Draft/Armed Forces Question

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by dz
Ok. So, the millions Bush just threw at Selective Services is for nothing? And the fact that they're trying to fill the 20,000+ jobs that they'd need to actually draft if they want to before next year also means nothing?

First of all its bad board usage to quote entire posts, edit down. what you want to debate.

Second, the millions that Bush "threw away" is for the purpose of maintaining readiness in the event of a catastrophe in which we would need a draft.

Third, no one needs to draft anything. Those 20,000 jobs are positions they need to fill with recruits, and Im sure they will.

Now unless you have some contrary links or articles, I think Ive made my point.

www.datelinealabama.com...
www.guardian.co.uk...

Those 20,000 jobs are not recruits. They are board positions for SS.

Originally posted by dz

www.datelinealabama.com...
www.guardian.co.uk...

Two problems with your brilliant links.

The first one is an op ed piece and therefore proves nothing but the bias of the writer.

Furthermore, the second link had this to say. Note this echoes exactly what I said and puts you in the wrong

"If a military draft becomes necessary, approximately 2,000 local and appeal boards throughout America would decide which young men who submit a claim receive deferments, postponements or exemptions from military service, based on federal guidelines," it said.

Pentagon officials were adamant that there were no plans to bring back the draft.

"That would require action from Congress and the president and they are not likely to do that unless there was something of the magnitude of the second world war that required it,"

"if becomes necessary", "magnitude of WW2" "act of congress"

Im more than willing to hand down more debunkings if you so desire.

dz thought I would try something different and respond to your original question. No. No physical abuse, lots and lots of training and at times it might feel like torture but not any horror stories that you may have heard.

IF it looks like a draft is coming (insert any double meaning here) then by far joining and getting the job you want is much more preferable than what might be available as a draftee.

From the sound of it though it seems that you would stand a good chance of being in a position that may exempt you, you'll have to check with the boards about that along with CO.

Without any disrespect, for a "kid" I think you have done very well for yourself and show that your parents have done a pretty good job with you. I can think of quite a few parents that would be proud of child that managed to accomplish half of what you have been able to.

Not all old men ( I resemble that remark ) forget what it was like to be a "kid" and that one of the reasons we remember and honor those who gave their lives for us is so that we can have this discussion in the first place. I may not fully agree with you about your debt/obligation to society being taken care of by paying your taxes but I believe I understand your point of view.

I was thinking of sending this by u2u but I think you've done a pretty good job for yourself so far, so, I understand about not wanting to fight in what you see as an unjust war but can you picture an event or cause that would make you change your mind?

And yes I was in the military, except when I volunteered it still was boot camp and I can't imagine holding up a stress card to my DI

[Edited on 5/3/2004 by Duke_Nukem]

DZ,
Are you familiar with the doctrine of tacit consent?
www.libertyhaven.com...
Never mind the fact of paying your taxes, though just doing so may very well be proof of prior consent, This doctrine basically states that by accepting the benefits of society, you have agreed to accept both the benefits and also the responsibilities, the laws and procedures , of that society.

Your choise is to stop paying taxes(and end-up in prison), accept the responsibility(possibility of draft), or move to another country(where you must accept thier precepts).

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by scottsquared]

Originally posted by scottsquared
This doctrine basically states that by accepting the benefits of society, you have agreed to accept both the benefits and also the responsibilities, the laws and procedures , of that society.

Your choise is to stop paying taxes(and end-up in prison), accept the responsibility(possibility of draft), or move to another country(where you must accept thier precepts).

In other words.."we are the borg, resistance is futile....."

My question to THAT would be "Uhhhh..what has society ever given me, except a gigantic headache and crowded roads everywhere I go"

It seems to me as if DZ has worked hard for everything he has and has been given relatively LITTLE if nothing at all from "society".

My opinion still stands. Why should he have to give up his lifelong plans simply because some robot steps in and tells him he has to ? This isn't the way I feel America is supposed to be. This is akin to nazi germany, simply sweeping in and taking you away from the life you've known and planned on. I can't believe anybody would think this was ok.

Originally posted by KayEm

Originally posted by scottsquared
This doctrine basically states that by accepting the benefits of society, you have agreed to accept both the benefits and also the responsibilities, the laws and procedures , of that society.

Your choise is to stop paying taxes(and end-up in prison), accept the responsibility(possibility of draft), or move to another country(where you must accept thier precepts).

In other words.."we are the borg, resistance is futile....."

My question to THAT would be "Uhhhh..what has society ever given me, except a gigantic headache and crowded roads everywhere I go"

It seems to me as if DZ has worked hard for everything he has and has been given relatively LITTLE if nothing at all from "society".

