We must end the rising "culture of negativity" (SOLUTION POSTED)

This topic should be named: "We were told to introduce more censorship, but we don't know how to tell the members of the site...so we make it sound foggy..." "We must end the rising culture of negativity" - sounds A LOT like communist titles from the era of Lenin and other criminals. Statement actually means nothing, but they could arrest you if you don't do what they ask...

V.I.P. Qualifications

Originally posted by thewind
Well, I don't really know if I am to be any kind of an authoritative entity here to qualify myself to respond to this issue, for I have only been at ATS for about a month or so, but I'll give it a go.

Being a member of ATS, no matter how long you've been with us, is all the authority you need.

Some typical fool said :
Really outlandish threads are either ignored, ridiculed until the person shuts up and goes away, or are lampooned internally in the thread itself and treated like the joke it is.

All indications are that free speech is dying everywhere, so it should come as no suprise it's happening here as well ...

Originally posted by Parallex
I will suggest however, that the rising 'negativity' you are seeing, is also due to the polarisation of global society.

TO CONTROL OR NOT TO CONTROL? That is the question folks.


Reply By SkepticOverlord:

This isn't so much an issue of control, as it is of noticing a problem that may prevent some members from posting their best. We've already seen many comments in this thread that members have backed-off from making contributions precisely because of the problem outlined in the opening post.

I understand what you are saying sir, but I disagree. It does boil down to control. Do you implement measures to control the trash posters, or not? We all know the consequences of doing so, and we all can see what happens when you don't. Catch 22 methinks?

In my experience, the only way I have ever seen this effectively combated is for an 'Inner Circle' Forum to be created. This forum is readable by all, but locked (for posting) to anyone not part of the inner circle. The inner circle consists of people who are proven ATS suitable, capable of debating and theorising in an objective and clear manner, and won't go mad! If they do, they are removed from the inner circle until proven otherwise. (To remove someone in this fashion is subject to vote by the rest of the ATS community)

The main forum remains the domain of the 'nominal' user, whilst the inner circle forum is a 'clean room' of conspiracy theory activity. This produces two forums - the nominal forum brings in the traffic, new topics, and new users. Whilst the inner circle forum allows the topics to be dissected, weighed and measured in a controlled environment.

I hear you all cry, "Who gets to be in the Inner Circle?" - I would suggest a limited number of people, possibly 30 people ish. These people are voted for by the other users, and the 30 people with the most votes get into the inner circle forum. A kind of ATS House of Representatives. Anyone can get there - it just takes effort and clear headed conspiracy theory attention. (And a good measure of being 'liked' and respected by the ATS community at large).

I'm full of ideas me.

The Para.

I don't post too much, but spend a lot of time reading.
When you first get here, you're excited to be with people who share your similar interests. (Almost) everybody here is searching for something, that something is truth to a certain degree.
I bashed some threads because I'm really tired of the same stupid stories with a different embellishment over and over again, and seeing the same patterns that develop inevitably into a hoax later repeating themselves time after time.
This could be great: could be a place for some serious debate and hopefully reach more mature conclusions about a lot of things. But I get tired of seeing "OMG I can fly when nobody sees me". The saddest part is that this kind of threads always get a lot of replies, whereas intelligent, meaningful topics get violently forgotten. I guess "OMG I can fly..." it's a lot catchier than "Advanced propulsion physics" but which one makes a real contribution?

Originally posted by 27jd
Label those who seek to do nothing but bring negativity with a big "PLEASE DO NOT FEED ME, I'M A TROLL" on their sig line, with no ability on their part to remove it, lol. A kind of badge of shame that they must wear until they shape up, or everybody just ends up putting them on ignore.

I was gonna vote for "leave things as they are" but I am kinda loving this idea!

"Do not feeds me I is a stoopid Troll"

If a mod thinks someone's being unreasonably 'negative' and chooses to signify this to a user via the points system or whatever other policing mechanism, simply message the user via U2U.

