express their sexuality, free to accept their homosexuality, and one accepted his bisexuality. The conversation was for me liberating as I have been brainwashed directly and indirectly by social constructs of the virgin wedding night, the concept that two or more partners makes one sluttish, the construct that one must be hetrosexual, and if not...doom will befall the pervert...sluggish mental attitudes that perverted sexuality...thanks to religion of all types.

I embraced the youthful attitudes of freedom and the liberation they expressed with their personal empowerment of sexuality. Good on them. I so dont believe that the God of my understanding will condemm any of these beautiful people because they prefer same sex relationships.

I love my God who loves the created ones, the children of my Father/Mother, my God. The ten commandments says nothing about homosexuality or virginity...dont kill. dont play up (adultry), dont formicate...whats that...be like some animals and have heaps of random sex not based on love, Love God, love your neighbours etc.

So much of our society is based on Christian perversion, and no offence to the writer Paul but Paul was one anal retentive, hung up sexually strung out fella who really did not write about women with respect or embrace freedom which in my opinion was one of Christs biggest messages..be free of traditional crap that binds people to self imprisonment and fear

Freedom

reply to post by badmedia

And once again, why does Jesus lie to the rich man? Why doesn't he just tell the rich man to "wait for his free gift"?

Would you rather that people lied? Not sure what you want. Jesus was trying not to be harsh to the man. When he asked Jesus what he could do to have eternal life, Jesus could have said, "Go away, it is not something for you."
Instead he pointed out that the man was being prevented from it by his unwillingness to give up what he cherished in this life.The rich man who came to Jesus for advice had the gold of Babylon. The eternal life of the promise has gold as pavement.
The freedom of the Gospel is to do what is right, not because you have to do it to gain salvation, but out of thankfulness. Jesus did what was necessary for salvation and it is recognized by God as being applied to us. We do not have to go on some great quest to unlock the secret of the universe to gain the special prize. It has already been done for us.
Respect is what the passage from Revelation is about. On one side is the Great God who created everything. On the other side is someone who just moved into that created world and demands worship for no other reason than that he wants it. God is very clear about what he wants in the way of showing Him respect. It is in the Book of Exodus. God made the earth in six days and on the seventh day, he rested. He sanctified that day as an eternal memorial to creation. In recognition to God as being worthy of respect, we follow the example of resting on that day.
As for following man, The Pope published papers and made speeches about his goals for his papacy. Right on top is having every country pass laws for a mandatory day of rest. The problem with that is that it is a anti-sabbath and not the original Sabbath from God. The Catholic Church instituted Sunday to replace Saturday as a day of rest. They hold up the fact that they made this change, as proof of their authority. It seems like they can get away with doing this because God does not instantly strike them down. Revelation tells us that it will soon catch up with them and whoever stands with them in Babylon will get the same punishment that is in store for Babylon.
On one side God says do one thing and on the other side man says do this other thing. They are at odds with each other. God can offer eternal life, man can offer temporary pleasure, then eternal damnation.
Blindly following someone who claims to be godly can be the road to hell. So, you have to be careful about where you put your elegance, and it better be directly with God through his Son, who has been given the power to take us with him.


[edit on 12-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Would you rather that people lied? Not sure what you want. Jesus was trying not to be harsh to the man. When he asked Jesus what he could do to have eternal life, Jesus could have said, "Go away, it is not something for you."
Instead he pointed out that the man was being prevented from it by his unwillingness to give up what he cherished in this life.The rich man who came to Jesus for advice had the gold of Babylon. The eternal life of the promise has gold as pavement.

So is it predetermined, or is this a thing which prevented it? Why does Jesus say to everyone after that it is easier to get a camel through a needles eye, then a rich man into heaven?

As well, if the man had to give away all his possessions, then how can this still be a free gift? And why doesn't the church require people to give away all their possessions as well? Not a good selling point? Sounds like a bad infomercial.

The freedom of the Gospel is to do what is right, not because you have to do it to gain salvation, but out of thankfulness. Jesus did what was necessary for salvation and it is recognized by God as being applied to us. We do not have to go on some great quest to unlock the secret of the universe to gain the special prize. It has already been done for us.