My opinion still stands. Why should he have to give up his lifelong plans simply because some robot steps in and tells him he has to ? This isn't the way I feel America is supposed to be. This is akin to nazi germany, simply sweeping in and taking you away from the life you've known and planned on. I can't believe anybody would think this was ok.

What benefits? 1. The bill of rights
2. The Constitution
3. The right of Habeus Corpus
4. Equal protestion under the law
5. Protection from enemies foriegn and domestic
6. The plain fact that you can view and contribute to forums such as this one.

Any nation is best judged by it's treatment of it's least fortunate members. Admittedly, we aren't doing as well as we have done in the past, but compaired to the rest of the world, we aren't doing so badly. We do have social security, public defenders, welfare, food stamps, infrastructure, aid to dependant families, and subsidies galore.

It is the responsibility of every cititzen to understand thier rights, to actively persue the continuation of said rights, to VOTE, and to speak-up when thier rights are trampled , subjugated, or deminished.

We get the government we deserve by not acting!!!

Please do not make me laugh.

Most of those items you listed are as far as I can see, mostly lip service and nothing more.

With the exception of "the right to post in forums such as this one".

All I hear when somebody posts something such as you have, Scottsquared is that society owes you nothing but you owe THEM everything.

Anyway, not to get OT again..(sorry for that) I still maintain that DZ has worked hard for the life he has planned. I still say it reminds me of nazi germany that outside forces are allowed to just simply swoop in and deny him what he has worked his life for.

Originally posted by scottsquared
What benefits? 1. The bill of rights
2. The Constitution
3. The right of Habeus Corpus
4. Equal protestion under the law
5. Protection from enemies foriegn and domestic
6. The plain fact that you can view and contribute to forums such as this one.

Yes, those are benefits, but nearly all of those you just listed have been kicked to the curb at one point or another-- sidelined for the sake of the moment.

This is not to mention the number of Presidential Executive Orders, some of which give government agencies (i.e. FEMA) total dictatorial power in the event of National Emergency. These things throw the balance of power, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights right out the window. Not to mention two other key factors: 1) It leaves the country open to being blindsided by this control via any large-scale 'Emergency', and 2) There is no mention of when and how power would be handed back to the people.

See link

Any nation is best judged by it's treatment of it's least fortunate members. Admittedly, we aren't doing as well as we have done in the past, but compaired to the rest of the world, we aren't doing so badly. We do have social security, public defenders, welfare, food stamps, infrastructure, aid to dependant families, and subsidies galore.

"Money for war but can't feed the poor." -Tupac

Social security, and most likely welfare, will be dead and gone within our lifetime.

We get the government we deserve by not acting!!!

This is my all-serious question: What happens when the choice for the people is narrowed down to the lesser of two evils? I don't like Bush, but I like Kerry less and less as the days pass-- so what do we do then?
(this is not posed just to you, its open for discussion.)

Originally posted by Cappa
This is my all-serious question: What happens when the choice for the people is narrowed down to the lesser of two evils? I don't like Bush, but I like Kerry less and less as the days pass-- so what do we do then?
(this is not posed just to you, its open for discussion.)

Cappa that's something I constantly ponder. I feel the same as you about both candidates. But what to do?

Here's where the problem lies: we're but 2 people in this nation. Now granted we're not the only ones that feel this way, but what does the majority feel? You see, the problem at hand is that both candidates are not good. How is this resolved? Put in one that we like. Here's the problem though: money. Together, I doubt we have enough to fund a candidate. So we're back to our original problem: only 2 people. How do we remedy this? We need more people.

So here's our solution: inform. Inform people you know about the candidates and why you don't like. I have an effective speaking class right now, and we do a different style speech each week. When that class first started, I'd say about half of the class either didn't care about Bush or somewhat liked him. My first speech: The Patriot Acts. That got the class thinking. My second speech: The Bush Administration. Now the entire class dislikes Bush. And it's not just a little 'ok i dont like him', it's a 'that president is terrible, i refuse to vote for him'. So now I've informed 30 something people who will go on to tell their friends, and so on, and so on..

The more you inform, the more people we have.

Capa,
Firstly, I am not jumping to the defense of the shrub admin. I am a disenfranchised American as well. I have also served in the US Army, Infantry,have you? I agree with you that our rights are on the decline, I said as much in my last post. We still have more rights than the average Iraqi, Suddanese, North Korean, Russian, etc., etc.

Sure, everything changes during a state of emergancy or under Martial law. These are NEVER states allowed to be anything but temporary. Do I fear that the li'l shrub would try to use a state of emergancy to attempt to maintain his grasp on power or to further his twisted goals?:yes. I know that Congress would never stand for such shinanigans.