If the ATS staff decide to enforce 'negativity controls' unfairly, then it will only serve to silence certain opinions on a subject which essentially kills the honesty of a discussion.

I've seen my posts disappear with no notice of why it happened in cases where I thought my comment was contributing to the discussion resulting in the thought that a discussion is being censored. Why would I want to be a part of a secretly censored community? I might just leave if I felt like my voice was being unfairly subdued.

There are so many 'posting guidelines' that I'll admit I have chosen not to read them all.
I think I'm a reasonable person and when I decide to post in a thread I try not to make myself look like an idiot.
If my viewpoint contradicts an OP, that doesn't mean I'm being negative.

Finally, in some cases, when I want nothing else but a proclamation to be true, I might crank up the ole 'devil's advocate' stance in order to properly 'vet' a subject. This is not being negative, but depending on the thickness of one's skin, it could be seen as such. See the topic on having a backbone.

The friend or foe section in the user profile area says it all; an enemy isn't just a blatant enemy, but it is someone who tests your own viewpoint and helps you to keep honest and avoid getting carried off into la-la land by not checking yourself.

That said, blatant negativity and personal attacks are clearly immature discussion behaviors and should be treated as such.

reply to post by finemanm


The problem is that a lot of people lump in those who criticize Zionism, which is pretty much a secular geopolitical and economical movement with those that are indeed racist bigots who hate jews. There is a not so subtle difference, as the former is a conspiracy theory and the latter is a prejudice. Biden is, from his own words a Zionist, yet not a jew. Zionists hide behind the antihate laws that protect the jewish peoples, using the holocaust as a pavlovian conditioning protecting them from criticism. That jig is up imo.

There are, last I heard, around 18 million jews in the world. There are probably only a few thousand hardcore zionists. Ironically the Zionists are as big a danger to the Jewish people as the Iranians, the Syrians and all the other Arabs, as history has shown us they are not at all above sacrificing jews for their own agendas.

Here race, unless you're a zionist hiding behind a jew, is irrelevant.

As for Isreal, it saddens me that race wars are being fueled by the same people on both sides to have a pretext for igniting bigger conflicts and to keep humanity from cooperating and seing that, in reality, we are all one, regardless of labels and genetics. One of the dirty little secrets about Isreal is that the jews themselves are starting to see beyond the manipulation and, last time I heard, there was a sizeable exodus of them, fed up of being as much cannon fodder as the palistinians, albeit with better installations.

Thats my take on this, and many people who post regarding Isreal are developing a similar viewpoint. I am not a racist, my own genetic background is so varied I'm surprised I wasn't born with webbed feet.

As a newer member, this thread has prompted my first post...after reading every post on this topic (yes, each one and they were all awesome!), a few observations leap to mind...

1. There is an elevated tone of negativity/defensiveness. Or more specifically, a kind that is often seen elsewhere, but sparingly here. I understand there are more users drawn to the site due to expanding popularity, and perhaps misunderstanding what they would find here, are simply repeating behavior that is tolerated and even encouraged elsewhere. Those who engage in this behavior do so for effect. Ask yourself, do you ever flame someone and then just leave? Of course not. You do it to provoke a response, then wait to see the results. Imagine if you pull the lever in a pinball game and no lights go off, the bumpers won't bump and the flippers won't flip? Would you keep feeding it quarters? You would leave that machine and go to one that works. That is simply what most of the extremely negative posters are seeking - a response. It may sound trite, but when your mom told you to just ignore bullies, she was (mostly) right. (Obviously there are exceptions to this as there are to everything) For the more extreme t&c violations however, a zero tolerance policy could act as deterrent to flagrant violations. One "extreme" strike and you're out. That said...

