Put away your crosses already

reply to post by jmdewey60


While you expect these things to happen in the future, what of those who have been persecuted over the past 2000 years, Jesus included?

It's as if you expect a shift in power, but yet the same powers and authorities of this world have existed and been in power since before Jesus. Which again, begs the question - how can christianity be legit while at the same time being that which does the persecuting, rather than that which is being persecuted?

Jesus says the prince of this world cometh etc. But according to christianity, I guess there is 2000+ years of christianity ruling the world before this happens?

If you are persecuted, then I will stick up for you. But the fact of the matter is, those who haven't gone along with the church, and all your accepted texts are based on that, have been persecuted. In the meantime, all you can say is that you expect it.

Do you deny that christianity is a new religion since the time of Jesus? Afterall, Jesus was a Jew, called king of jews and so forth, not a christian, not king of christians.

Is this new religion not in the name of christ?

Did not a 2nd shepherd(Paul) come along and change or add to the things Jesus taught?

What you wait for to happen, and expect to happen has already happened.

Even today Christians go around persecuting people. Go ask people in the middle east who persecutes them. Go look at all the Christians standing in line to join the military in order to break the commandment and kill. etc.

These things can't be ignored.

The president of the most powerful nation on earth claims to be a christian. You expect to be persecuted? By who?

[edit on 11-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by justamomma


This isn't about you. Christians (myself included) don't wear symbols of our faith to somehow strikeout at the Jewish community, sorry you interpret it that way. Do Jewish people wear a Jewish Star to strikeout at all the Christians and how wrong they are and how they have been mislead? No, it's a symbol of their faith. It isn't about me...

As for feeling guilty for the crusades and Inquisition....not really....and by that I mean not at all. I mean should I somehow feel guilty because of things the Roman Catholic Church did in the Middle Ages? What does that have to do with me? I wish many things didn't happen throughout recorded time but I'm not about to take the blame for them.

I'm really curious as to how you came to these conclusions.

reply to post by badmedia

It's as if you expect a shift in power, but yet the same powers and authorities of this world have existed and been in power since before Jesus. Which again, begs the question - how can christianity be legit while at the same time being that which does the persecuting, rather than that which is being persecuted?

You should read some of the old history books about the Protestant Reformation. (I have some if you want one) I do not consider my religion to be the same as the Roman Catholic religion. There has been a stand-off in the war that the RCC wages on the Saints. The balance of power is shifting and they will soon make their move. Why do you think there is this alliance with Mexico and merging the military forces? They are Catholic. Once martial law is declared, it will be the Alamo and the civil war combined. The goal is to have, whoever is left, will be going around with their crucifixes.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You should read some of the old history books about the Protestant Reformation. (I have some if you want one) I do not consider my religion to be the same as the Roman Catholic religion. There has been a stand-off in the war that the RCC wages on the Saints. The balance of power is shifting and they will soon make their move. Why do you think there is this alliance with Mexico and merging the military forces? They are Catholic. Once martial law is declared, it will be the Alamo and the civil war combined. The goal is to have, whoever is left, will be going around with their crucifixes.

Evil fighting evil. Thus the greater evil wins, as you have stated - it's all about power. This submission to power and authority is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus. Which you both carry. Jesus teaches there is no earthly authority that is valid, and he himself refused to become such a thing, and so he was killed. You aren't even supposed to call yourself rabbi, which is in reference to being an authority, not the literal word.



[edit on 11-5-2009 by badmedia]

Let me put it this way. Each side is playing the evil for each other, because each side is doing evil. And so it is a way of trying to get you to "save yourself" and walk the path of death and destruction, rather than follow the example of Jesus. For there will be wars and rumors of wars. Mind them not because the true way has already been shown and that is not it.

reply to post by badmedia

You might have difficulty telling the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant churches. It may have to do with a gradual breakdown of the protestants through too much lack of adversity from outside attacks.
Protestants never killed people just because they were Catholics. Catholics have killed plenty of people for nothing other than being protestant. (this does not include people who were killed in combat in the wars)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia

 

You might have difficulty telling the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant churches. It may have to do with a gradual breakdown of the protestants through too much lack of adversity from outside attacks.
Protestants never killed people just because they were Catholics. Catholics have killed plenty of people for nothing other than being protestant. (this does not include people who were killed in combat in the wars)

No, what I can't tell a difference in is someone who argues in favor over this church, that church, this brand of religon or that brand of religion, rather than sticking to the path and way that was given to them.