Sccial Security and welfare will NOT be gone any time soon. Is either enough for a recipient to survive?:No. The facts of our ever changing economy will dictate changes in the way both are managed, funded, and distributed.

Choice for President has always come down to a two horse race. The primary system is designed to weed down the list of candidates from a field of many to one, supposedly stronger, candidate. To answer your lesser of two evils question, NO, you don't have any other choise. Voting for Ralph Nader as a vote of concience is just a sure way to help re-elect weasel-boy. Besides, Ralph is at least as elitist/pompus as Kerry and shrubya combined.

Personally, I would perfer a parlimentary form of government to our two party republic. There has been increased pressure over the last few elections to add more party choice. The voters first must elect more non-dems/repubs.

DZ, Participation in the process is the ONLY way to effect change. RUN FOR OFFICE!!! To reduce the candidates to "$$$" is simplistic at best. You are going about things in the right way. Stay informed, look at both sides to every argument, question authority, vote, stick to your principles, accept that you cannot change the world in a day, and stay to the moral high ground regardless of the opposition's tactics.

In the end, the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not YOU lead a good and moral life. Seek enlightenment! Live, Love, and Learn! Failing that, shoot yourself before evil can recruit you to the dark side.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by scottsquared]

Originally posted by scottsquared
In the end, the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not YOU lead a good and moral life. Seek enlightenment! Live, Love, and Learn! Failing that, shoot yourself before evil can recruit you to the dark side.

Leading a good life will always return good things

what you detest you become. I have set the global stage the U.S. is a Nazi deathcamp. there is a fine line between patriot and terrorist. and the U.S. claims there is no such thing as a patriot. The beast is here clad in red white and blue. preaching hypocrocy in text book fasion

Originally posted by scottsquared
Firstly, I am not jumping to the defense of the shrub admin. I am a disenfranchised American as well. I have also served in the US Army, Infantry,have you? I agree with you that our rights are on the decline, I said as much in my last post. We still have more rights than the average Iraqi, Suddanese, North Korean, Russian, etc., etc.

I serve currently, though not in the Infantry. And yes, we still have more rights than average Iraqi's, etc.. But yet, there are other countries that have more rights than we do. Furthermore, no one asked us to go into Iraq (that doesn't make Sadaam any less of a tyrant, of course), and the people of Iraq, Sudan, Russia, etc. don't necessarily hate the corner of the world that they live in. Very few countries disallow their people to leave (i.e. Cuba), and in Cuba's case, Castro gives much to his people (free college, health care, etc.).

Sccial Security and welfare will NOT be gone any time soon. Is either enough for a recipient to survive?:No. The facts of our ever changing economy will dictate changes in the way both are managed, funded, and distributed.

This site talks about Bush's plans to privatize social security. If this happens, at any point in time, SS could become subject to any fault that a private company and private investment could. In the event of a stock market crash, SS is dead. In the event the private company/companies in charge of SS begin to lose money, then SS gets stripped, and there would be no influence of law to help fix it.

Choice for President has always come down to a two horse race. The primary system is designed to weed down the list of candidates from a field of many to one, supposedly stronger, candidate. To answer your lesser of two evils question, NO, you don't have any other choise.

Voting for Ralph Nader as a vote of concience is just a sure way to help re-elect weasel-boy. Besides, Ralph is at least as elitist/pompus as Kerry and shrubya combined.

Yes, I hope no one votes for Nader, because, as you said, it would do little but take away from Kerry and help Bush (just as bad as not voting).

Personally, I would perfer a parlimentary form of government to our two party republic. There has been increased pressure over the last few elections to add more party choice. The voters first must elect more non-dems/repubs.
[/quotes]

That appears the most sound idea. Although I highly doubt that would ever happen (the U.S. gov't seems to bear some disdain for the way the British gov't operates).

Please God! And I mean my God, not your(colective) God.

Let's not get into that whole privatization of Social Security thing! God forbid! That's for another forum.

Cappa, thanks for the excellent reply!!

Originally posted by Jaypeth
what you detest you become. I have set the global stage the U.S. is a Nazi deathcamp.

What are you rambling on about? Are you capable of providing links or do you just love to be the god awful riddler. "oh look at me I talk like a poem written by cokeheads".

How have you set the global state for Nazi deathcamps? And even if we are in for a bleak future your still wrong because techinically they would be American Deathcamps unless those rabid Nazis Rise again!

Detest what you have become and either add to the disccusion or leave.