2. The community here on ATS strikes me as the most well behaved, well spoken, diverse and engaged crowd that I've experienced out there. I am only a lowly newb, but I am constantly impressed with the discussions, ideas and civility (with some exceptions depending on topic) that I've seen here. Adding more rules, points schemes and/or ratings systems would only confuse members, inhibit truly honest self-expression, encourage "cliques" and have highly undesirable, unintended consequences....Think of this place like nature itself. It's best to leave it alone. Every time we humans mess around with nature, something really bad (and unexpected) usually occurs. Allow a little social Darwinism to take place and ATS will evolve past this temporary growth phase. That said...

3. You've gotten this far ATS, intact and without escalating stages of Draconian measures being taken to enforce "fairness", protect "feelings" or ensure "balance" (as far as I know). Perhaps a little stepped up enforcement/re-clarification of the existing rules/moderation and, as one far earlier post brought up, a little more editorial help with the thread titles would help users steer clear of those intentional "waste of time" threads. These threads usually are easy to spot; they are vague, sensational or outlandish in nature/claim, use maximum hyperbole and are provocative yet intolerant of any dissent.

To sum up, times are weird, difficult and moving far too fast in who knows what direction. People are starting to explore "extreme" new ideas because we are living in extreme circumstances and ATS is the home for many of these ideas/theories/conspiracies. Under such duress, people tend to hold fast to their preconceived notions of the world, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. However, I still believe that most will eventually see the "800lb gorilla" in the room...even if it has to sit on them in order to get their attention.

Thanks so much for listening to a newb....this is my first post mostly because so many here express exactly what I am thinking and far more eloquently than I would've....but this topic gave me the boost I needed to jump in. Thanks everyone!

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

This is it in a nutshell

"The culture of the offended" I go around worring who I am going to offend

It seems that all too many of us, and I include myself in this at times, are looking to be offended, and there are a few people who are looking to offend (they call it being antiPC, it's not, it's being rude.)

This I feel is a reflection of todays culture. Being rude is called "keeping it real", or somesuch nonsense.

Thank you for the response, I try my best to be polite, MY post show that, although my sense of humor gets me in trouble on the forum sometimes.

I wish the mods, who I adore,

Would be allowed to lighten up in that area.

[edit on 043131p://bTuesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Making contact with loving extraterrestrial energies

This is what I mean. And I applaud IgnoreTheFacts for his/her post.

I have there thoughts on this subject:

1. New visitors
Most of the problems I have seen are with members who have joined more recently; especially in the last 3 months.

I think due to it's size and Google indexing that the site is more visible.
If you do a search on a conspiracy subject ATS is near the top every time, therefore more people are finding ATS casually.

I also wonder if there attacks from other sites such as Fark, people who try and play games and wind people up.

As someone pointed out the points can cause problems for new people, trying to gain points for access to RATS etc
I started some threads just to gain points when I first joined.

2. Alert button

If you press the alert button you see the following text at the bottom of the u2u message area

We encourage members to alert us to posts that might be a potential problem. However, please be aware that this feature is intended for flagrant violations of our Terms & Conditions such as trouble makers, insults, inappropriate content, and potential copyright violations. This feature is not intended to alert staff to minor issues like 1-liner or off-topic posts.

Many of these problems start with minor trouble such as 1 liner posts and sailing a bit to close to wind with the T&C 's. Perhaps if moderators were stricter with more minor things as well it may set the tone.

What is the definition of a trouble maker?

Lot's of sites have T&C's which aren't enforced so many people ignore them. When people join does there need to be an extra comment that the T&C's are enforced on this site.
If someone is banned for a while are they redirected to the T&C's page when they try and access the site? It may remind them.

Do we need more mods?

3. Limiting access

RATS is only for RATS members, could other controversial areas of the site be made members only?
e.g. Religion, Politics, UFO's, 911

If someone wants access these areas then this is given automatically.
But if they cause trouble then they could be banned completely for a certain time just in that area where they caused trouble.
It seems that some people cause trouble in only one area.


Keep up the good work!