You are just using the actions of the catholic church for justification. You are pointing out their evils, while ignoring you own. You are claiming the same justification as they did in the time of Jesus when they would kill a man who killed. You are not justified.

This stuff is all designed to deceive you and get you to walk another path. If you can't see that, if you refuse to see and admit that, then there is nothing I can do for you.

I think you need a good hard dose of Matthew 7. The entire chapter, as it is saying exactly what I am telling you now, straight from the words of Jesus. Going to post a few verses, but it is all relevant to this.

www.biblegateway.com...

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To fight and such in these ways is to work in sin. You are not doing the will of the father, and you will not be recognized no matter how much you do it in the name of something.

So anyone claiming to be a Christian is automatically evil because someone else claiming to be a Christian was evil?
And if you argue that your brand of Christianity is OK because it is not like the major brand, then you are evil because you are judging someone else in order to make yourself seem OK?
I guess your solution is to just claim to be Jesus himself, that way you do not have to be associated with anyone who is merely a follower of Christ.

reply to post by badmedia


And how do you separate the teachings of Jesus from the other half of the bible (old testament)? This is an interesting practice I've witnessed before with some Christians. They hold the New Testament as all that matters, and totally disregard the old.
If we are truly to accept the bible as anything, surely we must be able to accept it as a whole; instead of disregarding the parts that dont suit our tastes.

I am not Christian...but I hold the cross as a sign of a righteous act of a very human man who saw that this is not the life to fight for. He not only preached this....he eventually showed he could practice this belief. The actions shows his divine nature and shows his love for all things.

Justamomma.....you have stereotyped all people who feel the cross means something to them. Even though I agree that the cross is not a idol and we are not to celebrate the death of Jesus but the life because it is the life that shows us footsteps to follow in, I think its all so wrong to worship the primal God that you do. (Since this thread is judging others, I will assume my judgments are welcome).

And Justamomma....if someone holds the cross dear to them...how can you say that everyone that holds the cross as meaningful is holding it dear for all the wrong reasons. I personal think your faith is wrong and you are mislead....but I havent picked you to pieces about your ego that you think you are absolutely right and that you have found God through your bloody scriptures of a demanding jealous God who seeks revenge and acts in primal ways.

For once....Im going to stick up for Christians here....because at least Jesus taught humbleness, love your enemies, find patients and forgive others for they do not know what they do, and taught a understanding to know we are all one, of the same blood, of the same body...the divine rests in us all.

I find your belief in the God to be far from the truth....but see how this works...that is just an opinion of mine...and I wont ram it down your throat that you are wrong.

Jesus got tied to a book he wasnt meant to be tied to, which is your jealous wrathful God who acts in primal ways but then tells us to try to perfect ourselves. I do wish people would separate Jesus's teachings from the God of Yahweh, mabey his teachings then would make sense to some who know, the Yahweh god is not of the same nature as what Jesus taught.

This thread really got under my skin because I dont believe in Yahweh as God...

And as much as people dont want to believe it....we do judge, it is how we process information to anticipate our own behaviors in the future. Also, in many near death experiences, people see their life with a divine eye, judging themselves and also judging all people that were in their life. I dont think its God that does the judging.....it is us, when we see our life through a eye not of flesh.

A cross is a old symbol....actually it goes back for being used to represent the great teachers who always seemed to be related to a certain age of the zodiac...hence, the cross representing the cross in a circle...the clock of the ages.

I say if your cross gives you comfort, keep your cross...but I would warn of worshiping Jesus as God...just as I would warn worshiping Yahweh as God.

I know, I am just heretical round and round....

but I would never go back to seeking God in the book....I have found Thee in me, in others, in nature and even in the places we call voids. God is soo much more then what any book can display....God is a force beyond what we can fathom. A book only limits Thee. So in my eyes, the ones that hold that Yahweh is God are no better then the ones that hold the cross dear to them as a symbol of their sacrifice for sins. They both are wrong ideas in my mind.

I find both ideas disturbing for our species and cant believe we still are teaching our children this stuff.