It's not "free". One is free to make a choice in either direction, and if that choice is not allowed, then it is not free. However, it is wisdom to make the correct choices, and wisdom is gained by knowledge, experiences and understanding, which allows one to make the correct choice. And as I keep pointing out to you, it is no coincidence that this is what the father gives. These are also the only things that are seen as riches in the eyes of god.

Jesus is an example of the way to come by such wisdom, and an example of someone applying that wisdom gained. Thus all that he does, those who truly believe will also do. So there is are things one must and will do. Is it coincidence that all the men who are have been wise generally act in the same manner as Jesus? NO.

What you do is try to brand and monopolize an expression of the wisdom, and people do it for power on earth. Just as you mentioned before, on this planet it is all about power. You accuse the RCC of wanting to take your churches power and so forth. But you fail to realize you are still merely fighting for power and authority on earth, not for the wisdom and so forth you claim to be selling. It's freaking disgusting.

You should check out the movie "The Big Kahuna". Quit selling religion, and instead focus on gaining wisdom and sharing the understandings that wisdom brings with others. Then you will start to hear Jesus.

Respect is what the passage from Revelation is about. On one side is the Great God who created everything. On the other side is someone who just moved into that created world and demands worship for no other reason than that he wants it. God is very clear about what he wants in the way of showing Him respect. It is in the Book of Exodus. God made the earth in six days and on the seventh day, he rested. He sanctified that day as an eternal memorial to creation. In recognition to God as being worthy of respect, we follow the example of resting on that day.

Traditions of men, and again this is even something Jesus talks about directly. Does he not work on the Sabbath? Oh yeah, and talks about traditions of men. And here you are yourself promoting those traditions of men. Same kinds of things Jesus went against, and you say you are of him.

As for following man, The Pope published papers and made speeches about his goals for his papacy. Right on top is having every country pass laws for a mandatory day of rest. The problem with that is that it is a anti-sabbath and not the original Sabbath from God. The Catholic Church instituted Sunday to replace Saturday as a day of rest. They hold up the fact that they made this change, as proof of their authority. It seems like they can get away with doing this because God does not instantly strike them down. Revelation tells us that it will soon catch up with them and whoever stands with them in Babylon will get the same punishment that is in store for Babylon.
On one side God says do one thing and on the other side man says do this other thing. They are at odds with each other. God can offer eternal life, man can offer temporary pleasure, then eternal damnation.
Blindly following someone who claims to be godly can be the road to hell. So, you have to be careful about where you put your elegance, and it better be directly with God through his Son, who has been given the power to take us with him.

Man vs Man. Both claim to be on "God's side", both are just hypocrites.

You are a pretty lost soul.

Look, I'm going to quote Jesus and pretty much close any debate on this. You are to do what Jesus says, not what Paul says. You can't have 2 masters, you had better learn to choose wisely. You say you don't have to do anything, and it's all free, but you just listen to paul, not to Jesus. I have already refered you to this chapter once, but apparently it didn't get read.

Matthew 7

Matthew 7

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

You do many things in the name of Jesus, but you do them in sin. Jesus says DIRECTLY that you are to do what he says PERIOD. If you don't do them, then you are a fool. It's plain as day in English for you. If you are wise, then you will make the correct choices and that would be doing what he says.

So once again, I will ask for you to stop focusing on brands and religion, and start focusing on what is important. Wisdom and understanding. Which is once again, EXACTLY how the father gives.

www.biblegateway.com...

Can't have 2 masters.

Originally posted by flashesofblue
as Braveheart once said, via hollywood.." Freedom"
I was chatting to some young people the other day...and they were embracing freedom. They felt free to express their sexuality, free to accept their homosexuality, and one accepted his bisexuality. The conversation was for me liberating as I have been brainwashed directly and indirectly by social constructs of the virgin wedding night, the concept that two or more partners makes one sluttish, the construct that one must be hetrosexual, and if not...doom will befall the pervert...sluggish mental attitudes that perverted sexuality...thanks to religion of all types.

I embraced the youthful attitudes of freedom and the liberation they expressed with their personal empowerment of sexuality. Good on them. I so dont believe that the God of my understanding will condemm any of these beautiful people because they prefer same sex relationships.

That stuff is none of my business.