Originally posted by greshnik
This topic should be named: "We were told to introduce more censorship, but we don't know how to tell the members of the site...so we make it sound foggy..." "We must end the rising culture of negativity" - sounds A LOT like communist titles from the era of Lenin and other criminals. Statement actually means nothing, but they could arrest you if you don't do what they ask...

ew you may have hit the nail right on the head.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Yet there is such a thing as the losing side of a debate. There is such a thing as truth. When one side condemns itself willingly to ridicule by beating a dead horse there isn't much left. What puzzles me is why is ATS tolerant of certain posting patterns that fly in the face of both evidence and reason? Chemtrails is a good example, perhaps the best example on this site, because here we have something that is creeping up into the group mind, that has been verified and confirmed repeatadly in mainstream media and yet is framed as a hypothesis here.

Perhaps ATS is more interested in the mystery than the actual discovery? Because, from my perspective it seems that ATS is going after the reaction, labeling it as the problem, and leaving the root cause, the by now obvious disinformation posts, festering as an open wound on these otherwise fine forums.

Do you want to embrace reality, Mr Overlord, or do you want to deny it in your permanent skepticism? This is an honest question, what in heaven's name is your intent with this site? Some things are indeed real, observable, verifiable and, consequently, unchallengeable. And somewhere along the line this idea of "reality" seems to have vanished from ATS. Do you guys here share a Karl Rove complex of "we are the deciders of reality"?

In all fairness, the above is only noticeable in a few key topics, but where it is noticeable it is glaring.

I only visit four sections of the board right now which aren't that bad... probably should just let it pass for a bit longer.

Increase ignore from 10 people to 100. That would be a good start. Ive brought this up before and people seem to have a problem with being on ignore lists, sets the trolls off. I noticed the ones that got all cranky over me mentioning it were actually people that would be on ignore. Funny how that works.

People flame or make bad remarks and then someone flames back. Having to see these negative / dumb people constantly has turned some members into angry members or will just lash right out from the get go. When they first started posting they were not like that. Its quite obvious 10 people is not enough for a site this big.

If I can ignore who I want to theres no reason for flames I dont have to read their posts.

People bring up this whole deny ignorance thing in this discussion too which Ive found has turned into a punch line for everything they dont agree with. If I catch someone not researching something and quoting it as fact I dont want to read anything that person posts anyhow. Or if they are negative or troll posting.

Denying ignorance means learning for yourself. Researching for yourself. Not listening to people spread lies and misinformation allday.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Memysabu]

Originally posted by alienanderson

Originally posted by 27jd
Label those who seek to do nothing but bring negativity with a big "PLEASE DO NOT FEED ME, I'M A TROLL" on their sig line, with no ability on their part to remove it, lol. A kind of badge of shame that they must wear until they shape up, or everybody just ends up putting them on ignore.

I was gonna vote for "leave things as they are" but I am kinda loving this idea!

"Do not feeds me I is a stoopid Troll"

This would give a new meaning to the word 'subjective'...and since you cannot quantify it (reasonably anyways...), you will run into MORE issues going this route...


And BTW - you went from 'leave it be' to a 'scarlet letter'..?





How 'bout this...the same group with that labeling power can put it to use by labeling all asinine threads...you start posting about magic fairies, angels/demons, you get a label such as, "Fantasy Freak" or "Gullible Groupy"...


Sound fair..?

Oh goody. Does this mean I can return to speaking of spreading love and light again without being told to shut up we are sick of it!

I cant see the problem with saying love and light at the end of a post but recently its been looked down upon and labelled new age and fluffy, so I stopped.

Love and Light All

Originally posted by marg6043
Well this problem most be in threads or forums that I do not visit because so far I have seen no more that the right amount of debating, unless by the time I get to the forums the "offensive" posts has been erased.

Ditto.

Also - If someone here gets obsessively obnoxious with me ... obviously abusive towards me .... I'll use 'ignore'. Or I'll hit the 'alert' button as we have been told to do ...

Hey SO .. your thread about getting a back bone was spot on.
No need to change or 'retool' what was said. It was just fine.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ditto again.

Don't we have enough bureaucracy in the real world to deal with?

How about a bit more member stewardship?