I teach my children that God is love and not capable of commanding killings or using the killings of babys to show power or prove a point. Why do I teach them this...because this is what Thee has shown me of Thee's nature. This is what my inner divine self shows me when I fast and seek thee in my deepest purest times.

So I agree...the cross should not be a symbol of a blood sacrifice....God needs no blood for sins...but I disagree with you displaying your faith as right.

I dont make many responses to you justamomma because I strongly disagree with your faith...but sense you judged others for their crosses...I am including my opinions about not only the blood sacrifice but also the God who demands worship. It was this god who demanded worship who is known to of started the blood sacrifices.

Best intentions, but I am sure most wont see it that way
LV

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Its not a matter of choosing what one likes out of the bible...but seeing what is divine and what is not. Do you really think God would act in primal ways such as we do, and then ask us to try to not act this way. Such as...Do not kill....but yet the god in the OT justifies his special people to kill the ones in the land that their 'god' has now said is not their no more. The god of the OT killed babies to show his power and prove a point....do you think Jesus would of acted in such a way?

There are two natures in the bible, one is primal, like our actions and one is divine, pure, and consistent.

I am not sure badmedia would totally agree with what I am saying...but I wanted to give my answer because I do dissect the bible as a work of man telling history. I guess for those who really take the book as 'words of god' accept that god would leave us a confusing and bipolar representation of thee self. In my belief, Jesus, the man, got tied to a book for all the wrong reasons.

The twists and turns that my belief has taken is not all things that I like. But things that I dont like, I have learned to deal with because I see a order in the nature of my belief, and I see a order in the way God works. The order does not sway...and involves us accepting life for what it is, cope with what we are given. Dont spend your life praying for God to change your life, assuming there was a mistake in your fate.

Sorry for answering a question not directed at me, but just adding a viewpoint that might explain why some people do feel that our intuition is within us for a reason. (which is opposite of what the bible says...it says, do not use your own understanding).

I find the bible to be the greatest book and yet the most dangerous book.

Now after my rude interruption...Ill await badmedias response...which I always find interesting.

My best,
LV

reply to post by jmdewey60


Judging others is of our nature. Our mind uses judgments as a reflection of what we want to be or not be. And in many near death experiences, people seem to judge themselves and all the people that were in their life.

I judge other girls that I meet to decide if they are a healthy influence for me and my family. I judge other mothers before I decide my children can go stay the night at their house. I weigh and measure (another term for judging) people so I can surround myself with people who will bring out the better in me and my children. I judge other children to see if I feel that they are the kind of kids my kids need to hang with.

Judging is natural. I dont use it in a insult kind of way, but a way to balance the kind of people I have in my life and to help me measure what kind of person I want to be and not want to be.

Some call it judging....I call it, weighing and measuring.

LV

reply to post by jmdewey60


I personally try to live as Jesus lived, but I had to drop the Christian label because I would get assumed that I accepted the mainstream belief of a blood sacrifice. So even though I hold Jesus as a great teacher who has showed me many keys and doors....I do not consider myself Christian any more.

I know I am jumping in on others posts...but its late and this thread made me want to vent a bit....and both things make me ramble.

LV

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So anyone claiming to be a Christian is automatically evil because someone else claiming to be a Christian was evil?
And if you argue that your brand of Christianity is OK because it is not like the major brand, then you are evil because you are judging someone else in order to make yourself seem OK?
I guess your solution is to just claim to be Jesus himself, that way you do not have to be associated with anyone who is merely a follower of Christ.

Not even close.

First off, if you have to be deceived in order to do evil, then you are obviously not evil at heart. Thus you are just poor in spirit and haven't found the truth yet. The "wicked" are those who know the truth, but purposely work to deceive others. As they are evil, they don't need to be deceived into doing it.

The problem has nothing directly to do with any brand of Christianity. It is the fact that you are putting the importance in defending a brand of Christianity rather than focusing on what is important that is.

Seriously, quit saying I am judging you. It's nothing but a lame copout. I guess now anytime people have disagreements the other person is judging them? Please quit with it.