Originally posted by dz
I'm sorry, but if you want to have a legit debate, fine. Pick a topic, and we shall debate. But don't go assuming I'm some stupid kid just because I don't want to die and want to live a successful life. You want to go to some stupid unjust war and get yourself killed in the name of patriotism, go for it. I'd rather be called a coward, live, and do something in this world that actually does make a difference for the better.

And there are people (myself included) who are willing to die to protect people like you, and the American way of life. Fact is, if it weren't for the military, your rooftop-shouted claims of success wouldn't even exist.

Instead of refuting any claims that you're spoiled, you happily concreted them....Frankly, it strikes me that you're an instance where I wholeheartedly agree with mandated military service - perhaps Israel hasn't got it so wrong. It might be good for you to sleep on the ground for a few nights and get up to do some pushups.

Just my .02...And jsobecky's comment definitely brought a grin to my paltry face.

Dz,

Do ignore the "If it's good enough for me, it should be good enough for you" folks.

Some people just can't handle that the younger generation thinks differently then they do.

Generation gap is all it is. Same thing with music, clothes, etc.

And please, if I ever start betraying MY age by spouting that kind of crap, shoot me.

Oops..I forget, you're opposed to violence, nevermind, I'll find someone else to shoot me

Originally posted by mauskov
And there are people (myself included) who are willing to die to protect people like you, and the American way of life. Fact is, if it weren't for the military, your rooftop-shouted claims of success wouldn't even exist.

And that's why you're in the military.

I believe in the American way of life, and that's why I'm doing my best to achieve it. I don't believe in any of the views of this Administration, nor do I believe attacking countries and destroying their entire way of life solves anything.

I can't justify dying for something I don't believe in. You, can.

Originally posted by mauskov
Instead of refuting any claims that you're spoiled, you happily concreted them....Frankly, it strikes me that you're an instance where I wholeheartedly agree with mandated military service - perhaps Israel hasn't got it so wrong. It might be good for you to sleep on the ground for a few nights and get up to do some pushups.

Why? Instead of blabbing and calling me spoiled, tell me how I am. Instead of saying that I should be sent to war, tell me why you think I should. How does it strike you that I'm an instance in which mandated military service would be good? What, do you think I don't appreciate what I have? No, I whole-heartedly do. Everyday I do. That's why I don't want to throw it all away in the name of a buffoon with a title.

Originally posted by mauskov
Just my .02...And jsobecky's comment definitely brought a grin to my paltry face.

jsobecky is a fool, and you thinking his comments are good are a testimony to your intelligence. He made no good claims to back up his reasoning; he only decided to attack me or xeno.

Originally posted by dz
And that's why you're in the military.

I believe in the American way of life, and that's why I'm doing my best to achieve it. I don't believe in any of the views of this Administration, nor do I believe attacking countries and destroying their entire way of life solves anything.

I can't justify dying for something I don't believe in. You, can.

It's got nothing to do with my willingness-or lack of - to die for something I do or do not believe in. It has everything to do with the fact that yes, it's a decision I've made for myself. It's not the same decision to be made for everyone else.

But in a country (and I can already smell all of the contemptful anti-americans coming like vulture to carrion) that has so clearly provided you so much and given you a chance to make such a clear success of yourself, the idea that you don't even feel a bit of ...how do i put this lightly? ... a bit of a desire to give something back. That's what disgusts me.

But then again, it's America. You're allowed to do that, that's what makes it great: You can be frightened about the draft and spout all your successes, and besides my own ranting, I can't do much about it. I'd just hope that my chronological peers would be at least able to recognise that it might be time to give something back to a land that's given you so much.

jsobecky is a fool, and you thinking his comments are good are a testimony to your intelligence. He made no good claims to back up his reasoning; he only decided to attack me or xeno.

Clearly, my intelligence is dictated by what I find amusing and what I do not.
I'm sure my rabid patriotism has already flipped a few wigs: Horror of horros, people might actually have to be thankful for what they have. Why not at least demonstrate it? Feh.

Mauscov,

I agree with your sentiment, no real growth can be attained without sacrifice. I also am a proponent of mandatory national service, one or two years, just to get everybody trained. Conciencious objectors would be assigned to logistical support.

We don't have national service. DZ is not compelled to join the military. He is however required to register for the draft. A draft cannot be initiated without an act of congress. Should that sad day come, and should DZ's number come up, then he would have a decision to make.

DZ, you know what those choices would be. This is a hypothetical discussion about a very serious, entirely possible senario. You will NOT know what to do until you are faced with a decision of this magnitude. All of the intellectual bull s... aside, you have a choice. Now THAT is worth something!