I love my God who loves the created ones, the children of my Father/Mother, my God. The ten commandments says nothing about homosexuality or virginity...dont kill. dont play up (adultry), dont formicate...whats that...be like some animals and have heaps of random sex not based on love, Love God, love your neighbours etc.

Sex is not love.

So much of our society is based on Christian perversion, and no offence to the writer Paul but Paul was one anal retentive, hung up sexually strung out fella who really did not write about women with respect or embrace freedom which in my opinion was one of Christs biggest messages..be free of traditional crap that binds people to self imprisonment and fear

Freedom

You've pretty much hit a topic I don't have too much opinion on. I'm simply not all that sure on it to be honest. I personally have nothing against people who do such things, but there are some obvious repercussions. I can only choose for myself.

As it is something that happens between consenting adults, I have no business in it. If it is good or bad, in the end it is completely between god and those people.

reply to post by badmedia

Traditions of men, and again this is even something Jesus talks about directly. Does he not work on the Sabbath? Oh yeah, and talks about traditions of men. And here you are yourself promoting those traditions of men. Same kinds of things Jesus went against, and you say you are of him.

There is a legitimate tradition and then there is an innovation that certain people want to establish as the future tradition. When Jesus was confronted with the accusation of allowing his disciples to break the Sabbath, His defense came from tradition. the difference between the tradition Jesus used and the tradition the pharisees used was that he used the Bible, and they were using one they had devised themselves.
I suppose that the Book of Exodus, to you is just a tradition of men and the RCC establishing the anti-sabbath is no less legitimate, since they are another tradition.
How about your quotation of Mathew? Did you know that is a tradition? Jesus did not assign the duty of scribe or historian to one of his disciples. The words of Jesus in the Gospels is not a legal transcript. These are traditions that were handed down from people who recited different lines attributed to him.

Jesus says DIRECTLY that you are to do what he says PERIOD. If you don't do them, then you are a fool.

Jesus also said to follow what the pharisees said because they sit in the seat of Moses. Jesus criticized the Pharisees because they did not even follow their own dictates. Jesus explained that he had an exemption because he was on a mission from God that transcended the normal day to day activities of ordinary people. Jesus was anointed to a particular calling that we can not claim for ourselves. Jesus was sent here from the presence of God to be the representative of God. We are not supposed to follow him to become God ourselves. We are to point to Christ as the way to know what God is all about.

[edit on 13-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus said to do what the pharisees said because they were hypocrites. He says to do as they say, not as they do. IE: They say do not kill, but they kill and thus are hypocrites.

Matthew 23

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Read the rest of the chapter and compare what he says of the pharisees to the church.

As Jesus brings understanding to the laws, he at the same time separates and is an example of what is a tradition and laws of men, and what is actually following the commandments. That is one of them.

In fact, the argument you are using the pharisees also used. Do you also believe that the child who swears should be killed? But you do not do this, so if it was just a matter of following it because it was in exodus and such, then you would be following all these laws. As you pick and choose between them, it only goes to show that you do not actually care that it was written, you stick to whichever ones you want.

And Jesus is using hyperbole there to prove a point, not because he is telling the Pharisees they should kill the child.

reply to post by badmedia
I can give you my stock answer about the Law.
Go ahead and say, "You are just making that up." because I did.
The ark of the covenant was a box that the stone tablets were stored in. They were written in indestructible stone, and if you were to open the box, they would be just as readable as they were when they were put in.
All the other laws were written, most likely, on papyrus paper and there was a holder on the outside of the box where they were stored.
Whatever we have of the supplemental to the stone version of the law, only exist as commentaries on the original version on papyrus, that is long gone.
We actually have different versions of the Ten Commandments in the commentary that we call the Torah.
So when Jesus is asked what the most important law is, he does not quote something he read. He is explaining what all the law is supposed to teach you.


[edit on 26-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


It is my understanding that the ark of the covenant was a weapon? And also that Moses broke the stone tablets himself out of anger upon returning from the mountain?

Such is not usually a topic I spend much time on, but that is how I remember it.

Aside from that.

Matthew 7

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Any "good" law is based on this. If you are imposing on another persons free will, then you are wrong. AKA murder, theft and so on.