It has nothing to do with claiming to be Jesus. No need to take things to extremes.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
reply to post by badmedia

 

And how do you separate the teachings of Jesus from the other half of the bible (old testament)? This is an interesting practice I've witnessed before with some Christians. They hold the New Testament as all that matters, and totally disregard the old.
If we are truly to accept the bible as anything, surely we must be able to accept it as a whole; instead of disregarding the parts that dont suit our tastes.

Which of the follow expressions are true and which ones are false?

1+4=5
1+5=2
4X5=20
4X10=4

How were you able to know which of these were true, and which of these were false?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Judging others is of our nature. Our mind uses judgments as a reflection of what we want to be or not be. And in many near death experiences, people seem to judge themselves and all the people that were in their life.

I judge other girls that I meet to decide if they are a healthy influence for me and my family. I judge other mothers before I decide my children can go stay the night at their house. I weigh and measure (another term for judging) people so I can surround myself with people who will bring out the better in me and my children. I judge other children to see if I feel that they are the kind of kids my kids need to hang with.

Judging is natural. I dont use it in a insult kind of way, but a way to balance the kind of people I have in my life and to help me measure what kind of person I want to be and not want to be.

Some call it judging....I call it, weighing and measuring.

LV

It's just a difference in making good judgments for oneself, which is the definition of having wisdom, and judging others. Having wisdom is certainly not a bad thing, and is certainly not a quality which should be frowned upon.

www.answers.com...

wisdom

1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
2. Common sense; good judgment: “It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things” (Henry David Thoreau).
3.
1. The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge: “In those homely sayings was couched the collective wisdom of generations” (Maya Angelou).
2. Wise teachings of the ancient sages.
4. A wise outlook, plan, or course of action.

To judge another is to punish them for their actions. Which means you have to put yourself over another person to do such a thing. At which point, your actions are likely a sin in itself and bad. Exactly why Jesus calls them hypocrites.

Big difference between having wisdom and judging others.

Oh, and I don't at all mind other people posting their opinions. Open discussion and only adds to it. And sometimes people say things that explain something better and that is always helpful.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

I know I am jumping in on others posts...

No, thanks for jumping in. That makes it easier to understand. So the idolatry is not so much a symbol, but the sacrificial aspect.

reply to post by badmedia

The problem has nothing directly to do with any brand of Christianity. It is the fact that you are putting the importance in defending a brand of Christianity rather than focusing on what is important that is.

OK, I will go with that right now. This is what I think is important and it is from Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This is a description of the three angel's message. It is told this way to make a point that this is an important message, sent from God and delivered to us by mighty angels to be declared to the world. It starts out saying, "Praise God."
You made a point to me earlier:

Maybe you should spend less time praising Jesus and trying to look like you are of him with fancy avatars and such, and more time gaining understanding?

I spend a lot of energy trying to find out how you can do that, exactly. (to praise God) What I have gained so far as an understanding of this is that by praising Jesus, we are praising God because he stands as the representation of God to the extent that when we see Jesus, we are seeing God. This is not a hollow shell of a form of God but an active spiritual existence that dates back before knowable time.
There is no other way, given to man, to understand the Father, but through the Son. We have something handed down to us (knowledge of Jesus) through a spiritual church that God has preserved through history. That is not the same as the earthly corporation calling itself the one true church. That is actually Babylon and we need to get out of that organization or system.
One of the things that make it Babylon is that they create a mystery surrounding the death of Christ. They make it something that they own and have the power to hold in their hands and dispense as they see fit.
So my "brand" of religion is the belief in the free gift that is available to everyone without the mediation of any human agency.
The only requirement is the ceremony of baptism, which is the sign that you need to be cleansed to be fit to join the congregation of the saints.


[edit on 12-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Protestants never killed people just because they were Catholics. Catholics have killed plenty of people for nothing other than being protestant. (this does not include people who were killed in combat in the wars)

Really? You need to read up some more on European history, the British Isles would be a good start, 16th-18th Centuries in particular.

reply to post by Supercertari
I am in the process of republishing the History of the Reformation in Scotland by Thomas M'Crie. He claims that no Catholics were ever killed in his country for nothing other than being a Catholic. I have not run across any counterclaims concerning that.

There were some agents of the Jesuits who were involved in plots to assassinate Elizabeth. They were not killed for being Catholic but for attempting the violent overthrow of the Sovereign.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by jmdewey60]